Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[breadandcheese]

12 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

In my previous post, I accepted that Labour and anti-semitism was a valid issue to raise and that much of the blame for it remaining an issue was down to Corbyn doing a dreadful job at addressing it. But let's not be disingenuous: the reason why certain media outlets - and certain posters - keep returning to the issue and seeking out previous questionable comments by Corbyn isn't that they have a lifelong passionate commitment to anti-racism. It is partisan politics, an opportunity to use the issue to damage the politicians they oppose.

 

Over the past few months, you have made dozens, if not hundreds of posts about Corbyn/Labour and antisemitism. How many posts did you make about antisemitism before it arose as an issue for Labour? Or did Corbyn invent antisemitism - or become the only person to revive it since Hitler?

 

If you had non-partisan, non-propagandist motives for your avalanche of posts, you would surely also have made countless dozens of posts about Tory Islamophobia?

Here's the former Chair of the Tory party accusing it of Islamophobia:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44311092

Here's a Tory MP hosting a meeting by a Hindu Extremist who hangs out with Tommy Robinson and allegedly expresses all sorts of vile anti-Muslim views: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/anti-islam-tapan-ghosh-bob-blackman-rohingya-muslims-a8020656.html

 

Haven't heard quite so much about that in the media or from you, have we? I understand that we all have our views and want to make partisan points - and sometimes you make very good posts advocating your views, whether I agree with them or not.

But it becomes annoying propaganda if you constantly spew out posts on a single issue to attack opponents. You and other right-wing posters have criticised other posters for spewing out a stream of partisan anti-Tory or pro-Corbyn posts, with some justification. It hadn't occurred to me that you might be a professional and not an amateur propagandist, though.... If so, which right-wing group pays you? Surely their cash would be better spent on getting you to design memes for mass social media like Facebook, as Britain First and the Corbynistas have done? Not much impact in spewing propaganda into the politics thread of a football forum... 

But isn't the difference twofold?

 

1) that the anti-semitism within the Labour party has become so institutionalised, including at disciplinary level, such that the entire organisation could be classed as institutionally antisemitic?

 

2) that it was seemingly ignored or treated as an irritant by the party leader rather than tackling the issue.

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, Charl91 said:

"Not on par with anti-semitism"

 

I mean what?!?!  You can't even make this up. "Look, Labour's type of racism is worse than the Tory's racism"

I strongly urge you to read what I write.

 

If a person has delivered anti-Muslim sentiment or predudice they should be treated and punished in exactly the way as anyone else who does so to any other person bssed on religious discrimination .

 

"Islamophobia" though is a bullshit term and it's purpose is to stifle criticism of the religion. It's the sort of word the killers of the Charlie Hebdo staff would have used to justify their acts.

 

"Anti-semitism" is, as history has proven as recently as the last century, something that has been practiced and has led to the deaths of millions.

 

When the Tories have demonstrations from their own MP's against the party, hundreds of cases within the membership and have had to suspend or expel numerous people because if it you can compare it to the issue in Labour. 

 

Perversely, it's now your side trying to make up things just to try and deflect attention, I'm not doing to stop people voting Labour, I've long given up on achieving that, I'm doing it so if they are elected you can't tell us you weren't warned. 

[lifted*fox]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

I'm doing it so if they are elected you can't tell us you weren't warned. 

 

how noble

 

'ah yes, mattp warned us there'd be concentration camps again if labour were elected - we should have listened.'

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

What was promised by the government and the people in charge of both sides during the referendum campaign, an exit from the EU whilst also leaving the customs union and the single market. 

 

You're back to this dishonest argument yet again, are you?

 

You've already made clear that you view the then govt & Remain campaign (Cameron, Osborne & co) as a bunch of liars, responsible for the dishonest Project Fear - and I'd agree with you to a fair extent.

So why do you persist in quoting them as a reliable source for the claim that a Brexit vote inevitably meant leaving the Customs Union and Single Market? That was just part of Project Fear, wasn't it?

 

As for those in charge of the Leave campaign, I'll just repeat the same questions as before:

- If it was clear that we'd be leaving the CU & SM, why was it not on the Vote Leave web site? Still isn't, last time I looked. Surely they'd have mentioned such an important policy?

- When you said this before, you supported your claim with a video of Boris about 10 days before the vote, being pressed as to whether he agreed with Gove that we'd have to leave the SM/CU. Only at that stage did he agree that Gove was right. Why was it even a question if the Leave campaign had made it clear? The answer is because they hadn't made it clear. Some, like Gove, had made their views clear, others were talking about the Norway Model, Swiss Model, even Swiss Model. The dominant position was that Leave campaigners tried to avoid answering the question as they feared that it would lose them votes.

