Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Fox Ulike]

2 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

This is what I mean though, unfortunately this country's politics is more interesting in preserving the wealth of the narrowing few, it'll probably take something seismic like another world war where the UK suffers heavy damage or some other catastrophic event for our priorities to change for the better.

 

Yeah I can’t see the super-rich just giving away their money.  And their grip on the media just gets stronger and stronger.  Class revolution is a possibility, but the rich usually do just enough to prevent the masses rising againt them. Bread and circuses and all that.

 

But I don’t see a war. Wars in the past have been fought over resources: Land, Capital, people. In a future where most production is done by AI, the issues aren’t going to revolve around the means of production so much.  The issues are likely to be a surfeit of resources, rather than not enough.

 

The rise in AI will see an equivalent rise in VR.

 

So one solution might be to just plug poor people into the Matrix.  VR stations in which you can go and live out your fantasies for weeks (or years?) at a time.

 

Seems a kinder solution than force-feeding them chlorinated chicken.

[Innovindil]

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

This is what I mean though, unfortunately this country's politics is more interesting in preserving the wealth of the narrowing few, it'll probably take something seismic like another world war where the UK suffers heavy damage or some other catastrophic event for our priorities to change for the better.

Catastrophes are the ultimate social justice.

 

However, given what comes with them I'm not entirely sure that's a good thing.

[peach0000]

29 minutes ago, MattP said:

Think he means tuition fees.

 

Everyone does get a free education while they are a child already, presume he means adults demanding free education beyond the age of 18.

Why should free education stop at 18 though. Getting people educated to university standard should be the responsibility of any government and people shouldn't have to pay to do so. Education should be free and state funded at all levels.  

[ajthefox]

7 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

For all this talk of a housing crisis, all I see is new houses being built everywhere. Whenever we go back home to visit family in Lutterworth, we comment on how big it’s becoming and there’s new estates extending at both ends of the town. 

Down here it’s the same, my local towns are unrecognisable come compared to when we moved here 15 years ago.

I keep reading in here that no one can get on the property ladder these days, but how come all these houses are occupied?

Doesn’t add up to me...

We haven't been building enough houses to keep up with estimates for demand for years Izzy.

 

From memory, we've been building at around 180,000 thousand per year for a few years now, when most estimates suggest we need over 250,00 per year to keep up with demand. 

That's why they're all occupied but there still aren't enough.
 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

3 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

Yeah I can’t see the super-rich just giving away their money.  And their grip on the media just gets stronger and stronger.  Class revolution is a possibility, but the rich usually do just enough to prevent the masses rising againt them. Bread and circuses and all that.

 

But I don’t see a war. Wars in the past have been fought over resources: Land, Capital, people. In a future where most production is done by AI, the issues aren’t going to revolve around the means of production so much.  The issues are likely to be a surfeit of resources, rather than not enough.

 

The rise in AI will see an equivalent rise in VR.

 

So one solution might be to just plug poor people into the Matrix.  VR stations in which you can go and live out your fantasies for weeks (or years?) at a time.

 

Seems a kinder solution than force-feeding them chlorinated chicken.

We saw a kind of raw public frustration with the riots a few years back which may hint at the potential for class revolution, but it was without focus, more just a lashing out betraying a general contempt rather than actual gestating political will

[Fox Ulike]

14 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

We saw a kind of raw public frustration with the riots a few years back which may hint at the potential for class revolution, but it was without focus, more just a lashing out betraying a general contempt rather than actual gestating political will

 

The potential for class revolution has always been there since we’ve had Capitalism.  However, since the Russian Revolution no-one would trust any revolutionary force. Lenin and his mates showed the World that the alternative to Capitalism was even worse!

 

But you can only push people so far.

 

Ironically, the greatest contribution that Karl Marx made was to alert the ruling classes as to what might happen if they didn’t  appease the working classes by increasing their standards of living. But lessons get forgotten over time and complacency creeps in. So you never know…!

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

14 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

The potential for class revolution has always been there since we’ve had Capitalism.  However, since the Russian Revolution no-one would trust any revolutionary force. Lenin and his mates showed the World that the alternative to Capitalism was even worse!

 

But you can only push people so far.

 

Ironically, the greatest contribution that Karl Marx made was to alert the ruling classes as to what might happen if they didn’t  appease the working classes by increasing their standards of living. But lessons get forgotten over time and complacency creeps in. So you never know…!

