Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Matt getting hate for linking articles non stop that criticise Labour, by the same people who constantly repped Toddy’s Daily guardian Tory bashing. 

Its nice of you all to acknowledge that labour do have a very small issue with antisemetism but you rarely even reply when the articles are posted, yet when a Tory similar article comes out it’s like flies around shit. 

But yeah matts the only biased poster

 

Not sure Finn and Alf consistently rep toddys Grauniad posts tbh.

[Guest MattP]

10 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

I'm sorry Matt but both islamophobia and anti-semitism are both genuine problems and ALSO both used to stifle criticism. 

 

You don't have to be El Empty and/or a Bilderberg nut to see that accusations of anti-semitism are frequently thrown at anyone with a criticism of Israel, however legitimate. I read a pretty good piece in which Jon Ronson, who is actually Jewish, talks about being branded an anti semite by the ADL

 

All of the Abrahamic religions and nearly all theocratic states (including Israel) are generally worthy of some legitimate criticism and its important we are able to separate that from real hatred. But it's also ridiculous to suggest that real hatred of either Islam (which islamophobia is) or Judaism doesn't exist and shouldn't be challenged. 

 

And if the Labour Party didn't have a leader who was publicly pro Palestine, there'd never be such manic outcry over anti semitism in the party. If there are anti semites there they've probably been there for decades with nobody giving a ****. 

 

They should be weeded out, absolutely, as any politician with bigoted prejudice should, but let's not pretend that there isn't also quite definitely an ADL style witch hunt against what is perceived to be an anti-Israel stance from some party members regardless of whether or not those party members are anti semitic or simply have genuine issue with the Israeli state. 

Critcism of Israel is absolutely fine, no one has ever claimed it isnt. Lets not try and seriously claim some of the things going on now are that though. 

 

Five years ago you didn't have Labour MP's being suspended for sharing Facebook posts of hooked nosed Jews or posts claiming it's problem solved of you move Israel to the USA.

 

You also didn't have the leader of the party praising anti-semetic murals, laying wreaths at the graves of the Black September movement and sharing platforms with numerous bigots and holocaust deniers.

 

If anyone is under the impression the two have been conflated they aren't following the situation. It's fine to be critical of Israel, but that doesn't mean you will get a free pass on the other stuff.

[Guest MattP]

Refreshing...

 

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

Critcism of Israel is absolutely fine, no one has ever claimed it isnt. Lets not try and seriously claim some of the things going on now are that though. 

 

Five years ago you didn't have Labour MP's being suspended for sharing Facebook posts of hooked nosed Jews or posts claiming it's problem solved of you move Israel to the USA.

 

You also didn't have the leader of the party praising anti-semetic murals, laying wreaths at the graves of the Black September movement and sharing platforms with numerous bigots and holocaust deniers.

 

If anyone is under the impression the two have been conflated they aren't following the situation. It's fine to be critical of Israel, but that doesn't mean you will get a free pass on the other stuff.

6

This is a certainty? No one has ever claimed that Israel is beyond criticism, ever? (Or indeed, tried to negate any and all criticism of it by accusations of anti-Semitism, which basically amounts to the same thing?)

 

WRT the last paragraph, there are people who conflate the two out of ignorance or malice. Agree that there needs to be careful division between one and the other, though.

Edited 24 September 2018 by leicsmac

[Innovindil]

28 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45621361

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45609604

 

i would prefer to stay in the EU, but I do find it strange that people berate brexit on here, but still express a willingness to vote for a party whose economic plans going to lead to a huge drop in investment in this country.  Giving workers up to 10% of your company and possibly terminating a contract with no compensation are not really going to make the UK an attractive proposition no matter how you try to spin it.

The mental gymnastics required are indeed on another level. 

 

The worst thing is that this is just the opening salvo, when they are actually in power I doubt they'll be able to start saying "no" to additional borrowing. 

 

Everyone needs a unicorn eh. 

[Guest MattP]

Just now, leicsmac said:

This is a certainty? No one has ever claimed that Israel is beyond criticism, ever?

 

WRT the last paragraph, there are people who conflate the two out of ignorance or malice. Agree that there needs to be careful division between one and the other, though.

I can honestly say I've never heard anyone claim legitimate criticism of Israel as antisemitic in British politics. 

 

Feel free to show me an example. 

[Guest MattP]

17 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

The mental gymnastics required are indeed on another level. 

 

The worst thing is that this is just the opening salvo, when they are actually in power I doubt they'll be able to start saying "no" to additional borrowing. 

 

Everyone needs a unicorn eh. 

Hard left politicians come out with crazy economic policy shocker.

 

I would love to see how they can even legislate for this.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

16 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

The mental gymnastics required are indeed on another level. 

 

The worst thing is that this is just the opening salvo, when they are actually in power I doubt they'll be able to start saying "no" to additional borrowing. 

 

Everyone needs a unicorn eh. 

Its utterly baffling how anyone can vote for Labour unless you are a diehard leftist now to be honest.

