Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[deep blue]

8 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Why not two options -

Leave no deal.

Leave the known deal.

 

Why should remain even be an option now?

Because it might be considered as the best option so the opportunity to opt for that should not be denied to the electorate.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Charl91 said:

Nah, I'm sorry but this is just wrong.

 

Firstly, we get a lot of concessions being in the EU. If we scrape and grovel to get back in, it's not going to be on the terms that we left.

 

Secondly, in our first-past-the-post system, a vote for Lib Dem is a wasted vote in most seats. If people voted for Lib Dems, then all that would mean is that Theresa May would have had more of a mandate to push through the harder Brexit that it seemed she was gunning for. Many people (myself included) voted Labour because at least it seemed more likely that they'd be go for a softer Brexit. Better to be slightly shit then really really shit. Some (misguided) people also voted Labour because they were also under the impression that they would stop Brexit, since Corbyn was deliberately ambiguous with his wording and led them to believe that he was pro-europe.

 

At the end of the day, Lib Dems were never an option. The only realistic option was to vote for Labour to stop the Tories having quite so many seats. I seem to remember TM went to the polls to get a bigger mandate for her Brexit, and ended up losing quite a few seats.

Except it's actually 100% right, which is the problem you have. 

 

If you read Tim Shipmans book on the campaign it's quite widely held that May actually wanted a large majority to get a softer Brexit through, something I now completely believe after chequers.

[Spiritwalker]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Why not two options -

Leave no deal.

Leave the known deal.

 

Why should remain even be an option now?

In principle you are right, but it could be like being asked,

"do you want your right or left bollock chopping off?",

sorry but the no bollock option is no longer available.

 

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, deep blue said:

Because it might be considered as the best option so the opportunity to opt for that should not be denied to the electorate.

The electorate has already rejected remain. 

[Charl91]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Because they want to overturn the result. It's absolutely hilarious they are trying to portray it as anything else.

 

Not a single one of these people would be calling for a re-run had it gone their way, I'm embarrassed reading the call for it.

 

I just wish they would be honest.

Of course I want to overturn the result. I want what's best for the country, and I'm not ashamed to say it - why would I be? As said before, if the Brexit referendum had gone the other way, then Brexiteers would be doing the same. Don't make me laugh and claim that you'd sit back and say "ah well, it was 48% to 52%, might aswell leave it at that then lads". Don't talk to me about being honest, because it makes you a damn hypocrite.

 

6 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Why not two options -

Leave no deal.

Leave the known deal.

 

Why should remain even be an option now?

 

Because maybe remain might be the preferred option, especially as "deal" will be worse than what we have, and "no deal" will be a car crash. Many people have now wised up the fact that many of the things that were promised were pure fantasy.

 

I think that lots of Brexiteers actually realise that remain is now probably the most popular option, and that's why they no longer want to hear about the will of the people. Apparently the will-of-the-people two years ago (based on ficitious promises) is more important than the will of a more-informed people in the present time  

[Charl91]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Except it's actually 100% right, which is the problem you have. 

 

If you read Tim Shipmans book on the campaign it's quite widely held that May actually wanted a large majority to get a softer Brexit through, something I now completely believe after chequers.

 

It's not right. You and I both know that Lib-Dems had no chance, and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

 

That being said, in hindsight I also believe that the same is true about May (and I might have even voted Tory had I known), but her pre-election rhetoric suggested different. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Charl91 said:

 

It's not right. You and I both know that Lib-Dems had no chance, and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

 

That being said, in hindsight I also believe that the same is true about May (and I might have even voted Tory had I known), but her pre-election rhetoric suggested different. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

If all you remainers got behind them, 16 million votes, you think they would have no chance?

[Spiritwalker]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

Have they? By that logic from the 1975 referendum it should be a 99% win for remain. 

 

You'll be telling me next a person's politics can change as they get older.

They have, all the surveys showed the largest leave group were the eldest and the

largest remain group were the youngest. Many of the largest leave group will have

since passed away.

