Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Kopfkino]

 

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Oh no, the Americans are coming.

 

Anyone that doesn't want to do a trade deal with the US is racist.

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

In the current political climate it does unfortunately feel guaranteed that the ability to 'make our own laws' will be used primarily to further enrich the elite at the expense of the masses.

 

The standard response to that from brexiters is "but if we don't like what they're doing we can vote them out".

 

Two problems with that. Firstly, they're not going to advertise the fact that they're screwing us over. It will be done in stealthy ways that will be all but invisible to ordinary people. We know most brexiters, even those who claim EU law was one of the main reasons they voted leave, can't actually describe the function of a single EU law, so the idea they're suddenly going to become experts in law is laughable.

 

Secondly, if you can still vote Tory now after eight years of failure, there's pretty much nothing they can ever do that will stop you voting for them. Democracy is only worthwhile if you actually use it; it only serves as a check and balance against ruthless exploitation if the people in power genuinely fear losing votes. Right now the Tories don't. That's partly because of the weak opposition, but mainly because their followers are so blind and tribal that they know they can get away with just about anything.

Weak opposition, you haven't mentioned that before. Why do you thinks its weak?

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

 

Anyone that doesn't want to do a trade deal with the US is racist.

Well the oppositionseems to be mostly from the left side of politics, do America have a large jewish population or something?

[Grebfromgrebland]

20 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

 

Anyone that doesn't want to do a trade deal with the US is racist.

Yes against themselves

[Rogstanley]

17 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Weak opposition, you haven't mentioned that before. Why do you thinks its weak?

I have mentioned it before.

 

It's weak in the sense that it doesn't properly threaten the Tories, because it's too far left to gain enough mainstream traction in this country. That's not to say they wouldn't be an effective government, but they're not an effective opposition while the Tories can just say "blah blah blah Venezuala" and a lot of people will fall for it.

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

Yes against themselves

Are you going to answer my question about which countries currently in FTA with USA are suffering because of it?

If you dont know, just say.

[Facecloth]

28 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Are you going to answer my question about which countries currently in FTA with USA are suffering because of it?

If you dont know, just say.

Come on mate, that's a bit rich. You spend your whole time on this thread ignoring questions and/or giving stupid jokey answers to avoid facing up to being wrong or having a difficult discussion. No offence meant, but seriously you aren't one to be having a go at anyone for avoiding answering.

Edited 17 February 2018 by Facecloth

[Strokes]

10 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Come on mate, that's a bit rich. You spend your whole time on this thread ignoring questions and/or giving stupid jokey answers to avoid facing up to being wrong or having a difficult discussion. No offence meant, but seriously you aren't one to be having a go at anyone for avoiding answering.

No offence taken.

He did imply i was naive or stupid earlier so i think pressing for clarity on what he thinks will go wrong is pretty fair tbh.

I don't think i've ever deliberately ducked a question, in a serious debate that didnt contain trolling from one side or another. I might have missed one or two, is there a question you want me to answer? 

[Buce]

‘Right wing groups plot to ditch safety standards on food and drugs’

 

’Ideal UK-US trade deal would see banned products sold in post Brexit Britain says accidently leaked memo’

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/17/revealed-us-uk-rightwing-thinktanks-talks-to-ditch-eu-safety-checks

[Strokes]

3 hours ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

This is what brexit was really about forget what you're being told.

 

Brexiteers want to sell our country down the pan in the guise of taking back control which translates to taking control away from those who care about our people and giving it to those who just want to exploit us in the name of profit and these people know no boundaries when it comes to ethics or humanity.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/17/revealed-us-uk-rightwing-thinktanks-talks-to-ditch-eu-safety-checks

 

1 minute ago, Buce said:

‘Right wing groups plot to ditch safety standards on food and drugs’

 

’Ideal UK-US trade deal would see banned products sold in post Brexit Britain says accidently leaked memo’

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/17/revealed-us-uk-rightwing-thinktanks-talks-to-ditch-eu-safety-checks

 

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

No offence taken.

He did imply i was naive or stupid earlier so i think pressing for clarity on what he thinks will go wrong is pretty fair tbh.

I don't think i've ever deliberately ducked a question, in a serious debate that didnt contain trolling from one side or another. I might have missed one or two, is there a question you want me to answer? 

Not particularly, I avoid posting this thread in the most part now as people will argue the sky is green to avoid admitting their precious political party could do any wrong and it's pissing me off.

 

I do read it though, and I always see you posting jokes instead of actually discussing anything. Maybe I've missed some posts, but the sheer volume of your silly replies and snide comments back make me think it's not isolated. I just think if people are prepared to put the time in to discuss something and you disagree you can put the time in to reply properly or just don't bother.

[Buce]

2 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

 

 

Anyone that doesn't want to do a trade deal with the US is racist.