Yes, and now socialist ideas are often tarred with that brush, which I can understand.  But moderate socialist tendencies seem more and more marginalised which as you say will funnily enough make a revolutionary back lash more possible

 

Its a shame how binary things become and its very easy to get sucked into that binary aspect.  Brexit is the most perfect example of that:  so binary its mental, splitting the country down the middle.  I dont know if that split existed before Brexit invented it

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Where do you get this poisoned view from?

Who expects to be given anything?

Even taking inflation into account, house prices have gone up almost 150% and wages 20% on the last 15 years. How is it expecting to be handed freebies simply to not walk out of uni with £60k debt and to be able to afford a cheapish house on a £20k salary?

It's not. 

It's an expectation that hard work will actually pay off we want.

Stop defending the indefensible.

I was merely responding in jest to Rogs post.

 

Where do you get you poisoned views from. Being as 80% of the house rises were during the last Labour government, perhaps you should ask them.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 hour ago, ealingfox said:

 

Are you seriously calling out an entire generation for expecting a free education?

Free degrees in sociology yes. The post was merely in jest at the similar right wing post made by Rog.

 

Interesting to see the reactions though!

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

For all this talk of a housing crisis, all I see is new houses being built everywhere. Whenever we go back home to visit family in Lutterworth, we comment on how big it’s becoming and there’s new estates extending at both ends of the town. 

Down here it’s the same, my local towns are unrecognisable come compared to when we moved here 15 years ago.

I keep reading in here that no one can get on the property ladder these days, but how come all these houses are occupied?

Doesn’t add up to me...

I don't think we have built anywhere enough houses since the Early 1980s. Nearly 40 years of not building enough will take a long time to have any impact.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, peach0000 said:

Why should free education stop at 18 though. Getting people educated to university standard should be the responsibility of any government and people shouldn't have to pay to do so. Education should be free and state funded at all levels.  

Nothing is "free" - it has to be paid for by the taxpayer and I'm still yet to hear a good argument as to why people who are among the poorest in society should have to fund those who will often end up being the richest in society through adult education, I'm all for courses we need like nursing, engineering etc being subsidised to some extent but why should a fork lift truck driver pay more in tax so the son or daughter of a multi-millionaire can go and do business, art or economics?

 

I'd rather shove the £11billion this would cost per year into technical colleges where those people who aren't academically great can actually find and learn skills that will get them into employment rather than leaving them on the scrapheap.

 

If you want to hurt the poor and give a bung to the middle classes there are far better ways than free tuition fees, just look at what has happened in Scotland since they started doing this. ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36392857 ) - and that's not even to mention the money they have drained from healthcare and secondary education to carry this on.

 

Quote

 

Young Scots from disadvantaged areas are four times less likely to go to university than those from wealthy backgrounds, researchers have found.

Their study showed 90% of growth in higher education places for disadvantaged students came from colleges, not universities.

The Sutton Trust said its findings showed a "shocking access gap".

The Scottish government said university access for students from poorer areas was up by 29% since it came to power.

In England, those from the poorest neighbourhoods are 2.4 times less likely to attend university than people in the richest areas.

 

How anyone still supports this is bonkers.

[Fox Ulike]

38 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Yes, and now socialist ideas are often tarred with that brush, which I can understand.  But moderate socialist tendencies seem more and more marginalised which as you say will funnily enough make a revolutionary back lash more possible

 

Its a shame how binary things become and its very easy to get sucked into that binary aspect.  Brexit is the most perfect example of that:  so binary its mental, splitting the country down the middle.  I dont know if that split existed before Brexit invented it

 

It's an interesting question and one I’d not considered before.

 

Before Brexit I was completely uninterested in politics – which I guess was part of the problem: people like me just lazily expecting things to continue as they always had been.

 

I did vote in the referendum, but only just. If it had been raining, or I had worked late that day, I wouldn’t have bothered. I know people who simply didn’t vote because they just couldn’t imagine that people would vote for something which seemed to go against most people’s interests.

 

The Leave campaign had no measurable objectives or any articulated strategy of how leaving the EU would achieve those objectives. Of course, it seems obvious now, but most people don’t think in terms of objectives or strategies! So all those short-comings in the Leave campaign that educated people could see, were just ignored by the, well, less intelligent portion of the population, who voted purely on the basis of their emotions.

 

So I think that split was probably always there. But Brexit really has radicalised a portion of the population who no-one cared about and no-one listened to before. Brexit has given these people a political voice.

 

Unfortunately, instead of these people using that voice to campaign against things that would actually be in their interests: tax dodgers and crumbling services, they use it to loudly complain about things like the Single Market, immigration policies and the Customs Union. Things which even the most educated people can’t talk confidently about.

