Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Alf Bentley]

16 minutes ago, Strokes said:

We are a net contributor to the EU, of course it is a financial drain.

 

If you base your decision on (a) narrow self-interest; and (b) a short-term perspective, that's undoubtedly true.

Similarly, London & the SE could turn round to the rest of the UK and say: we're net contributors, you're a financial drain, so we're leaving the UK.

 

We're net contributors as EU funds are redistributed with more going to help poorer member states to invest and develop. That benefits not just them but also the richer states: as they develop they're able to buy more of our goods/services etc.

Not everything is well-invested, of course. But I went on family holidays to Ireland in the 70s and travelled alone in Spain in the early 80s. Both countries had much, much lower living standards than the UK then. They seemed like 3rd world compared to here. Their development benefits everyone, including us.

 

Mortgages could be seen as a financial drain viewed purely in the short-term, but a valuable investment in the longer-term.

Most people of working-age are net contributors - to children, pensioners, those unable to work etc.

Edited 1 November 2017 by Alf Bentley

[Innovindil]

1 hour ago, Fox Ulike said:

Put that on the side of a bus.I would have no problem then...  

 

What anyone believes in the 'long run' is of little relevance. I believe in the long run we'll experience a slow decline, and people won't put up with it. So we'll rejoin the EU, making the whole thing utterly pointless. But like you, I have no evidence to back this up.

 

All we know is that we were told we'd be better off. Some people voted for this. And there's no evidence that we will be. What happens five or ten years down the line is no justification one way or the other.

 

I know i'm probably a bit late to the party here: But why did you vote Brexit? Especially if you had no illusions that we'd be better off after exiting the EU.

Because I was given 2 options. I chose the one that was best for me, purely for selfish reasons. The "we'd be better off" didn't come into it. 

[fuchsntf]

1 hour ago, davieG said:

Holding another referendum on Brexit would be the most "divisive" moment in British politics for more than 100 years, Lord Hague has said.

The former foreign secretary warned of the risk of a "hate-filled" campaign if the government attempted to revisit the issue and tell people "they were wrong" when voting to leave in 2016.

He said he would be "more likely" to vote leave if there was another poll.

"You can't go around in circles. We have to stick to the decision."

Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, he said the UK's negotiations with the EU had taken a "fairly predictable" course up to now and it was incumbent on both sides to try and secure a breakthrough.

Lord Hague, a Remain supporter who left frontline politics in 2015, said that while quitting the EU without a deal could not be ruled out, he believed it would not be a good outcome.

Brexit negotiations to resume next week

Labour demands Brexit studies release

Neither the Conservatives nor Labour support another referendum on the terms of the UK's exit but MPs are demanding a vote in Parliament on the deal negotiated by Theresa May's government - although this is unlikely to prevent the UK from leaving in March 2019.

The Lib Dems have said the public are entitled to change their mind and should be given a final say on the withdrawal agreement in what they have claimed would be the "first referendum on the facts".

But the former Conservative leader suggested that would be calamitous for the country, given that more people had voted to leave the EU in June 2016 - when 17.4 million people, or 51.9% of those turning out, backed Leave - than had voted for any government in British history.

"It would be the most divisive event in this country since the arguments over Irish home rule at least, to try and go back over this issue," he said.

"Imagine going back to the people of this country and saying 'you got this wrong in the referendum, you may have turned out in record numbers and most of the country voted to leave but nevertheless we think you got it wrong and we are going to run it again'.

"Imagine the hate-filled campaign that would divide this country. I do not think that is a price worth paying."

The issue of whether to grant Ireland self-government within the UK dominated British politics for decades during the late 19th and early 20th Centuries.

 

For my own beliefs and opinions, I wanted the descision to fall on the remain side.

Major point, you can improve and change platforms and issues, when you are inside and part of the organisation.

Lies and deceit, British politicians, can handle themselves, it was a futile Silly argument that Eu politics were even

More deceitful.Of course the EU has problems, also the individual counties within, but it was the idea of pulling and

Changing things together....I believed in. I never thought or believed for one moment we would have instant solutions,

in fact accepted, it would take more than my life-time to see electorate Satisfying changes, but being part of the that

Togetherness, would slowly bring us together...

