Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

Let us not forget Norway, who have twice rejected joining the E.U., by referendums in 1972 and 1994. and is showing robust growth, without the yoke of the E.U. around it's neck. It has just about the highest standard of living, than any other European country

If they can do it, then living outside the E.U., is going to be no lame duck. We can follow their example.

 

Time to burn the E.U. flag people.

 

Yes, membership of the Single Market, EFTA & EEA, plus freedom of movement seem to work well for Norway. 

 

Should we negotiate a Soft Brexit to follow their example, DT? 

 

 

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

So this Tusk fella thinks it's O.K. to take the piss out of us eh?

 

I voted Remain but the EU can kiss my swingers if that's how they're behaving.

 

Fvck em.

 

 

Pretty crass humour from Tusk (though understandable given that Chequers is based on cake having/eating and cherry-picking, despite 2 years of that approach being rejected).

 

But if you're going to decide your Brexit stance based on insults to May's policy, what about someone describing it as a "suicide vest" or accusing her of flying "a white flag" and "deliberately acquiescing in foreign rule"?

What dastardly Brussels dictator insulted the fair Theresa in such a way?! Step forward Boris Johnson, colleague, recent Foreign Secretary and would-be leader of the Brexit Revolution and Tory PM... 

 

30 minutes ago, bovril said:

Cake and eat it. 

 

No cherry picking, only cherry popping... 

[leicsmac]

I'll bet many of those pissed off at Tusk for taking the piss out of TM on social media seemingly had much less of a problem with Trump doing similar when he came by for a visit...

[Strokes]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I'll bet many of those pissed off at Tusk for taking the piss out of TM on social media seemingly had much less of a problem with Trump doing similar when he came by for a visit...

Hardly a ringing endorsement is it? You know its wrong when you have to use Trump for justification.

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Hardly a ringing endorsement is it? You know its wrong when you have to use Trump for justification.

Absolutely, I think both what Tusk has done here and what Trump does regularly are unbecoming of statesmen in the position they're in.

 

But hypocrisy is hypocrisy.

[Guest MattP]

6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I'll bet many of those pissed off at Tusk for taking the piss out of TM on social media seemingly had much less of a problem with Trump doing similar when he came by for a visit...

Not really similar though is it?

 

Trump said he would have done the negotiation different, Tusk is publicly mocking a leader in a negotiation with him. Better comparison is the way Boris has behaved, which has been awful.

 

Good for our side of the argument anyway, the EU never fails to show us all what sort of organisation is it.

[leicsmac]

19 minutes ago, MattP said:

Not really similar though is it?

 

Trump said he would have done the negotiation different, Tusk is publicly mocking a leader in a negotiation with him. Better comparison is the way Boris has behaved, which has been awful.

 

Good for our side of the argument anyway, the EU never fails to show us all what sort of organisation is it.

Fair enough, as is very well-noted I have no time for Trump nor Boris - they're both narcissistic con artists who get off on power and have somehow managed to convince a pluraity of people that they're in it for something other than their own self-interest. That wouldn't be so much of an issue were it not for the power Trump in particular commands and the resultant effect it could have on the future.

 

It's not like Trump doesn't have previous for mocking leaders in negotiations with him, is it?

[lifted*fox]

Teresa May seems to be perfectly capable of completely ignoring what's going on around her so I'm sure she isn't going to lose a little bit of sleep over some cake banter. 

 

Jokes that everyone is getting up on their high horses about it though. Unacceptable, unbecoming, etc. EU has said from the start it won't change its stance on gifting the key benefits of being an EU member to a country that doesn't want to be in it any more. If TM wants to continually go back to them and trot out the same old shit suggestions then she's fair game for having the piss taken out of her, tbqh. 

[Guest MattP]

No idea why people think a General Election will sort anything out, would deliver a similar result and still make it virtually impossible to get any deal through the house.

[Guest MattP]

I've actually just watched Jeremy Corbyn on television asking Jews thinking of leaving UK if he becomes PM to stay.

 

How did it get to this? 

[Alf Bentley]

13 minutes ago, MattP said:

I've actually just watched Jeremy Corbyn on television asking Jews thinking of leaving UK if he becomes PM to stay.

 

How did it get to this? 

 

Because there's an issue with some on the Left seeing the world in black and white - Palestine good oppressed victims; Israel bad oppressors - and a minority drifting from that into anti-semitism.

Then those on the Right have sought to use the issue to their political advantage, and Labour under Corbyn did a dreadful job at addressing the issue, playing into their hands.