 

The only thing that was clear from the referendum was the vote to leave the EU.

 

Here's Boris (10:30 to 16:30), 3 months before the referendum, not denying his previous support for Single Market membership and repeatedly avoiding the straight question about whether we'll leave it:

 

 

[l444ry]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Thank you for the clarification.

 

I do hope at least most of the 17.4 million Leave voters think similarly.

Don't believe a word the charlatans and liars tell you today.

 

 

[lifted*fox]

and to suggest that the current examples of antisemitism in the labour party are anything akin to that of the nazi party that caused the deaths of millions of jews in ww2 is nothing short of offensive, tbqh. pure sensationalism.

Edited 23 September 2018 by lifted*fox

[Guest MattP]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

You're back to this dishonest argument yet again, are you?

Dishonest? Here's the video of them all saying it - quite some time after your video of Boris Johnson as well.

 

It's quite clear at the start of the campaign the subject was up in the air and by the end both campaigns had agreed on the position.

 

(1.40)

 

 

[Guest MattP]

9 minutes ago, l444ry said:

Don't believe a word the charlatans and liars tell you today.

 

 

So glad you've posted this

 

Andrew Neil tore apart the guy who did this video, total misrepresentation and even cut half of them off mid sentence. 

 

Great watch, not a single claim in it was made during the campaign, no idea how they thought they would get away with it.

 

 

Edited 23 September 2018 by MattP

[breadandcheese]

8 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

and to suggest that the current examples of antisemitism in the labour party are anything akin to that of the nazi party that caused the deaths of millions of jews in ww2 is nothing short of offensive, tbqh. pure sensationalism.

I think the suggestion is that the anti-semitism in the Labour party is akin to the anti-semitism seen in communist societies post second world war. You just have to read the approach of Stalin to Jews to see similarities.

[Alf Bentley]

15 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

But isn't the difference twofold?

 

1) that the anti-semitism within the Labour party has become so institutionalised, including at disciplinary level, such that the entire organisation could be classed as institutionally antisemitic?

 

2) that it was seemingly ignored or treated as an irritant by the party leader rather than tackling the issue.

 

I've already agreed with your second point. It was ignored and treated as an irritant for far too long, and not tackled. Hopefully it is now finally being tackled. We'll see.....

I've yet to hear what the Tories are doing in response to Baroness Warsi's accusations of institutional Islamophobia in the Tory Party. Have you? As far as I'm aware, Bob Blackman hasn't been suspended for associating with anti-Muslim extremists, has he?

 

I disagree with your first point. I think the problem relates to a particular Hard Left mindset, the black-and-white world view that I described earlier: Israelis bad, Palestinians good etc. I don't like that way of thinking. Also, in a minority of cases it extends into blatant antisemitism - moving from kneejerk condemnation of Israel to talk of Jewish conspiracies etc, though that is a tiny minority that exists in any organisation. What I do accept is that kneejerk anti-Israel attitudes have spread within the Labour Party with the recent domination of Corbyn's crew. I don't see that as institutional, though I do see it as wrong and dangerous. I haven't been active in the Labour Party for years, but was active in the 80s and 90s, so am familiar with the mindset. Such people see there being "good Jews" who oppose Israeli policies against Palestinians: sieges, violence, land occupation etc. Then they see the majority as "bad Jews" who support Israel. Hopefully that thinking will now be rolled back in favour of greater nuance - likewise the anti-Islamic attitudes of some on the Right, including within the Tory Party.

[Guest MattP]

9 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

I've yet to hear what the Tories are doing in response to Baroness Warsi's accusations of institutional Islamophobia in the Tory Party. Have you? As far as I'm aware, Bob Blackman hasn't been suspended for associating with anti-Muslim extremists, has he?

Do you think Blackman meeting with the Indian politician merits a suspension? 

 

If so we'll be suspending half of parliament. 

[Alf Bentley]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

Dishonest? Here's the video of them all saying it - quite some time after your video of Boris Johnson as well.

 

It's quite clear at the start of the campaign the subject was up in the air and by the end both campaigns had agreed on the position.

 

(1.40)

 

 

 

 

I've repeatedly accepted that Remain campaign leaders made this claim. But both you and I know that their claims were tactical - part of the disgraceful Project Fear attempt to scare people into voting Remain.

I've also repeatedly accepted that Gove made his opinion clear - one of the few honest Brexiteer politicians.

The Boris clip is the same one that you posted before and that I mentioned above - about 10-12 days before the vote, when he was challenged for his opinion.....which he had obviously NOT made clear before. Why ask him otherwise?