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, Charl91 said:

Of course I want to overturn the result. I want what's best for the country, and I'm not ashamed to say it - why would I be? As said before, if the Brexit referendum had gone the other way, then Brexiteers would be doing the same. Don't make me laugh and claim that you'd sit back and say "ah well, it was 48% to 52%, might aswell leave it at that then lads".

Do you think we would have got away demanding another one within two years? Of course we wouldn't. 

 

The key thing is implementation, for hundreds of years every democratic decision in this country had been enacted - no crying, no whinging, no silly claims it wasn't fair as the information wasn't right (as it that would be the case if the electorate voted remain) and that's why we need a re-run. 17.4million came out to vote that we leave, the biggest mandate for any political decision in our history.

 

Be careful, deny people the right of change via the ballot box and all they are then left with is bullets and bombs. 

[Strokes]

Ok say we have remain on the referendum paper but only if the other option is leave with no deal. Would you still want the referendum?

10 minutes ago, Charl91 said:

Of course I want to overturn the result. I want what's best for the country, and I'm not ashamed to say it - why would I be? As said before, if the Brexit referendum had gone the other way, then Brexiteers would be doing the same. Don't make me laugh and claim that you'd sit back and say "ah well, it was 48% to 52%, might aswell leave it at that then lads". Don't talk to me about being honest, because it makes you a damn hypocrite.

 

 

Because maybe remain might be the preferred option, especially as "deal" will be worse than what we have, and "no deal" will be a car crash. Many people have now wised up the fact that many of the things that were promised were pure fantasy.

 

I think that lots of Brexiteers actually realise that remain is now probably the most popular option, and that's why they no longer want to hear about the will of the people. Apparently the will-of-the-people two years ago (based on ficitious promises) is more important than the will of a more-informed people in the present time  

 

[Charl91]

Just now, Strokes said:

If all you remainers got behind them, 16 million votes, you think they would have no chance?

Yeah, in an ideal world. But politics doesn't work like that - the chances of coordinating 16 million people switching to Lib-Dems is nigh impossible, and anyway, just because Lib-Dems want to remain, it doesn't mean that they're necessarily suited to governing in other areas. General elections are based on multiple issues. Hence why we have (poorly planned) referendums.

[Mr Weller]

Democracy isn’t about getting the result you like-it’s about ensuring decisions  and governments have the consent of the people.

 

I hate Brexit and wish the referendum had never been called. I also care deeply about the country and don’t want to see it suffer. However, people like me lost the argument. It doesn’t matter that we think people were misled or ill informed-you could say that about most elections.

 

The moment you ignore the people and try and impose your preferred option is the moment we lose who we are as a democracy and that is worth more than being in the EU.

 

We have no choice but to see it through-the choice has been made and we’ve got to make the best of it.

Edited 21 September 2018 by Mr Weller

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Charl91 said:

Yeah, in an ideal world. But politics doesn't work like that - the chances of coordinating 16 million people switching to Lib-Dems is nigh impossible, and anyway, just because Lib-Dems want to remain, it doesn't mean that they're necessarily suited to governing in other areas. General elections are based on multiple issues. Hence why we have (poorly planned) referendums.

I’d say Lib Dem’s (excluding brexit) couldn’t be worse in government than the two main parties. They are both so repugnant right now.

 

What other policies put you off them then?

[Strokes]

Also calling it the people’s vote, to hide the fact it’s a second referendum is hilariously disingenuous. Considering the outcry about honesty in the original campaign it’s beautifully ironic.

 

[Charl91]

23 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Ok say we have remain on the referendum paper but only if the other option is leave with no deal. Would you still want the referendum?

 

Tricky one. I would probably lean towards yes, if I'm honest, as long as it was made clear what "no deal" actually meant.

 

You know what, if people knew the hardships that no-deal entitled, and still wanted to vote for it (knowing that we would be worse off economically, and that some magical trade deal with Rivendell wasn't going to materialise), then I'd probably accept it. I'd be very bitter about it, but I would probably more likely to accept it.

 

I can't speak for most remainders, but I think the thing that sits poorly with me is how many false promises were thrown around pre-referendum (and again, I'm not going to say that the remain campaign was guilt free, but at least remain was the status quo, so a generally known quantity). Most of the amazing deals and benefits that were said would come to fruition, by prominent leave campaigners, clearly aren't going to happen. If people said "Yeah, we know we'll be poorer, but it's what we want" then yeah, fair enough. I think it's a shitty decision, but I could at least try to respect it, even if I disagree. 