 

I think in 10 or 20 years time, a lot of these people will look back with shock that they had such passionate views about how the UK should organise its trade deals.  I mean, can you imagine five years ago asking a bunch of working-class blokes what they thought of the Customs Union?

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

5 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

It's an interesting question and one I’d not considered before.

 

Before Brexit I was completely uninterested in politics – which I guess was part of the problem: people like me just lazily expecting things to continue as they always had been.

 

I did vote in the referendum, but only just. If it had been raining, or I had worked late that day, I wouldn’t have bothered. I know people who simply didn’t vote because they just couldn’t imagine that people would vote for something which seemed to go against most people’s interests.

 

The Leave campaign had no measurable objectives or any articulated strategy of how leaving the EU would achieve those objectives. Of course, it seems obvious now, but most people don’t think in terms of objectives or strategies! So all those short-comings in the Leave campaign that educated people could see, were just ignored by the, well, less intelligent portion of the population, who voted purely on the basis of their emotions.

 

So I think that split was probably always there. But Brexit really has radicalised a portion of the population who no-one cared about and no-one listened to before. Brexit has given these people a political voice.

 

Unfortunately, instead of these people using that voice to campaign against things that would actually be in their interests: tax dodgers and crumbling services, they use it to loudly complain about things like the Single Market, immigration policies and the Customs Union. Things which even the most educated people can’t talk confidently about.

 

I think in 10 or 20 years time, a lot of these people will look back with shock that they had such passionate views about how the UK should organise its trade deals.  I mean, can you imagine five years ago asking a bunch of working-class blokes what they thought of the Customs Union?

Interesting points there.  Particularly that there are people turned onto politics even to the point of radicalisation by Brexit, yet the topics up for discussion are not necessarily the most pertinent to people's interests

 

Although that second part I'm sure there are those in both Brexit and Remain camps who would tell me I dont understand the significance of the customs union, single market etc.. and they'd be right! 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Interesting points there.  Particularly that there are people turned onto politics even to the point of radicalisation by Brexit, yet the topics up for discussion are not necessarily the most pertinent to people's interests

 

Although that second part I'm sure there are those in both Brexit and Remain camps who would tell me I dont understand the significance of the customs union, single market etc.. and they'd be right! 

Brexit isn't the only issue or place where this has happened - look at what's going on over in the US, for instance.

 

Perhaps the polarisation was indeed under the surface, but recent times seem to have brought it out into the open and a variety of areas.

[Guest MattP]

I'm just glad most of my friends are middle class female remainers rather than working class Brexit voters so they could educate me on the customs union a few years ago.

[Kopfkino]

21 minutes ago, MattP said:

Nothing is "free" - it has to be paid for by the taxpayer and I'm still yet to hear a good argument as to why people who are among the poorest in society should have to fund those who will often end up being the richest in society through adult education, I'm all for courses we need like nursing, engineering etc being subsidised to some extent but why should a fork lift truck driver pay more in tax so the son or daughter of a multi-millionaire can go and do business, art or economics?

 

I'd rather shove the £11billion this would cost per year into technical colleges where those people who aren't academically great can actually find and learn skills that will get them into employment rather than leaving them on the scrapheap.

 

If you want to hurt the poor and give a bung to the middle classes there are far better ways than free tuition fees, just look at what has happened in Scotland since they started doing this. ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36392857 ) - and that's not even to mention the money they have drained from healthcare and secondary education to carry this on.

 

How anyone still supports this is bonkers.

 

It's not just that though, where do you draw the line? Masters, MBAs, multiple degrees, any PhD costs, executive courses etc. The current system is bad enough that the taxpayer picks up the bill for someone having a three year jolly doing Tourism Management at Chichester but imagine a free system eventually extended to Masters level where a Maths/Physics/Finance/Econ students ends up on ridiculous sums as a quant at a hedge fund. 

[Fox Ulike]

17 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Interesting points there.  Particularly that there are people turned onto politics even to the point of radicalisation by Brexit, yet the topics up for discussion are not necessarily the most pertinent to people's interests

 

Although that second part I'm sure there are those in both Brexit and Remain camps who would tell me I dont understand the significance of the customs union, single market etc.. and they'd be right! 

 

Well absolutely. I mean, I’m guilty of it talking about those things too. But I talk about them in the context of why are we letting a bunch of unqualified people decide what we should do about them.

 

I wouldn’t dream of saying something like “Oh yeah we should leave the Customs Union because we’d be well better off out of it. It’s rubbish.”  I mean, how deluded about your own level of intelligence would you have to be to hold views like that!?