Those on the Left will hope that the problem is finally being sorted, and that we can concentrate on critical issues like Brexit, the economy, public services/investment. Those on the Right will be digging around trying to find other examples of Corbyn or his allies making dubious comments so that they can fill the media with stories about Labour anti-semitism - and amateur right-wing propagandists like you will fill social media with posts about anti-semitism, in a way that I don't remember you doing before it became a stick that could be used to beat the Left.

 

I didn't think Corbyn did badly in his Marr interview, despite some tough questioning. As (generally) a Labour supporter, I'm always a bit nervous that he's going to say something stupid or come across really badly.....which is not a good sign. But he was alright today, I thought.

 

The really big issue now is what happens at Labour conference re. Labour policy on a second Brexit referendum. Corbyn and others seem quite clear that if the conference votes for a second referendum, the leadership will adopt that policy - and it sounds as if Labour pro-referendum people are there in force, though they might be stitched up during the compositing of the final motion.

 

If Labour does become a pro-referendum party, that will be a big shift in UK Brexit politics - and potentially national politics. I think the current flexible policy has served the party well and that Labour would be better advised to leave the referendum issue open until May's EU negotiations end in Oct/Nov. Then, if there's no deal or May returns with an unpopular deal, they'll have a strong argument for a shift in policy. They could probably get away with shifting policy immediately, but it might look like premature opportunism and might alienate some Brexit supporters who might support a referendum IF there's no deal or May is perceived to have done a bad deal.

[Nick]

59 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Because there's an issue with some on the Left seeing the world in black and white - Palestine good oppressed victims; Israel bad oppressors - and a minority drifting from that into anti-semitism.

Then those on the Right have sought to use the issue to their political advantage, and Labour under Corbyn did a dreadful job at addressing the issue, playing into their hands.

Those on the Left will hope that the problem is finally being sorted, and that we can concentrate on critical issues like Brexit, the economy, public services/investment. Those on the Right will be digging around trying to find other examples of Corbyn or his allies making dubious comments so that they can fill the media with stories about Labour anti-semitism - and amateur right-wing propagandists like you will fill social media with posts about anti-semitism, in a way that I don't remember you doing before it became a stick that could be used to beat the Left.

 

I didn't think Corbyn did badly in his Marr interview, despite some tough questioning. As (generally) a Labour supporter, I'm always a bit nervous that he's going to say something stupid or come across really badly.....which is not a good sign. But he was alright today, I thought.

 

The really big issue now is what happens at Labour conference re. Labour policy on a second Brexit referendum. Corbyn and others seem quite clear that if the conference votes for a second referendum, the leadership will adopt that policy - and it sounds as if Labour pro-referendum people are there in force, though they might be stitched up during the compositing of the final motion.

 

If Labour does become a pro-referendum party, that will be a big shift in UK Brexit politics - and potentially national politics. I think the current flexible policy has served the party well and that Labour would be better advised to leave the referendum issue open until May's EU negotiations end in Oct/Nov. Then, if there's no deal or May returns with an unpopular deal, they'll have a strong argument for a shift in policy. They could probably get away with shifting policy immediately, but it might look like premature opportunism and might alienate some Brexit supporters who might support a referendum IF there's no deal or May is perceived to have done a bad deal.

Great post.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

Because there's an issue with some on the Left seeing the world in black and white - Palestine good oppressed victims; Israel bad oppressors - and a minority drifting from that into anti-semitism.

Then those on the Right have sought to use the issue to their political advantage, and Labour under Corbyn did a dreadful job at addressing the issue, playing into their hands.

Those on the Left will hope that the problem is finally being sorted, and that we can concentrate on critical issues like Brexit, the economy, public services/investment. Those on the Right will be digging around trying to find other examples of Corbyn or his allies making dubious comments so that they can fill the media with stories about Labour anti-semitism - and amateur right-wing propagandists like you will fill social media with posts about anti-semitism, in a way that I don't remember you doing before it became a stick that could be used to beat the Left.

 

I didn't think Corbyn did badly in his Marr interview, despite some tough questioning. As (generally) a Labour supporter, I'm always a bit nervous that he's going to say something stupid or come across really badly.....which is not a good sign. But he was alright today, I thought.

 

The really big issue now is what happens at Labour conference re. Labour policy on a second Brexit referendum. Corbyn and others seem quite clear that if the conference votes for a second referendum, the leadership will adopt that policy - and it sounds as if Labour pro-referendum people are there in force, though they might be stitched up during the compositing of the final motion.