With Brexit, we chose the "I"  instead of the  "We"...We ran away, because we got lazy to accept differences help

Positive but small changes, that comprimise is progress not a weakness.

I chose not to to do a post vote, because, the people of the UK had to chose, I had no more knowledge or feelings

what it was to be part of the UK.

 

That said, we had a referendum, unfortunately both sides or the argument, were filled with incompetent deceit, and no

Honest competent Information platform were created.No help, the documents and papers were in conception..

Downright pathetic and lacking any form to help with usefull competent debate.The electorate was left high and dry,

without having a choice Or help  to collect and form their own opinions, after and  during the various Government debate

and discussion platforms , they seemed more formed for convenience than dealing with the " known" Facts against,

the sumissions and presumptions.

Even now British politicians, refuse to face  upto one single idea or reasons, why the electorate wanted change.

I suppose its like being kicked in the balls by your own brother, but he telling you the neighbours are really to blame.

 

Whatever, what has gone and how poor the 2 campaigns were led, The descision fell for Brexit, that has to be respected

and honoured.The people, the electorate decided so..!!!

The shame is, even within the discussion, within the UK the stupid Selfish  infighting, seems more important, than offering that electorate a decent

2 years of a program, that offers an acceptable exit.

 

At present, I see only a slimey group of politicians, who once the exit is complete will have no

More points for regress or blame, the EU will be gone.

There are  good politicians..., Some have already started to drift  .

This present group have nothing to offer....on both sides of the divide.

 

[Fox Ulike]

2 hours ago, KingGTF said:

 

People have responsibility for their words, yes. As for accountability, I'm not sure how you expect to hold those who said certain things accountable for their words, it's democratically impossible in this country to do so. You can hold the government accountable for its interpretation of the result and it's actioning of that result but not a lot else. 

 

I'm yet to see what promises have been broken. I don't really see any promises were made but maybe that's down to interpretation, you see claims as promises, I see claims as claims to consider objectively. Maybe the bus was implicit, but I read it as we send an amount of money to the EU, look what else that money could be used on.

 

 

 

"The Brexit secretary insisted there was no legal obligation for the UK to pay sums for EU projects after leaving the bloc, even those approved while the UK was a member, but conceded there were “moral or political” reasons to reach a financial settlement." Do share where my untruths are?

 

I wouldn’t be so rude as to call them ‘untruths’.  ‘Casual hypocrisy’ is the term I’d favour.

 

You’d said: “I don't think anyone has ever said that the financial deal will be favourable to us.”

 

We are leaving the EU because it costs too much (source: the Bus). But here we are, already out of pocket before we’ve even left. But for some reason that I genuinely can’t fathom, this is completely acceptable in the minds of Brexiteers! You speak of it as if we always knew this, we've all agreed to it, it’s completely fine, and it couldn’t ever be any different! It's beyond being questioned.

 

To continue my 1984 analogy, it’s like “2+2=5”.

 

[Fox Ulike]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

Because I was given 2 options. I chose the one that was best for me, purely for selfish reasons. The "we'd be better off" didn't come into it. 

Come on don't be shy!

 

Genuinely intrigued to know what your selfish reasons are.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

Come on don't be shy!

 

Genuinely intrigued to know what your selfish reasons are.

Romainian hatred innit bruv?

[Innovindil]

4 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

Come on don't be shy!

 

Genuinely intrigued to know what your selfish reasons are.

Not shy, been through this a million times before. In brexit Britain, my skills are worth more to my employer, and my employer makes more money aswell. 

 

Nothing exotic. Pretty simple stuff. 

[Innovindil]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Romainian hatred innit bruv?

Legit don't think I've ever met a Romanian. If I have, I didn't notice he was Romanian. 

[Fox Ulike]

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

Not shy, been through this a million times before. In brexit Britain, my skills are worth more to my employer, and my employer makes more money aswell. 

 

Nothing exotic. Pretty simple stuff. 

Not because of the Romanians then?

 

 

What are your special skills?

[Fox Ulike]

4 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Not shy, been through this a million times before. In brexit Britain, my skills are worth more to my employer, and my employer makes more money aswell. 

 

Nothing exotic. Pretty simple stuff. 