I don't know about Leadsom and don't know when her clip comes from. Maybe she was another like Gove?

 

If I can be arsed later, I'll dredge up further clips of Leave campaigners avoiding the question or considering staying in the SM, opting for the Norway option or whatever.

 

For now, here's the Vote Leave web site: http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/

Last time you raised this spurious claim, I had checked that site and could find no reference to leaving the SM/CU. Please point me to where it says that.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said:

I've repeatedly accepted that Remain campaign leaders made this claim. But both you and I know that their claims were tactical - part of the disgraceful Project Fear attempt to scare people into voting Remain.

I've also repeatedly accepted that Gove made his opinion clear - one of the few honest Brexiteer politicians.

The Boris clip is the same one that you posted before and that I mentioned above - about 10-12 days before the vote, when he was challenged for his opinion.....which he had obviously NOT made clear before. Why ask him otherwise?

I don't know about Leadsom and don't know when her clip comes from. Maybe she was another like Gove?

 

If I can be arsed later, I'll dredge up further clips of Leave campaigners avoiding the question or considering staying in the SM, opting for the Norway option or whatever.

 

For now, here's the Vote Leave web site: http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/

Last time you raised this spurious claim, I had checked that site and could find no reference to leaving the SM/CU. Please point me to where it says that.

Vote Leave isn't a political party, it couldnt promise to leave the single market as no one in it had that power, hence Cameron and Osborne saying that's what it meant if we voted leave and Michael Gove and Boris saying "we should be" outside of it. 

 

It would have been ridiculous for people like Gisele Stuart to make promises on what government policy would be when she was a Labour backbencher.

 

The only people who could make the promise were the people in government as they the ones who were in charge of implementing the decision. 

[urban.spaceman]

 

Tell me where is Gandalf for I much desire to speak with him.

[ajthefox]

14 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

Tell me where is Gandalf for I much desire to speak with him.

Come off the A1(M) at 44 and head east on the A64. Malton is about 20 minutes East of York.

[l444ry]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

So glad you've posted this

 

Andrew Neil tore apart the guy who did this video, total misrepresentation and even cut half of them off mid sentence. 

 

Great watch, not a single claim in it was made during the campaign, no idea how they thought they would get away with it.

 

 

Haha. Car crash interview my arse. As McGrory pointed out is wasn't possible to fully represent their views in a video of that length but of course it was also propaganda and the bits they picked didn't give the most balanced representation of the Leaver's views that it was possible to give. However none of them was 100% bullshit either.

The big difference between this sort of propaganda and the £350 million a week to the NHS sort used by the Leave campaign is that the underlying point the video was making was completely valid. The Leave campaign did not have a united position before the referendum and so their claim now that the vote can only be interpreted in one way is complete bullshit.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Peace be with you my children Let us all hold hands, and be brotherly and sisterly, among ourselves, forgetting our differences, and being kind to one another.

 

Let's get the fvck out of the E.U. first though.

Quote

.

 

[l444ry]

 

[Voll Blau]

5 hours ago, bovril said:

I don't really follow celeb news and social media and shit so can anyone explain why Lily Allen is such a hate figure, especially to alt-right / incel types? I mean apart from her music being shit and her being a bit of a mockney twat. 

It's so weird isn't it? But then again, so are they. I think they just want to build her up as some kind of figurehead for "the left" that she really isn't. They are the only people in the whole world who actually pay any attention to her.

[Finnegan]

4 hours ago, MattP said:

I strongly urge you to read what I write.

 

If a person has delivered anti-Muslim sentiment or predudice they should be treated and punished in exactly the way as anyone else who does so to any other person bssed on religious discrimination .

 

"Islamophobia" though is a bullshit term and it's purpose is to stifle criticism of the religion. It's the sort of word the killers of the Charlie Hebdo staff would have used to justify their acts.

 

"Anti-semitism" is, as history has proven as recently as the last century, something that has been practiced and has led to the deaths of millions.

 

When the Tories have demonstrations from their own MP's against the party, hundreds of cases within the membership and have had to suspend or expel numerous people because if it you can compare it to the issue in Labour. 

 

Perversely, it's now your side trying to make up things just to try and deflect attention, I'm not doing to stop people voting Labour, I've long given up on achieving that, I'm doing it so if they are elected you can't tell us you weren't warned. 

 

I'm sorry Matt but both islamophobia and anti-semitism are both genuine problems and ALSO both used to stifle criticism. 