 

If Labour does become a pro-referendum party, that will be a big shift in UK Brexit politics - and potentially national politics. I think the current flexible policy has served the party well and that Labour would be better advised to leave the referendum issue open until May's EU negotiations end in Oct/Nov. Then, if there's no deal or May returns with an unpopular deal, they'll have a strong argument for a shift in policy. They could probably get away with shifting policy immediately, but it might look like premature opportunism and might alienate some Brexit supporters who might support a referendum IF there's no deal or May is perceived to have done a bad deal.

The reason anti-semitism wasnt used to beat the Labour party before was because the Labour party wasn't then a party that tolerated anti-semitism. If you don't want (professiomal or amatuers) pointing that out then clear those parts of the left out of the party. If you can't then fully expect it to continue, as it should.

 

I still don't see them backing a second referendum, one of the most interesting parts of the interview this morning was hearing Corbyn say he wouldn't even know if he would back remain or leave in a second referendum, right decision politically to carry on prevaricating though. 

 

I've not seen them but someone on the news was reporting McCluskey will back a second referendum but the options on it should only be May's deal or no deal. I can't see the membership going for that.

 

Anywhere here's some more "dubious anti-semitism" from conference.

 

Edited 23 September 2018 by MattP

[Guest MattP]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-options-choice-exclude-remain-eu-len-mccluskey-labour-a8551086.html?amp#click=https://t.co/D1YlfE8RKG

 

I agree with Len. 

 

The leader of the union that is Labour’s biggest financial backer has said remaining in the EU must not be an option in any new referendum on Brexit.

Len McCluskey said it would be “wrong” and would risk pushing Labour voters who had backed Leave in the 2016 referendum to support the Conservatives.

 

Instead he said any referendum must be on whether to approve the deal Theresa May agrees with Brussels and if it is rejected there should an election, which if won by Labour would mean Jeremy Corbyn still taking the UK out of the EU albeit on different terms.    

 

[urban.spaceman]

 

[leicsmac]

21 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

...and which Brexit is that?

 

Some consistency and therefore clarity on that matter might help.

[Guest MattP]

20 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

...and which Brexit is that?

 

Some consistency and therefore clarity on that matter might help.

What was promised by the government and the people in charge of both sides during the referendum campaign, an exit from the EU whilst also leaving the customs union and the single market. 

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, MattP said:

What was promised by the government and the people in charge of both sides during the referendum campaign, an exit from the EU whilst also leaving the customs union and the single market. 

Thank you for the clarification.

 

I do hope at least most of the 17.4 million Leave voters think similarly.

[bovril]

I don't really follow celeb news and social media and shit so can anyone explain why Lily Allen is such a hate figure, especially to alt-right / incel types? I mean apart from her music being shit and her being a bit of a mockney twat. 

Edited 23 September 2018 by bovril

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Thank you for the clarification.

 

I do hope at least most of the 17.4 million Leave voters think similarly.

I don't see any reason why they wouldn't. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

I don't see any reason why they wouldn't. 

There does seem to be a certain confusion about what some Leave supporters (and indeed some MP's) wish for from Brexit. If there was a unified consensus I daresay all of this might be going smoother than it is right now.

[Guest MattP]

24 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

There does seem to be a certain confusion about what some Leave supporters (and indeed some MP's) wish for from Brexit. If there was a unified consensus I daresay all of this might be going smoother than it is right now.

As long as what was promised is upheld it's not a problem.

 

She probably has to choose between a watered down Chequers, Canada +++ or WTO terms (sorry, crashing out of course)

[lifted*fox]

nothing was promised. you were asked a question. the referendum was advisory. 

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

The reason anti-semitism wasnt used to beat the Labour party before was because the Labour party wasn't then a party that tolerated anti-semitism. If you don't want (professiomal or amatuers) pointing that out then clear those parts of the left out of the party. If you can't then fully expect it to continue, as it should.

 

 

 

In my previous post, I accepted that Labour and anti-semitism was a valid issue to raise and that much of the blame for it remaining an issue was down to Corbyn doing a dreadful job at addressing it. But let's not be disingenuous: the reason why certain media outlets - and certain posters - keep returning to the issue and seeking out previous questionable comments by Corbyn isn't that they have a lifelong passionate commitment to anti-racism. It is partisan politics, an opportunity to use the issue to damage the politicians they oppose.

 

Over the past few months, you have made dozens, if not hundreds of posts about Corbyn/Labour and antisemitism. How many posts did you make about antisemitism before it arose as an issue for Labour? Or did Corbyn invent antisemitism - or become the only person to revive it since Hitler?