[Innovindil]

2 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

Not because of the Romanians then?

 

 

What are your special skills?

Don't think so.

 

I'm a precision engineer. 

[Alf Bentley]

2 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

Not because of the Romanians then?

 

 

What are your special skills?

 

Sorry to distract with talk of football, but it's just occurred to me how similar in style our title-winning team was to that great Romanian side that went to the World Cup quarter-finals in 1994.

 

p.s. Hagi was a precision engineer of sorts.

[Kopfkino]

10 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

I wouldn’t be so rude as to call them ‘untruths’.  ‘Casual hypocrisy’ is the term I’d favour.

 

You’d said: “I don't think anyone has ever said that the financial deal will be favourable to us.”

 

We are leaving the EU because it costs too much (source: the Bus). But here we are, already out of pocket before we’ve even left. But for some reason that I genuinely can’t fathom, this is completely acceptable in the minds of Brexiteers! You speak of it as if we always knew this, we've all agreed to it, it’s completely fine, and it couldn’t ever be any different! It's beyond being questioned.

 

To continue my 1984 analogy, it’s like “2+2=5”.

 

No you're conflating two different things. The monetary settlement (part of the withdrawal agreement with which I was referencing from Toddy's Guardian article) is not favourable to us because we don't have to pay it. But we are. Yes, I don't recall a divorce bill being mentioned in the referendum campaign but therefore, given it wasn't mentioned til after the result, I don't see anyone say that the payment to leave will be favourable to us. 

 

 

The financial situation as plastered on the bus is a different matter but even adjusting for a monetary settlement we find:

40/13.1=3.05

Therefore, as of the 19th January in the 4th year after exit we begin saving. We then save for the rest of time.

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Not shy, been through this a million times before. In brexit Britain, my skills are worth more to my employer, and my employer makes more money aswell. 

 

Nothing exotic. Pretty simple stuff. 

Good old fashioned self interest. Fair enough.

[Fox Ulike]

6 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

No you're conflating two different things. The monetary settlement (part of the withdrawal agreement with which I was referencing from Toddy's Guardian article) is not favourable to us because we don't have to pay it. But we are. Yes, I don't recall a divorce bill being mentioned in the referendum campaign but therefore, given it wasn't mentioned til after the result, I don't see anyone say that the payment to leave will be favourable to us. 

 

 

The financial situation as plastered on the bus is a different matter but even adjusting for a monetary settlement we find:

40/13.1=3.05

Therefore, as of the 19th January in the 4th year after exit we begin saving. We then save for the rest of time.

Money is money. So it's an artificial distinction. The divorce bill, the cost of Brexit itself (8,000 new civil servants!!), the cost of tariffs, the downturn in trade etc etc etc. There's no point just focussing narrowly on a single area where we might actually be in the black, whilst ignoring every other financial aspects where we're going to lose more than we gain. Can you remind me when I signed up to all this??

 

Also, in terms of saving 'for the rest of time'. Well. That's like selling your car and going "Wow look how much money I've saved in petrol" - then realising you'll have to take a train and two buses just to get to work every day.

[Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, Fox Ulike said:

Money is money. So it's an artificial distinction. The divorce bill, the cost of Brexit itself (8,000 new civil servants!!), the cost of tariffs, the downturn in trade etc etc etc. There's no point just focussing narrowly on a single area where we might actually be in the black, whilst ignoring every other financial aspects where we're going to lose more than we gain. Can you remind me when I signed up to all this??

 

Also, in terms of saving 'for the rest of time'. Well. That's like selling your car and going "Wow look how much money I've saved in petrol" - then realising you'll have to take a train and two buses just to get to work every day.

 

You're discussing it with yourself now. It's not an artificial distinction when David Davis was speaking solely about the withdrawal agreement. I only referenced the financial deal as spoken of by David Davis in that Guardian article which was purely the money paid as part of a withdrawal agreement and so my point stands that nobody said that would be more favourable to us than them. That's why it was a moot point, it wasn't really news. I don't disagree with any of the rest that you've said, I'm all for thinking about it objectively. 

 

None of us actually signed up for anything. 

