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StriderHiryu

The Tactics Thread

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2 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

I think comparing Mendy to Makelele is a very lazy comparison and has been made because both are defensive minded midfielders, both are french and both are black. But both players are very different in their style of play. I'm going to use stats from the official Premier League site to compare them objectively as well as give some subjective opinion too.

Claude Makelele

p6083.png

 

300px-Bayer_Leverkusen_vs_Real_Madrid_20

 

A player so good he had a position named after him! The "Makelele" role was to sit at the base of a midfield diamond or three and make be disciplined enough to hold the line so that other players on the team could attack and make things happen. Here is his starting position in the 2003 Champions League final which Real Madrid won thanks to a brilliant Zinedine Zidane goal. In fact Zidane would later go on record as saying that selling Makelele to Chelsea was one of the worst decisions that Real Madrid ever made. He might not have been as technically brilliant as the other galacticos but with zero ego, Makelele was arguably the most important player in a team full of superstars because he facilitated the others into being able to play their game. After all I don't think you would have seen Figo or Zidane running back to make a challenge after losing the ball!

 

MakeleleDefence.PNG.a85dcd54ecf06166f2442a71d6119a71.PNG   MakelePassing.PNG.d35d1b2ca4f7a790e1ebe7da5f60f4f8.PNG


If you look at his stats, Makelele had a brilliant tackle success rate and tons of recoveries, but made rather few passes per match. Just like at Real Madrid his job was to sit back and protect, making sure the team kept it's shape so that counter attacks were nullified.

 

 

Nampalys Mendy

 

image.png.f35a2b8be7aabbf20916f3f47089d072.png

 

1144190_OGC_Nice_Cote_dAzur.jpg

 

Mendy only has eleven appearances in the Premier League but you can already see he is a very different type of player. He has a lower tackle success rate but makes many more passes per match. In fact he has the highest passing stats of any player in our team this season. So his role in our team is very different indeed. He is more of an engine room type of player for us and is very dynamic. Though he doesn't bomb forward like a box-to-box midfielder he does get about a lot and recovers the ball and distributes it to the attacking players in front of him. I've also attached a picture of the system Nice would sometimes use when Mendy was there, where performed a a very similar role to now.

Mendy played under Puel for Nice and was both Captain there and once voted their player of the season. His role is therefore as one part of the double pivot talked about in the first post in this thread. He's actually been tried in both roles, sometimes as the more defensive of the two, but recently as the more offensive one. That's why if you see the pictures of the game against Everton you see Ndidi drop back in front of the defenders whilst Mendy pushes on. Given Mendy is a much better passer than Ndidi (and the stats actually say he is our best passer) this makes sense. The interesting thing here is that for Nice, he played alongside Seri (now at Fulham) and it was Seri who pushed forward. So that's an interesting development to see.

 

MendyDefence.PNG.d45a1c2a2dc566a8db359db200052e52.PNG   MendyPassing.PNG.c40fb22d3d5cef5810deba9329b164a4.PNG

So whilst both players are defensive midfielders, their roles are quite different. Makelele was all about being disciplined and tactically aware. Making sure the team's shape never broke and there was never an opportunity to break on his team. And given how important he was for France, Real Madrid and Chelsea he goes down in history and one of the best "water carrier" type of midfielders ever. The player most like him would probably be Deschamps.

Mendy is a defensive double-pivot style player and "the engine room of our own half." His job is to help get the bacll from our defenders to our attacking players but via short, incisive and accurate passing. We no longer just smash the ball from defence to attack, but now try to play through the lines. But Mendy is there to bring it to the attacking players and it's up to Maddison primarily to take it from there and run the attacking third side of our game. If you look at French football there are still a number of teams that play this way but if I had to describe a player most similar to him right now... I'd actually go for Busquets of Barcelona and Spain even though he is quite a different player.

If he's kind of player to play quick short pass to the playmaker ahead of him, whats made his pass with makalele different? 

 

From on the ball aspect, is he simmilar with kante? It seems kante also love to run forward and play short pass, but of course better dribbling and speed. 

 

And when off the ball, what happened? 

 

Btw, how come in that pic madrid play with 2 winger as cm, and nobody in winger position? Looks very unbalanced

Edited by Hanan96
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  • 2 months later...

We looked more solid in a 4-3-3 yesterday. In the future (next season probably), what about the 4-3-1-2 Puel used at Nice, which is very similar to the 4-3-3. 

 

Schmeichel

Pereira, Benkovic, Maguire, Chilwell

New CM, Choudhury, New CM

Maddison

Vardy, Barnes

 

Sign two CM's who are creative/box to box to play alongside a DM. The new CM's can be rotated with our other DM's (Mendy/Ndidi) if we need to go more defensive. This formation will also allow us to get Maddison and Barnes in the same starting 11. Vardy will have a strike partner to feed off in Barnes and Maddison will have licence to roam like Ben Arfa did. We can also switch to 4-3-3 mid game by bringing on our wingers like Gray, etc. I guess width might be an issue but Pereira and Chilwell should have more licence to get forward in this formation. 

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Similar today as Chelsea. Block the passing line into the central midfielders and get Man City’s defenders playing it wide. Greatly helped that the opposition had two full backs not wishing to overlap. 

 

Delph was very centrally positioned and Danilo cautious of Chilwell’s pace. The third midfielder ensures Man City couldn’t use the inside channel between the CBs and FBs. 