 

If you had non-partisan, non-propagandist motives for your avalanche of posts, you would surely also have made countless dozens of posts about Tory Islamophobia?

Here's the former Chair of the Tory party accusing it of Islamophobia:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44311092

Here's a Tory MP hosting a meeting by a Hindu Extremist who hangs out with Tommy Robinson and allegedly expresses all sorts of vile anti-Muslim views: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/anti-islam-tapan-ghosh-bob-blackman-rohingya-muslims-a8020656.html

 

Haven't heard quite so much about that in the media or from you, have we? I understand that we all have our views and want to make partisan points - and sometimes you make very good posts advocating your views, whether I agree with them or not.

But it becomes annoying propaganda if you constantly spew out posts on a single issue to attack opponents. You and other right-wing posters have criticised other posters for spewing out a stream of partisan anti-Tory or pro-Corbyn posts, with some justification. It hadn't occurred to me that you might be a professional and not an amateur propagandist, though.... If so, which right-wing group pays you? Surely their cash would be better spent on getting you to design memes for mass social media like Facebook, as Britain First and the Corbynistas have done? Not much impact in spewing propaganda into the politics thread of a football forum... 

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

In my previous post, I accepted that Labour and anti-semitism was a valid issue to raise and that much of the blame for it remaining an issue was down to Corbyn doing a dreadful job at addressing it. But let's not be disingenuous: the reason why certain media outlets - and certain posters - keep returning to the issue and seeking out previous questionable comments by Corbyn isn't that they have a lifelong passionate commitment to anti-racism. It is partisan politics, an opportunity to use the issue to damage the politicians they oppose.

 

Over the past few months, you have made dozens, if not hundreds of posts about Corbyn/Labour and antisemitism. How many posts did you make about antisemitism before it arose as an issue for Labour? Or did Corbyn invent antisemitism - or become the only person to revive it since Hitler?

 

If you had non-partisan, non-propagandist motives for your avalanche of posts, you would surely also have made countless dozens of posts about Tory Islamophobia?

Here's the former Chair of the Tory party accusing it of Islamophobia:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44311092

Here's a Tory MP hosting a meeting by a Hindu Extremist who hangs out with Tommy Robinson and allegedly expresses all sorts of vile anti-Muslim views: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/anti-islam-tapan-ghosh-bob-blackman-rohingya-muslims-a8020656.html

 

Haven't heard quite so much about that in the media or from you, have we? I understand that we all have our views and want to make partisan points - and sometimes you make very good posts advocating your views, whether I agree with them or not.

But it becomes annoying propaganda if you constantly spew out posts on a single issue to attack opponents. You and other right-wing posters have criticised other posters for spewing out a stream of partisan anti-Tory or pro-Corbyn posts, with some justification. It hadn't occurred to me that you might be a professional and not an amateur propagandist, though.... If so, which right-wing group pays you? Surely their cash would be better spent on getting you to design memes for mass social media like Facebook, as Britain First and the Corbynistas have done? Not much impact in spewing propaganda into the politics thread of a football forum... 

Has anyone ever denied it's an attempt to show Labour in a bad light? I certainly haven't. 

 

As for "Islamophobia" - well it's just a buzzword now often used to try and deflect any criticism of the religion, certainly not on a par with anti-semitism, the former is one of the world’s oldest hatreds and has caused the deaths of millions of people; the latter is a word invented by the Runnymede Trust in 1997 to demonise criticism of Islam.

 

That's not to say there isn't anti-Muslim sentiment out there and if people like Bob Blackman keep on doing this over and over again then they deserve the same treatment as the Labour party leader. 

 

If people are deliberately nasty to Muslims they should be punished and go to prison, under the current definition of the word though I think the Tories should probably be a bit more "Islamophobic".

[Charl91]

Can't agree with that more, Alf. MattP is like one of those bloody Russian propaganda robots. It really lowers the level of political discussion on these forums (not that it was particularly high to begin with!). It's amazing how someone can be so passionate about nobly defending the Jewish from anti-semitism, yet simultaneously find it very difficult to criticise Donald Trump, Islamaphobia, or any other number of problems and injustices. It's so transparent that it's laughable.

 

I like political discussion - even if it's stuff I disagree with, I like to hear other people's point of view. But just repeating the same (blown-out-of-proportion) point ad nauseum isn't political discussion, it's just a sub-par propaganda machine. Oh and look, even as I type this, we get this beauty of a quote.

 

"Not on par with anti-semitism"

 

I mean what?!?!  You can't even make this up. "Look, Labour's type of racism is worse than the Tory's racism"