Edited 16 February 2018 by Fox Ulike

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Brexit isn't the only issue or place where this has happened - look at what's going on over in the US, for instance.

 

Perhaps the polarisation was indeed under the surface, but recent times seem to have brought it out into the open and a variety of areas.

Thats true, there are similar things happening in several countries in Europe. Feels like these outbursts are not the best way to deal with what was bubbling beneath the surface.  I think there were issues and theyve manifested in this polarisation (in Britain) through Brexit, and that was only a gamble on Cameron's part, not a sincere thing.  Muddied issues if anything

 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Thats true, there are similar things happening in several countries in Europe. Feels like these outbursts are not the best way to deal with what was bubbling beneath the surface.  I think there were issues and theyve manifested in this polarisation (in Britain) through Brexit, and that was only a gamble on Cameron's part, not a sincere thing.  Muddied issues if anything

 

Yeah, this is about right. Things are getting pushed to extremis, and that's never good.

 

But to paraphrase something I read not too long ago, "your concerns may be valid, but perhaps runaway nationalism shouldn't be your answer?"

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, this is about right. Things are getting pushed to extremis, and that's never good.

 

But to paraphrase something I read not too long ago, "your concerns may be valid, but perhaps runaway nationalism shouldn't be your answer?"

Do you believe Brexit to be nationalism? I think that's such a pessimistic viewpoint.

 

I'd say it's potentially the most internationalist thing this country has done for decades. Not a single person in the government is proposing any nationalist, insular or protectionist policy so far that I have heard.

[Fox Ulike]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

Do you believe Brexit to be nationalism? I think that's such a pessimistic viewpoint.

 

I'd say it's potentially the most internationalist thing this country has done for decades. Not a single person in the government is proposing any nationalist, insular or protectionist policy so far that I have heard.

 

To you it might be matt. But I think a lot of Leavers will be expecting post-Brexit Britain to be a very different place to the one that you think it will be.

 

As I said. Leave had no measurable objectives, and no strategy for achieving them. So no-one really knows what Brexit will actually end up delivering.

 

You voted for uncertainty, and that’s what you’ve got!

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Do you believe Brexit to be nationalism? I think that's such a pessimistic viewpoint.

 

I'd say it's potentially the most internationalist thing this country has done for decades. Not a single person in the government is proposing any nationalist, insular or protectionist policy so far that I have heard.

I believe that it's borne from an idea that the UK is "taking back control" and therefore thinking that they as a nation trust their judgement over that of other countries and ergo consider themselves superior...however, of course, the very premise of national sovereignty itself is tied up in this too and it's a thorny issue - where is the line between self-determination as a nation and the belief in that self-determination becoming a belief in superiority over others? I honestly don't know.

 

Would the restriction of freedom of movement not qualify as insular/protectionist, then? Yes, it's something that all nations do and it's something that's likely necessary but it seems to qualify in the strictest definition of the words to me.

[Fox Ulike]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I believe that it's borne from an idea that the UK is "taking back control" and therefore thinking that they as a nation trust their judgement over that of other countries and ergo consider themselves superior...however, of course, the very premise of national sovereignty itself is tied up in this too and it's a thorny issue - where is the line between self-determination as a nation and the belief in that self-determination becoming a belief in superiority over others? I honestly don't know.

 

Would the restriction of freedom of movement not qualify as insular/protectionist, then? Yes, it's something that all nations do and it's something that's likely necessary but it seems to qualify in the strictest definition of the words to me.

 

Good point. And of course it’s all relative.

 

In the future with France, Germany and Spain etc all sharing a currency and allowing free-flow of goods and people. The single market expanding to include more and more countries. And undertaking big cross-border projects in innovative technologies and perhaps even things like space exploration.

 

Then you’ve got little Britain over the Channel just calmly going about it’s own business… ignoring all the 'foreign muck'

 

It will be very insular relative to France and Germany.

[Countryfox]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I believe that it's borne from an idea that the UK is "taking back control" and therefore thinking that they as a nation trust their judgement over that of other countries and ergo consider themselves superior...however, of course, the very premise of national sovereignty itself is tied up in this too and it's a thorny issue - where is the line between self-determination as a nation and the belief in that self-determination becoming a belief in superiority over others? I honestly don't know.

 

Would the restriction of freedom of movement not qualify as insular/protectionist, then? Yes, it's something that all nations do and it's something that's likely necessary but it seems to qualify in the strictest definition of the words to me.

I don't think that making our own decisions rather than letting 'Brussels" decide what is right or wrong is being superior.  Call me old fashioned but imo they do not always treat us fairly.