 

You don't have to be El Empty and/or a Bilderberg nut to see that accusations of anti-semitism are frequently thrown at anyone with a criticism of Israel, however legitimate. I read a pretty good piece in which Jon Ronson, who is actually Jewish, talks about being branded an anti semite by the ADL

 

All of the Abrahamic religions and nearly all theocratic states (including Israel) are generally worthy of some legitimate criticism and its important we are able to separate that from real hatred. But it's also ridiculous to suggest that real hatred of either Islam (which islamophobia is) or Judaism doesn't exist and shouldn't be challenged. 

 

And if the Labour Party didn't have a leader who was publicly pro Palestine, there'd never be such manic outcry over anti semitism in the party. If there are anti semites there they've probably been there for decades with nobody giving a ****. 

 

They should be weeded out, absolutely, as any politician with bigoted prejudice should, but let's not pretend that there isn't also quite definitely an ADL style witch hunt against what is perceived to be an anti-Israel stance from some party members regardless of whether or not those party members are anti semitic or simply have genuine issue with the Israeli state. 

 

Edited 23 September 2018 by Finnegan

[urban.spaceman]

3 hours ago, ajthefox said:

Come off the A1(M) at 44 and head east on the A64. Malton is about 20 minutes East of York.

That's actually the directions to Lucius Malfoy's house which coincidentally is very relevant.

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

I'm sorry Matt but both islamophobia and anti-semitism are both genuine problems and ALSO both used to stifle criticism. 

 

You don't have to be El Empty and/or a Bilderberg nut to see that accusations of anti-semitism are frequently thrown at anyone with a criticism of Israel, however legitimate. I read a pretty good piece in which Jon Ronson, who is actually Jewish, talks about being branded an anti semite by the ADL

 

All of the Abrahamic religions and nearly all theocratic states (including Israel) are generally worthy of some legitimate criticism and its important we are able to separate that from real hatred. But it's also ridiculous to suggest that real hatred of either Islam (which islamophobia is) or Judaism doesn't exist and shouldn't be challenged. 

 

And if the Labour Party didn't have a leader who was publicly pro Palestine, there'd never be such manic outcry over anti semitism in the party. If there are anti semites there they've probably been there for decades with nobody giving a ****. 

 

They should be weeded out, absolutely, as any politician with bigoted prejudice should, but let's not pretend that there isn't also quite definitely an ADL style witch hunt against what is perceived to be an anti-Israel stance from some party members regardless of whether or not those party members are anti semitic or simply have genuine issue with the Israeli state. 

 

This.

 

I'll add that quite frankly if anti-Semitism and legitimate criticism of Israel's actions get conflated by an individual it's either out of ignorance by a person who should perhaps look at the nuance better or malice from someone who knows all about the situation and wants to further supremacist views.

[Finnegan]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

This.

 

I'll add that quite frankly if anti-Semitism and legitimate criticism of Israel's actions get conflated by an individual it's either out of ignorance by a person who should perhaps look at the nuance better or malice from someone who knows all about the situation and wants to further supremacist views.

 

I think it's really important (especially given that we're a secular state with freedom of religion, thousands of miles away from the middle east) we retain a sense of unbiased perspective. Its important we retain the ability and the clarity to critique without hate and the freedom to criticise without being called hateful. 

 

There are aspects of both Israel and the Arab states that SHOULD trouble any modern, progressive person and if we can't vocalise that maturely, we're doing nobody any good. 

 

If you immediately decry any criticism as bigotry, you're really just shouting down progress. If the Wright brothers defiantly shouted down any suggestion that their machine could be improved and simply took offence at any criticism, the world would be a lot bigger today. 

 

But equally, you can't hide behind "criticism" to spread hate, lies and malice either and it's important we find balance. As with almost anything it's usually just the boring middle ground and it usually just takes a bit of common sense and calm to find. 

 

Sadly, common sense and calm don't sell newspapers or generate clicks. 

Edited 24 September 2018 by Finnegan

[Strokes]

Matt getting hate for linking articles non stop that criticise Labour, by the same people who constantly repped Toddy’s Daily guardian Tory bashing. 

Its nice of you all to acknowledge that labour do have a very small issue with antisemetism but you rarely even reply when the articles are posted, yet when a Tory similar article comes out it’s like flies around shit. 

But yeah matts the only biased poster

 

[Salisbury Fox]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45621361

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45609604

 

i would prefer to stay in the EU, but I do find it strange that people berate brexit on here, but still express a willingness to vote for a party whose economic plans going to lead to a huge drop in investment in this country.  Giving workers up to 10% of your company and possibly terminating a contract with no compensation are not really going to make the UK an attractive proposition no matter how you try to spin it.