 

You've clearly convinced yourself Brexit is a bad idea, will not go great, and we'll end up begging to return. I am firmly of the belief that, long-term, there is no reason it can't be a roaring success and we are better off outside of the EU. However, if I was to vote again (well I didn't actually vote) I'd vote remain to save the monotony of it all, and ensure the Marxists were nowhere near government. 

 

 

Just reading that the EU is now banning glyphosate. Shambles.

 

Edited 1 November 2017 by KingGTF

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

 

 

Just reading that the EU is now banning glyphosate. Shambles.

 

Kind of curious about that my own self. Seems like we're as sure as we can be (by comparison to other stuff anyway) that it isn't harmful long or short term to the environment.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Legit don't think I've ever met a Romanian. If I have, I didn't notice he was Romanian. 

I was banging a Romanian for a few months. She used to be webcam girl 

Apparently that's where loads of sex webcam work is based. 

She was filthy 

As good a reason for remaining as I can give you.

[Guest]

Tory's refusing to participate in votes again.

Nobody seems sure if this one is binding (though WRM thinks it should be).

Binding or not, a government behaving like this should be considered to be in contempt of parliament. Should make the ruling clearer.

The whole point of a parliamentary democracy is that, if you can't win over the house you can't implement things. This government is just ignoring that.

Edited 1 November 2017 by Guest

[Strokes]

20 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I was banging a Romanian for a few months. She used to be webcam girl 

Apparently that's where loads of sex webcam work is based. 

She was filthy 

As good a reason for remaining as I can give you.

No wonder you are always skint

 

[Innovindil]

22 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I was banging a Romanian for a few months. She used to be webcam girl 

Apparently that's where loads of sex webcam work is based. 

She was filthy 

As good a reason for remaining as I can give you.

Damn Romanian women, coming over here, stealing our men. 

[bovril]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Sorry to distract with talk of football, but it's just occurred to me how similar in style our title-winning team was to that great Romanian side that went to the World Cup quarter-finals in 1994.

 

p.s. Hagi was a precision engineer of sorts.

Loved the Bulgarian and Romania teams of 94. High water mark of balkan football. Vaguely remember Major making a comment about Letchkov to Chancellor Kohl after the quarter final. 

[Rogstanley]

3 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Not shy, been through this a million times before. In brexit Britain, my skills are worth more to my employer, and my employer makes more money aswell. 

 

Nothing exotic. Pretty simple stuff. 

Have you had a pay rise above what you’d have normally expected since the vote?

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

I was banging a Romanian for a few months. She used to be webcam girl 

Apparently that's where loads of sex webcam work is based. 

She was filthy 

As good a reason for remaining as I can give you.

Would have been great if a prominent remainer had done a parady of Farage’s infamous refugee queue picture, replacing the refugees with a queue of fit Eastern European women. How any straight bloke could vote against letting more of them into the country is beyond me.

[Carl the Llama]

6 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Any links to where we're legally obliged to pay it? 

6 hours ago, KingGTF said:

"The Brexit secretary insisted there was no legal obligation for the UK to pay sums for EU projects after leaving the bloc, even those approved while the UK was a member, but conceded there were “moral or political” reasons to reach a financial settlement." Do share where my untruths are?

For one thing, with all the hollering and bickering and the "no deal is better" nonsense it's pretty clear to any objective party that  when we do pay up it won't be thanks to a graciously benevolent sense of British "goodwill" towards the EU.  As for legal obligations there's the pensions of EU civil servants, particularly the British representation but the EU will also argue that we owe payments to cover our share of pension payouts for all EU civil servants, after all we have benefited from their hard work, it's a bit opaque where exactly the obligation lies on that front but there is no doubt that we have one.  Likewise there's the EU budget: We need to pay for our share of the current budgetary period which runs up until 2020, we may get a small exemption given that we'll leave in 2019 but I wouldn't hold my breath, our politicians 'knew' that the budget runs on a multi-annual framework when they kicked off the referendum so I would imagine Juncker et al will demand we fulfil our commitment for the full current period.

 

Of course Davis is going to say there's no legal obligation, he wants to stall off finding a consensus until it becomes necessary to take the argument to the Hague and he won't stand a chance in court if he admits that we have a legal obligation!  It's pure politicking.