 

But I am of the strong belief (especially from the Brexit voters I've spoken to) that at least a small, but significant percentage of Brexit voters believed promises that were blatantly lies, and it does gall me that such a major decision could be swung by that level of deceit. 

Edited 21 September 2018 by Charl91

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Charl91 said:

Tricky one. I would probably lean towards yes, if I'm honest, as long as it was made clear what "no deal" actually meant.

 

You know what, if people knew the hardships that no-deal entitled, and still wanted to vote for it (knowing that we would be worse off economically, and that some magical trade deal with Rivendell wasn't going to materialise), then I'd probably accept it. I'd be very bitter about it, but I would probably more likely to accept it.

 

I can't speak for most remainders, but I think the thing that sits poorly with me is how many false promises were thrown around pre-referendum (and again, I'm not going to say that the remain campaign was guilt free, but at least remain was the status quo, so a generally known quantity). Most of the amazing deals and benefits that were said would come to fruition, by prominent leave campaigners, clearly aren't going to happen. If people said "Yeah, we know we'll be poorer, but it's what we want" then yeah, fair enough. I think it's a shitty decision, but I could at least try to respect it, even if I disagree. 

 

But I am of the strong belief (especially from the Brexit voters I've spoken to) that at least a small, but significant percentage of Brexit voters believed promises that were blatantly lies and false promises (and some still believe it!), and it does gall me that such a major decision could be swung by that level of deceit. 

You can’t run the arguments for both campaigns, that’s not how it works

 

[Charl91]

9 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I’d say Lib Dem’s (excluding brexit) couldn’t be worse in government than the two main parties. They are both so repugnant right now.

 

What other policies put you off them then?

I don't think the Lib Dem's would be worse, to be honest (but that's not to say that others share the same view). I probably would have voted Lib Dems if I'd believed that they'd had a chance in my area. If we had a different voting system, I would have certainly voted LD.

 

However, Lib Dems got less than 10% of the Tory vote in my area. Would have been a wasted vote. I voted Labour this time round (though Tory's won by a landslide anyway). To me it was Lib-Dem = No Brexit, Labour = Soft Brexit. While the former would be preferable, the latter was the only realistic choice.

 

 

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, Charl91 said:

I don't think the Lib Dem's would be worse, to be honest (but that's not to say that others share the same view). I probably would have voted Lib Dems if I'd believed that they'd had a chance in my area. If we had a different voting system, I would have certainly voted LD.

 

However, Lib Dems got less than 10% of the Tory vote in my area. Would have been a wasted vote. I voted Labour this time round (though Tory's won by a landslide anyway). To me it was Lib-Dem = No Brexit, Labour = Soft Brexit. While the former would be preferable, the latter was the only realistic choice.

 

 

I genuinely can’t get my head around tactical voting, how you think that will ever help things is beyond me.

[Charl91]

Just now, Strokes said:

I genuinely can’t get my head around tactical voting, how you think that will ever help things is beyond me.

I'm a realist (or a pessimist. Or both). With tactical voting, it means my vote might at least have a chance of meaning something.

 

It's like if you have three options

A: Really Shit

B: A little shit

C: Not shit at all.

 

Obviously you want C, but you know C won't ever happen, so the best you can hope for is try and stop A happening. Yeah, in an ideal world I'd vote C, and all these other C voters would appear out of the woodwork, and we'd have street parties and everything. But sadly it's not the world we live in; as much as people say "well if everyone actually voted for the party they want....", my vote is independent of everyone elses, and me voting for unpopular party C isn't going to change everyone elses minds.

 

Yeah, maybe I could go out and campaign. But my level of caring-ness only extends as far as ranting on football forums at stupid times of the night.

 

(I'm a swing voter anyway, voted Tory, Lib Dem, Labour, in that order)

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Charl91 said:

I'm a realist (or a pessimist. Or both). With tactical voting, it means my vote might at least have a chance of meaning something.