 

 American isn’t a race. 

 

 

Edited 17 February 2018 by Buce

[bovril]

42 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

 American isn’t a race. 

 

 

Race doesn't really exist.

 

I guess it was an attempt at an ironic joke, anyway.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

8 hours ago, Strokes said:

United States has free trade agreements in force with 20 countries. These are:

• Australia
• Bahrain
• Canada
• Chile
• Colombia
• Costa Rica
• Dominican Republic
• El Salvador
• Guatemala
• Honduras
• Israel
• Jordan
• Korea
• Mexico
• Morocco
• Nicaragua
• Oman
• Panama
• Peru
• Singapore

Which one of these do you think are negatively affected by the free trade deal with the USA?

I need to understand in as nuch detail as you can because im obviously quite naive and stupid.

 

Critics of the Peru TPA say the pact will worsen Peru's problems with child labor and weak labor rights, and expose the country's subsistence farmers to disruptive competition with subsidized U.S. crops.^[17][18] Additionally, critics contend that Dubai Ports World will be able to use its Peruvian subsidiary to obtain rights to operate U.S. ports.^[19][20] Animal rights groups have opposed this legislation due to the possibility of spreading factory farming practices through Latin America, increasing U.S. pork and poultry exports, and miningdevelopment that causes deforestation and habitat loss for animals.^[21]

[DJ Barry Hammond]

While there has been a lot of favorable press about the USMFTA, not all consider it a sound agreement. Most notably, in Morocco, there has been concern regarding the reduction in tariffs for agricultural products and the increase in intellectual property and patent standards. The reduction of tariffs on agricultural products to zero threatens domestic farms and employment. With approximately 40–50% of the Moroccan workforce in agriculture, the fall-out of the USMFTA is of great concern. In addition, Moroccan pharmaceutical companies have voiced concerns over increased penalties for intellectual property and patent violations. The industry says these penalties could “undermine access to cheap medicines” for Moroccans.^[10]

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

Australia deal

 

Economic theory suggests that bilateral agreements like the FTA will lead to trade creation between the parties directly involved, but will also cause trade diversion from third countries, offsetting any benefits. Bilateral agreements may also undermine multilateral agreements such as those associated with the World Trade Organization. Partly as a result of these factors, the estimates of benefits produced by the CIE and relied on by the government were disputed by most economists who made submissions to the Senate Committees inquiring into the topic, some of whom concluded that the agreement would reduce Australia's economic welfare.

 

The provisions of the AUSFTA in Ch 17 required Australia to offer stronger protection to American intellectual property. In particular, the minimum term of copyright was extended to 70 years after the author's death. Most economists and others interested in intellectual property issues regarded this as undesirable. A number of prominent American economists took the same view in the case of Eldred v. Ashcroft.

 

In the year following the agreement, Australian exports to the U.S. declined,^[15] while U.S. exports to Australia increased. This followed the International Monetary Fund's prediction that the Australia-United States FTA would shrink the Australian economy marginally because of the loss of trade with other countries. The IMF estimated $US5.25 billion of extra U.S. imports entering into Australia per year under the FTA, but only $US2.97 billion of extra Australian exports to the U.S. per year.^[16] However, it remains unclear whether or not Australia's worsening trade deficit with the United States can be solely attributed to the FTA. It may have been a lagged effect of an appreciation of the Australian dollar against the US dollar between 2000 and 2003.

Edited 17 February 2018 by DJ Barry Hammond

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

Happy with those @Strokes?

 

If you Wikipedia ‘USA free trade agreements’ - it brings up a list and then you can go into each one. There’s a lot of negative viewpoints on the Australia one. 

 

And that’s the important thing to remember about any trade deal - it’s always going to comprise of things some people won’t want, in order to get some of the things others do the other way. There is no way any deal can be all good, the judgement has to be on the balance of outcomes.

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Happy with those @Strokes?

 

If you Wikipedia ‘USA free trade agreements’ - it brings up a list and then you can go into each one. There’s a lot of negative viewpoints on the Australia one. 

 

And that’s the important thing to remember about any trade deal - it’s always going to comprise of things some people won’t want, in order to get some of the things others do the other way. There is no way any deal can be all good, the judgement has to be on the balance of outcomes.

I'mout on the piss baz, ill read in morn bro. X

[Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Australia deal

 

Economic theory suggests that bilateral agreements like the FTA will lead to trade creation between the parties directly involved, but will also cause trade diversion from third countries, offsetting any benefits. Bilateral agreements may also undermine multilateral agreements such as those associated with the World Trade Organization. Partly as a result of these factors, the estimates of benefits produced by the CIE and relied on by the government were disputed by most economists who made submissions to the Senate Committees inquiring into the topic, some of whom concluded that the agreement would reduce Australia's economic welfare.

