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DJ Barry Hammond

Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

By DJ Barry Hammond, in General Chat

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Strokes said:

But voting for that party let’s it know that what it is messaging is getting through and it’s hitting the right notes. If everyone that votes does that, then really shit still get in, what have you achieved? Apart from not shit at all, thinks. Fùck we got that wrong we need to be a bit more shit.

I can understand tactical voting if the party you vote for has no chance. 

 

If I lived in Scotland or Brighton Pavilion and the Tories had no chance I would probably vote Labour over the SNP or Caroline Lucas providing the candidate wasn't a barmy hard-left one.

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Strokes

Strokes

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, MattP said:

I can understand tactical voting if the party you vote for has no chance. 

 

If I lived in Scotland or Brighton Pavilion and the Tories had no chance I would probably vote Labour over the SNP or Caroline Lucas providing the candidate wasn't a barmy hard-left one.

I just think it perpetrates the problem. The reason they have no chance could be that all their supporters believe they have no chance. A candidate might win with more tactical votes than genuine support. It’s a farcical way to operate and again it makes a mockery of democracy.

How can a party make inroads into an area and why should they with such tribalism?

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I just think it perpetrates the problem. The reason they have no chance could be that all their supporters believe they have no chance. A candidate might win with more tactical votes than genuine support. It’s a farcical way to operate and again it makes a mockery of democracy.

How can a party make inroads into an area and why should they with such tribalism?

I know what you mean, but you can't really ignore previous results. People do know if their candidate has little or no chance. In 2015 the Tories even told their own voters in Sheffield Hallam to vote Lib Dem on the doorstep on pollimg day as they thought they would need Nick Clegg to form a coalition.

 

Unfortunately tribalism is part of politics.

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Voll Blau

Voll Blau

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, Strokes said:

Also calling it the people’s vote, to hide the fact it’s a second referendum is hilariously disingenuous. Considering the outcry about honesty in the original campaign it’s beautifully ironic. lol

 

Oh yeah, don't get me started on the #FBPE weirdos. You look at the state of some them and think "no wonder some folks voted the opposite way..."

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Dr The Singh

Dr The Singh

Posted
Posted

Looks like the Indians are looking to buy more weaponry from us.   Our government should be ashamed of itself, targetting our own people for ££££

 

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/anti-terror-police-raid-british-sikh-separatists-over-extremist-activity-in-india_uk_5ba398c1e4b0375f8f9a9604?utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage&ncid=other_homepage_tiwdkz83gze&utm_campaign=mw_entry_recirc

 

 

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Oh yeah, don't get me started on the #FBPE weirdos. You look at the state of some them and think "no wonder some folks voted the opposite way..."

I was watching a clip of one dancing with bells, a tambourine and an EU hat on last week and smiled thinking back to the time wheb my sides were the weirdos in this debate.

Edited by MattP
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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45610768

 

European Council President Donald Tusk has said a compromise with the UK over Brexit is "still possible", after Theresa May warned she was prepared to walk away from talks.

In a statement, Mr Tusk said he was a "true admirer" of the PM.

But he defended the EU's approach and said it was in fact Mrs May who had been "tough" and "uncompromising".

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Captain...

Captain...

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Strokes said:

So if the GE was re run today and this is it, your last chance to stop brexit. Labour and Tories are still ploughing on with their pretty much identical brexit plans and Lib Dem’s are the only party who’s manifesto is about stopping brexit. Do you still find other reasons to vote for a pro brexit party?

Labour’s policy was not a clear pro-Brexit policy. It was a messy muddle of trying to be all things to all people. If it was clear between Brexit or not I would vote for a no Brexit party. Last time I voted for an anti-Brexit candidate in a divided party that would keep out a Tory candidate who kept his views on Brexit quiet.

Edited by Captain...
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Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Strokes said:

Also calling it the people’s vote, to hide the fact it’s a second referendum is hilariously disingenuous. Considering the outcry about honesty in the original campaign it’s beautifully ironic. lol

 

 

Orwellian use of language, I must admit. There's an extra irony in campaigning for a "people's vote" against a political measure that you condemn as "populist". :D

 

Despite ending up firmly in the Remain camp, for reasons of democracy I've opposed a second referendum throughout, unless there's a massive change in public opinion.

But I do think there's a much stronger case for a second referendum if we end up heading for No Deal or if any final deal is massively unpopular with the public.

 

Part of my reason for opposing a second referendum has always been that it risked even greater public contempt for democratic politics - up to and including violence in the streets.

However, that same risk arises if we end up with No Deal wreaking havoc in people's lives, or a deal opposed by a large majority of the population.

In that case, a second referendum is justified. No doubt the campaign would generate hostility, division, bitterness and even some violence.....but if that was going to happen anyway, then better to have a clear mandate (or not) moving forward.

Btw, I don't assume that Remain would win any such referendum - and still tend to oppose a second referendum if May brings back a deal that, say 40%+ of the public find tolerable.

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Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, bovril said:

I don't agree with the idea of a second ref and it's not going to happen now anyway, but I'm not sure how it would be undemocratic. You're essentially asking the same people the same question, only this time with a slightly better understanding of what leaving the EU entails. Said people would either make the same decision or change their mind. It might be a waste of time, money and effort, but it wouldn't be undemocratic.

"Undemocratic" is like "scaremongering" during the referendum campaign, it's used so much now by both sides it's lost all meaning. 

 

I wouldn't be so sure that a second referendum won't happen.

 

I struggle to see ANY solution that is going to get the approval of the EU and the UK Parliament. 

A second referendum (or an election) could end up being the only way of breaking the impasse, particularly if the Tories are reluctant to risk a general election, and successful in avoiding one.

 

Chequers: No chance of the EU agreeing anything close to this, surely? Opposition & Tory Brexiteers would vote down if they did agree it?