 

It's like if you have three options

A: Really Shit

B: A little shit

C: Not shit at all.

 

Obviously you want C, but you know C won't ever happen, so the best you can hope for is try and stop A happening. Yeah, in an ideal world I'd vote C, and all these other C voters would appear out of the woodwork, and we'd have street parties and everything. But sadly it's not the world we live in; as much as people say "well if everyone actually voted for the party they want....", my vote is independent of everyone elses, and me voting for unpopular party C isn't going to change everyone elses minds.

 

Yeah, maybe I could go out and campaign. But my level of caring-ness only extends as far as ranting on football forums at stupid times of the night.

 

(I'm a swing voter anyway, voted Tory, Lib Dem, Labour, in that order)

But voting for that party let’s it know that what it is messaging is getting through and it’s hitting the right notes. If everyone that votes does that, then really shit still get in, what have you achieved? Apart from not shit at all, thinks. Fùck we got that wrong we need to be a bit more shit.

[Charl91]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

But voting for that party let’s it know that what it is messaging is getting through and it’s hitting the right notes. If everyone that votes does that, then really shit still get in, what have you achieved? Apart from not shit at all, thinks. Fùck we got that wrong we need to be a bit more shit.

 

Yeah, to be fair I don't really disagree with you there - I see the logic in both sides of the argument. I think it depends on the political situation at the time though.

 

I didn't vote tactically in my first few GE's, but I did at the previous one because I thought Brexit was such a big issue, and I thought the most important thing was to stop the tories getting in. I suppose it's ironic really that I voted Labour instead of Lib Dem's because of Brexit  

[davieG]

5 hours ago, Charl91 said:

Because maybe remain might be the preferred option, especially as "deal" will be worse than what we have, and "no deal" will be a car crash. Many people have now wised up the fact that many of the things that were promised were pure fantasy.

This is the problem though this is all speculation no one knows how it will go after we leave there's a lot of dooms day stuff coming out just like there was by the remain group at the referendum which hasn't happened.

For 2nd referendum people would still be relying on so much unfounded and unprovable speculation in reality we'd be no more informed about what will be the consequences short, medium or longer term than we were at the referendum.

Sadly political dogma, self serving speculation is and would be rife.

Fantasy good and bad is all there really is.

The only thing really factual is the various principles people might prefer with all their unknown consequences.

[Captain...]

9 hours ago, Strokes said:

I’d say Lib Dem’s (excluding brexit) couldn’t be worse in government than the two main parties. They are both so repugnant right now.

 

What other policies put you off them then?

Tim Farron being a twat didn’t help their cause. There were also a number of Labour candidates who campaigned locally against Brexit, Ruth Cadbury was my Labour candidate and she won with a huge increase in margin over her Conservative opponent. She’s since been kicked out the shadow cabinet for defying Corbyn on one of the Brexit votes. Rupa Huq was another.

 

It wasn’t just Labour Anna Sourbry has always been very anti Brexit and won her seat for the Tories. Greens, SNP and other smaller parties also campaigned against Brexit. The GE was not just about Brexit and it was never a case of vote Lib Dem as the only way to stop Brexit. The political system in the UK is so fundamentally flawed that voting for Lib Dem for many Remainers was just wasting their vote. If we had true proportional representation then it might have been a different result.

Edited 22 September 2018 by Captain...

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Tim Farron being a twat didn’t help there cause. There were also a number of Labour candidates who campaigned locally against Brexit, Ruth Cadbury was my Labour candidate and she won with a huge increase in margin over her Conservative opponent. She’s since been kicked out the shadow cabinet for defying Corbyn on one of the Brexit votes. Rupa Huq was another. Not just Labour Anna Sourbry has always been very anti Brexit and won her seat for the Tories. The GE was not just about Brexit and it was never a case of vote Lib Dem as the only way to stop Brexit.

So if the GE was re run today and this is it, your last chance to stop brexit. Labour and Tories are still ploughing on with their pretty much identical brexit plans and Lib Dem’s are the only party who’s manifesto is about stopping brexit. Do you still find other reasons to vote for a pro brexit party?

[Nick]

Choo choo....

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45609604