 

The provisions of the AUSFTA in Ch 17 required Australia to offer stronger protection to American intellectual property. In particular, the minimum term of copyright was extended to 70 years after the author's death. Most economists and others interested in intellectual property issues regarded this as undesirable. A number of prominent American economists took the same view in the case of Eldred v. Ashcroft.

 

In the year following the agreement, Australian exports to the U.S. declined,^[15] while U.S. exports to Australia increased. This followed the International Monetary Fund's prediction that the Australia-United States FTA would shrink the Australian economy marginally because of the loss of trade with other countries. The IMF estimated $US5.25 billion of extra U.S. imports entering into Australia per year under the FTA, but only $US2.97 billion of extra Australian exports to the U.S. per year.^[16] However, it remains unclear whether or not Australia's worsening trade deficit with the United States can be solely attributed to the FTA. It may have been a lagged effect of an appreciation of the Australian dollar against the US dollar between 2000 and 2003.

 

This is actually an interesting case study. Article that talks of the damage to America as well. 

http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2015/02/08/the-costs-of-australias-free-trade-agreement-with-america/

Particularly worth noting is "Deals that are struck in haste for primarily political reasons carry risk of substantial economic damage".

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Murdered MP's widower Brendan Cox quits charities

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43101434

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Czech agent claims 15 Labour MPs met spies as Ken Livingstone and John McDonnell deny claims

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/17/czech-agent-claims-15-labour-mps-met-spies-ken-livingstone-john/

[Sharpe's Fox]

4 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Czech agent claims 15 Labour MPs met spies as Ken Livingstone and John McDonnell deny claims

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/17/czech-agent-claims-15-labour-mps-met-spies-ken-livingstone-john/

Same bloke again who claims he organised Live Aid as a front for the Czech government. Maybe Corbyn and Midge Ure organised the downfall of the West from an allotment? Or John McDonnell invited Bob Geldof to plot the reunification of Ireland? #dangerous

Edited 18 February 2018 by Sharpe's Fox

[Webbo]

9 hours ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Critics of the Peru TPA say the pact will worsen Peru's problems with child labor and weak labor rights, and expose the country's subsistence farmers to disruptive competition with subsidized U.S. crops.^[17][18] Additionally, critics contend that Dubai Ports World will be able to use its Peruvian subsidiary to obtain rights to operate U.S. ports.^[19][20] Animal rights groups have opposed this legislation due to the possibility of spreading factory farming practices through Latin America, increasing U.S. pork and poultry exports, and miningdevelopment that causes deforestation and habitat loss for animals.^[21]

There are critics for everything, you can always find people who will disagree with anything. Who wants to keep subsistence farming going? Poor people in Peru will be able to buy cheaper food, what's wrong with that?

 

If free trade is such a bad thing why do people want us to stay in the single market?

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Same bloke again who claims he organised Live Aid as a front for the Czech government. Maybe Corbyn and Midge Ure organised the downfall of the West from an allotment? Or John McDonnell invited Bob Geldof to plot the reunification of Ireland? #dangerous

 

Sounds like he also had inside contacts in the Tory party and the House of Commons bar: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5401097/Jeremy-Corbyn-paid-Czech-secret-police-spy-claims.html

"‘I knew what Margaret Thatcher would eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner the next day and what dress she would be wearing,’ he said. Hinting at his proximity to other MPs during his trips to the Commons, he added: ‘I was going there for a whisky. There was a really good whisky. It is great to be on the terrace and looking at the River Thames.’"

 

What's this Midge Ure connection, though? Does Corbyn get songwriting royalties for "Forever and Ever" by Slik, "Rich Kids" by the Rich Kids and "Vienna" by Ultravox? 

 

 

Edited 18 February 2018 by Alf Bentley

[Sharpe's Fox]

12 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Sounds like he also had inside contacts in the Tory party and the House of Commons bar: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5401097/Jeremy-Corbyn-paid-Czech-secret-police-spy-claims.html

"‘I knew what Margaret Thatcher would eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner the next day and what dress she would be wearing,’ he said. Hinting at his proximity to other MPs during his trips to the Commons, he added: ‘I was going there for a whisky. There was a really good whisky. It is great to be on the terrace and looking at the River Thames.’"

 

What's this Midge Ure connection, though? Does Corbyn get songwriting royalties for "Forever and Ever" by Slik, "Rich Kids" by the Rich Kids and "Vienna" by Ultravox? 

 

 

“Through the unions and peace movements, questions were addressed to Nelson Mandela. It is because he and his team have been involved in the preparation of supporting events. We finally made a concert in Wembley. It was funded by Czechoslovakia.”

 

To which the interviewer asks Mr Sarkocy: Do you mean Live Aid?

 

Sarkocy responded by claiming:

“I did that. He maintained good contacts with Mandela’s wife. Women are a good source.”