Canada-type deal: Voted down by Opposition & Tory Remainers? Also doesn't resolve the Irish border issue, which is the single obstacle to the Divorce Deal (terms of future trade can be negotiated during transition if Divorce terms are agreed).

Norway-type deal: Voted down by Opposition, Tory Brexiteers & DUP?

No Deal: Unacceptable not only to the Opposition parties, but also to a large proportion of Tory MPs. Most of them know how disastrous this would be - and that they'd face the flak.

 

It's possible that one or other of these options could somehow get through parliament.

One or other Tory faction could back down in the face of a "Back the Canada/Norway-style deal or we have an election/second referendum" ultimatum.

Maybe the Govt could still win support for a Norway-type deal from Labour Moderates - but unlikely to work, as they'd need about 100 to compensate for Tory Brexiteers & DUP opposing this.

I reckon that it's just as likely that the MPs will end up handing the issue back to the public to block the impasse.

 

Though I do wonder if May might switch to a Canada-type deal but accept the compromise that Barnier offered on the Irish border: i.e. keep her Brexiteers on side, shaft the DUP, give Tory Remainers a "Canada or risk Corbyn" ultimatum and hope to squeak through by either calling the DUP's bluff or getting a few votes from Labour Brexiteers?

 

Feels like we've spent 2 years watching a car crash happen!

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fuchsntf

fuchsntf

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I wouldn't be so sure that a second referendum won't happen.

 

I struggle to see ANY solution that is going to get the approval of the EU and the UK Parliament. 

A second referendum (or an election) could end up being the only way of breaking the impasse, particularly if the Tories are reluctant to risk a general election, and successful in avoiding one.

 

Chequers: No chance of the EU agreeing anything close to this, surely? Opposition & Tory Brexiteers would vote down if they did agree it?

Canada-type deal: Voted down by Opposition & Tory Remainers? Also doesn't resolve the Irish border issue, which is the single obstacle to the Divorce Deal (terms of future trade can be negotiated during transition if Divorce terms are agreed).

Norway-type deal: Voted down by Opposition, Tory Brexiteers & DUP?

No Deal: Unacceptable not only to the Opposition parties, but also to a large proportion of Tory MPs. Most of them know how disastrous this would be - and that they'd face the flak.

 

It's possible that one or other of these options could somehow get through parliament.

One or other Tory faction could back down in the face of a "Back the Canada/Norway-style deal or we have an election/second referendum" ultimatum.

Maybe the Govt could still win support for a Norway-type deal from Labour Moderates - but unlikely to work, as they'd need about 100 to compensate for Tory Brexiteers & DUP opposing this.

I reckon that it's just as likely that the MPs will end up handing the issue back to the public to block the impasse.

 

Though I do wonder if May might switch to a Canada-type deal but accept the compromise that Barnier offered on the Irish border: i.e. keep her Brexiteers on side, shaft the DUP, give Tory Remainers a "Canada or risk Corbyn" ultimatum and hope to squeak through by either calling the DUP's bluff or getting a few votes from Labour Brexiteers?

 

Feels like we've spent 2 years watching a car crash happen!

I am so glad I am here,and your there....Tin hat and safety seats...!!

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DANGEROUS TIGER

DANGEROUS TIGER

Posted
Posted

Let us not forget Norway, who have twice rejected joining the E.U., by referendums in 1972 and 1994. and is showing robust growth, without the yoke of the E.U. around it's neck. It has just about the highest standard of living, than any other European country

If they can do it, then living outside the E.U., is going to be no lame duck. We can follow their example.

 

Time to burn the E.U. flag people. :yesyes:

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Strokes

Strokes

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

So this Tusk fella thinks it's O.K. to take the piss out of us eh?

 

I voted Remain but the EU can kiss my swingers if that's how they're behaving.

 

Fvck em.

 

Tusk Instagram post

It also doubles as a metaphor for no bollocks. Casual misogyny from Tusk :nono: :ph34r:

Typical of a eurononce.

Edited by Strokes
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bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

So this Tusk fella thinks it's O.K. to take the piss out of us eh?

 

I voted Remain but the EU can kiss my swingers if that's how they're behaving.

 

Fvck em.

 

Tusk Instagram post

I didn't think it was particularly funny but quite amusing to see the faux outrage as usual. It's completely inconsequential and if someone's opinions on the future of the UK / EU relationship are influenced by a social media post they should get their priorities in order. 

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Izzy

Izzy

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, bovril said:

I didn't think it was particularly funny but quite amusing to see the faux outrage as usual. It's completely inconsequential and if someone's opinions on the future of the UK / EU relationship are influenced by a social media post they should get their priorities in order. 

If Tusk is supposed to be a leader then this is piss poor and pathetic behavior. Do we really want to be part of an organisation who's leader thinks it's O.K. to humiliate our PM?

It may be inconsequential to some but to me it was unnecessary and a cheap shot and shows him to be a dick. Better off without them imo

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bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

If Tusk is supposed to be a leader then this is piss poor and pathetic behavior. Do we really want to be part of an organisation who's leader thinks it's O.K. to humiliate our PM?

It may be inconsequential to some but to me it was unnecessary and a cheap shot and shows him to be a dick. Better off without them imo

He may well be a dick but I still see it as rather inconsequential, when weighing up the pros and cons of the EU I would hope remainers and leavers would relegate stuff like that to somewhere near the bottom. 

I didn't see it as taking the piss out of our leader anyway, just a shit play on the "cherry picking" phrase that's been used a lot. The response just smacks of people in this country loving getting offended by something. If anything it's worked in her favour, Tories can sell it as bloody foreigners taking the piss out of our Trezza. 

One thing we can agree on is that Polish humour is shit. 

Edited by bovril
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