 

Their policies will cause job losses on a scale we have never seen before, tax rises and minimum wage rises hand in hand will cause jobs losses, forcing companies to put employees on boards will cause companies not to operate here. Ceasing controls of private business 'at a price determined by parliament' will cause job losses, anyone who says otherwise is in denial. 

 

Being a hard left Labour voter and remainer just doesn't go hand in hand.

 

Those leading the Labour party are as staunch Brexiteers as JRM.

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

I can honestly say I've never heard anyone claim legitimate criticism of Israel as antisemitic in British politics. 

 

Feel free to show me an example. 

 

Pardon me for nitpicking, but that's not what you said in your OP. You said "no one has ever claimed it isnt", which was understood to mean a worldwide context.

 

http://jfjfp.com/the-new-israel-fund-says/

 

"Several organisations such as the self-styled NGO Monitor, Israel Resource News Agency, WorldNetDaily and the Near and Middle East Policy Review are promoting the view that the work of Human Rights NGOs working in Israel is, by its very nature, anti-Israel. Their charge is to associate moral and ethical criticism of any activity by Israel or the policies of its Government as being anti-Israel, anti-Semitic and when conducted by Jews, as evidence of self-hatred."

 

And additionally:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/us/politics/democrat-israel-anti-semitism.html

 

Democrat writes book on Israel-US actions, when she comes round for election almost thirty years later, Repub says “The Fifth District is not a racist district, and I don’t see them ever voting for an anti-Semite like Leslie Cockburn.”

 

If we're limited to UK politics only, then thankfully the issue isn't as much of a hot potato as it is elsewhere and such conflation doesn't tend to make it into public debate. I would say, however, that those who conflate the issue in other parts of the word can and do have an effect on the current debate going on in the UK.

[Strokes]

42 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Not sure Finn and Alf consistently rep toddys Grauniad posts tbh.

They certainly didn’t pull him up on it did they?

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Pardon me for nitpicking, but that's not what you said in your OP. You said "no one has ever claimed it isnt", which was understood to mean a worldwide context.

 

http://jfjfp.com/the-new-israel-fund-says/

 

"Several organisations such as the self-styled NGO Monitor, Israel Resource News Agency, WorldNetDaily and the Near and Middle East Policy Review are promoting the view that the work of Human Rights NGOs working in Israel is, by its very nature, anti-Israel. Their charge is to associate moral and ethical criticism of any activity by Israel or the policies of its Government as being anti-Israel, anti-Semitic and when conducted by Jews, as evidence of self-hatred."

 

And additionally:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/us/politics/democrat-israel-anti-semitism.html

 

Democrat writes book on Israel-US actions, when she comes round for election almost thirty years later, Repub says “The Fifth District is not a racist district, and I don’t see them ever voting for an anti-Semite like Leslie Cockburn.”

 

If we're limited to UK politics only, then thankfully the issue isn't as much of a hot potato as it is elsewhere and such conflation doesn't tend to make it into public debate. I would say, however, that those who conflate the issue in other parts of the word can and do have an effect on the current debate going on in the UK.

I meant UK hence the discussion about Labour.

 

Of course I wouldn't extend the argument to America. 

[Strokes]

37 minutes ago, MattP said:

Refreshing...

 

More than happy to back that second referendum #thepeoplesvote ✊?

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

They certainly didn’t pull him up on it did they?

Nope, nor did I.

 

Dirty fence-sitters.

 

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

I meant UK hence the discussion about Labour.

 

Of course I wouldn't extend the argument to America. 

Understood.

 

I just wouldn't discount the conflation of criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism for base purposes nor the influence of those who conflate them out of hand.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

More than happy to back that second referendum #thepeoplesvote ✊?

I do hope this finally ends the fantasy among some that the Labour leadership doesn't want Brexit. It's ludicrous it's managed to carry on for this long.

Edited 24 September 2018 by MattP

[Carl the Llama]

@MattP you keep calling islamophobia a made up word but if you want to take that line aren't all words? It's not the oldest word in the English language but it arose to give name to real-world developments as language often does.  Unless there's another term you think we should use to describe those with irrational hatred for muslims?

[Carl the Llama]

@Strokes you have a very poor memory if you think this is the first time we've had a similar discussion and I highly doubt Alf or Fin said anything along the lines of antisemitism not being real the way Matt is - unchallenged by yourself no less.

[Guest MattP]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

@MattP you keep calling islamophobia a made up word but if you want to take that line aren't all words? It's not the oldest word in the English language but it arose to give name to real-world developments as language often does.  Unless there's another term you think we should use to describe those with irrational hatred for muslims?

Bigots, Racists, Anti-Muslim.

 

Any word that wasn't invented to stifle criticism of the religion is sufficient.

 

The phobe has always been the problem, there are many people out there who have genuine concerns and fears over what can stem out of a religion and how it can impact on a society - the attempt to diagnose these people with a phobia or a mental illness to shut them down isn't acceptable in a free thinking debate. 

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, MattP said:

Bigots, Racists, Anti-Muslim.

 

Any word that wasn't invented to stifle criticism of the religion is sufficient.

 

The phobe has always been the problem, there are many people out there who have genuine concerns and fears over what can stem out of a religion and how it can impact on a society - the attempt to diagnose these people with a phobia or a mental illness to shut them down isn't acceptable in a free thinking debate. 

OK, so when has the term been used to stifle debate? I've seen it used for people like them that leave bacon on mosques but in the same way that I can't recall any specific times where "antisemitic" has been used to describe legit Israel criticism I can't recall anybody using "islamophobe" to describe someone challenging backwards practices by Muslims.

[Strokes]

13 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

@Strokes you have a very poor memory if you think this is the first time we've had a similar discussion and I highly doubt Alf or Fin said anything along the lines of antisemitism not being real the way Matt is - unchallenged by yourself no less.

I don’t believe islamophobia is real, I’m not convinced antisemetism is either. 

I think religion is a choice and an opinion and we are ok to judge/prejudge people by their chosen opinions. I don’t think we should discriminate but to mock, berate, celebrate or feel intimidated by are all natural emotions in my opinion.

To do it on ethnic grounds or sexuality is a bit different as their is no choice made by subjects.

Edited 24 September 2018 by Strokes

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said:

OK, so when has the term been used to stifle debate? I've seen it used for people like them that leave bacon on mosques but in the same way that I can't recall any specific times where "antisemitic" has been used to describe legit Israel criticism I can't recall anybody using "islamophobe" to describe someone challenging backwards practices by Muslims.

What about the recent accusations levelled at Richard Dawkins because he said he preferred the sound of church bells to the call to prayer?

 

Douglas Murray, Peter Hitchins and Melanie Phillips are regularly labelled as this when speaking about Islam.

 

Boris Johnson was called one for comparing a item of clothing to a postbox in a piece where he defended the right to wear it, could you imagine a situation so ridiculous where a person would be accused of a mental illness for taking the piss out of the pope's hat saying he looked like a chess piece?

[Guest MattP]

The best example of the word being used to stifle debate was when the Iranian human rights activist Maryam Namazie was scheduled to be speak at Goldsmiths College and was eventually broken up by the Islamic Society.

 

 

Their statement continued: “Hosting known islamophobes [sic] at our university creates a climate of hatred. We showed our support on our Facebook page by sharing ISOC’s post with a message of solidarity. Our page is designed as a space for us to communicate with our members. We reserve the right to remove comments that contribute to the marginalisation of students.”

The National Secular Society - a campaign which says it works towards a society in where all citizens - regardless of religious belief, or lack of religious belief - can live together “fairly and cohesively” urged the university to “condemn the intolerance shown towards Namazie” and to make it clear to its student body “they do not have the right not to be offended.”

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/muslim-students-from-goldsmiths-university-s-islamic-society-heckle-and-aggressively-interrupt-a6760306.html

Edited 24 September 2018 by MattP

[Carl the Llama]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

What about the recent accusations levelled at Richard Dawkins because he said he preferred the sound of church bells to the call to prayer?

 

Douglas Murray, Peter Hitchins and Melanie Phillips are regularly labelled as this when speaking about Islam.

 

Boris Johnson was called one for comparing a item of clothing to a postbox in a piece where he defended the right to wear it, could you imagine a situation so ridiculous where a person would be accused of a mental illness for taking the piss out of the pope's hat saying he looked like a chess piece?

I could easily imagine that tbh, but I see where the issue lies now: you've been taking the snowflake sjw crowd seriously instead of laughing at them and moving on like the rest of us. I'm not denying they're a problem, they obviously have a tangible effect on people - just the other day I nearly got into a heated debate with my own mother because the guardian had told her that criticising Serena Williams' US open antics is sexist and she believed it - but let's not pretend the thought police weirdos are an excuse to bin a perfectly valid term (I don't buy the mental illness argument, that's not what the word really means so I think you're mistaken to claim such), doing so is just Orwellian newspeak implementation.

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I could easily imagine that tbh, but I see where the issue lies now: you've been taking the snowflake sjw crowd seriously instead of laughing at them and moving on like the rest of us.

When the word can be used to justify closing down debates in universities, the supposed bastion of intellectual debate for the young - we shouldn't be laughing, we should be taking it seriously and putting a stop to it.

[Carl the Llama]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

When the word can be used to justify closing down debates in universities, the supposed bastion of intellectual debate for the young - we shouldn't be laughing, we should be taking it seriously and putting a stop to it.

We should put a stop to that behaviour 100%, but you can't rewrite the dictionary over it, you can't have the intellectual debate in the first place if you're censoring specific words that you don't like. Puts you dangerously close to being in their company imo.

[The Guvnor]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Its utterly baffling how anyone can vote for Labour unless you are a diehard leftist now to be honest.

 

Their policies will cause job losses on a scale we have never seen before, tax rises and minimum wage rises hand in hand will cause jobs losses, forcing companies to put employees on boards will cause companies not to operate here. Ceasing controls of private business 'at a price determined by parliament' will cause job losses, anyone who says otherwise is in denial. 

 

Being a hard left Labour voter and remainer just doesn't go hand in hand.

 

Those leading the Labour party are as staunch Brexiteers as JRM.

Maybe that's what the country need with Jez and his sidekick in control for a few years just to show the country how good Capitalism really is.