Edited by Cardiff_Fox
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  • 10 months later...
1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

Mooted in the ‘do they mean us’ thread so I’m resurrecting this one for @StriderHiryu to educate and entertain us all with his tactical observations, if he has the time or interest. 
 

All those in favour say aye. 
 

No pressure or anything. 
 

(do it)

I'm new here so my vote probably means nothing, but aye.

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1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

Mooted in the ‘do they mean us’ thread so I’m resurrecting this one for @StriderHiryu to educate and entertain us all with his tactical observations, if he has the time or interest. 
 

All those in favour say aye. 
 

No pressure or anything. 
 

(do it)

:wub: @you and @StriderHiryu

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11 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

Mooted in the ‘do they mean us’ thread so I’m resurrecting this one for @StriderHiryu to educate and entertain us all with his tactical observations, if he has the time or interest. 
 

All those in favour say aye. 
 

No pressure or anything. 
 

(do it)

aye

 

....taps foot, looks at watch

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This is just an observation, but I don't remember Rodgers using a press like this while at Swansea or Liverpool. Admittedly, I didn't watch Celtic under him.

 

I guess you could say he's taking a page out of Klopp's book (I believe it was Liverpool who discovered pressing ;)). But it only makes sense when so many teams in the Premier League today are trying to play it out from the back, as was the case with Arsenal.

 

Anyway, I am just impressed by Rodgers' flexibility and his ability to implement a system like this so quickly.

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41 minutes ago, cstrafe said:

This is just an observation, but I don't remember Rodgers using a press like this while at Swansea or Liverpool. Admittedly, I didn't watch Celtic under him.

 

I guess you could say he's taking a page out of Klopp's book (I believe it was Liverpool who discovered pressing ;)). But it only makes sense when so many teams in the Premier League today are trying to play it out from the back, as was the case with Arsenal.

 

Anyway, I am just impressed by Rodgers' flexibility and his ability to implement a system like this so quickly.

He did use it at Liverpool, but not at Swansea.

 

At Swansea, his team was much more based on the Barcelona style at the time of very heavy possession and passing opponents to death. They were close to peak Wenger era Arsenal than anything. It was interesting to see his approach at Liverpool as he was expected to replicate that style there, but instead made them Dortmund-esque instead. Clearly his tactical thinking was influenced by what was going on in Europe, though to be fair Barcelona at that time were also starting to press. He may also have decided on that style after looking at the players he had at his disposal at Liverpool and thought it to be a better fit.

 

You can read more about it from this old but very good article:
http://outsideoftheboot.com/2015/07/08/tactical-philosophy-brendan-rodgers/

 

The Liverpool of 2013/14 turned out to be an efficient counter-attacking unit and showcased Rodgers’ ability to adapt and evolve. When he knew that his Swansea tactics had little chances of success, he turned to man-management and built a system based on the strengths of individual players. The message was clear- when a manager’s ideas do not work, he turns to his players and knowing his players’ strengths and weaknesses needs to be a part of his tactical philosophy as much as any pre-conceived ideal.

 

He had been hired to make Liverpool the English Barcelona; he ended up making them the English Dortmund. Not that the Anfield faithful were complaining.

 

 

Edited by StriderHiryu
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@StriderHiryu thanks I'll give this a read. I know that Rodgers was heavily influenced by Barcelona. I think he spent some time there if I'm not mistaken.

 

It's good to see though that Rodgers was astute enough to modify his style. We all saw what happened to Wenger and his approach when he refused to change. It's funny though that during his time at Swansea, Rodgers' Swansea gave Arsenal a ton of trouble.

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15 minutes ago, Stadt said:

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned too often (if it all) is that our 4141/433 is quite unorthodox in the sense that our striker plays so high and doesn't get involved in the build up. 88917377_Screenshot2019-11-19at15.thumb.jpg.c3ceb26d1d29246779b4c634d7c764bc.jpg

Usually in a 433 the striker drops deep in a situation like this but because of Vardy's positioning (and his pace) teams drop deeper to avoid the ball over the top. Subsequently though, it creates a huge amount of space in the midfield and that's where our most dangerous ball players are, Maddison and Tielemans with that amount of space are lethal because they've both got the ability to find a pass or score from distance. The wingers stay wide during our build up play as well and that drags the opposition back line wider as well as deep helping to create even more space. In that screenshot above, Maddison plays a round the corner pass that carves open their midfield. Ndidi overruns it but we counterpleas immediately to win the ball back because they hoof it clear. I think the difference here compared to Puel for example is that Ndidi is much more adventurous with his positioning and we have more players ahead of the ball which creates problems as its harder to press the ball.

 

If we play a conventional 433 where the striker does drop, not only does it not play to our most important player's strengths it'd mean Arsenal push up there, prevent the space and we play a bit deeper to draw them out - we work so well as unit because our centre backs are competent on the ball; if it goes backwards it's being moved forwards relatively quickly again and our fullbacks are capable of causing problems too so we're a difficult side to press aggressively against because usually teams allow fullbacks to progress more easily. In short we're dangerous from front to back and its f ucking ace.

In the conventional 433 way the striker drops back to supplement the midfield ala Okazaki and to create space for the other 2 in the prongs to come into. Requires a 10, false 9 or a player that can play with his back to goal, which as you say, draws the opposition out to cope with the extra man.

As mentioned before, our way of play is a bit more Man City where our other players are creating the space for Vardy to get in behind. Think it was MOTD where they said Vardy's playing in the half spaces between the lines opposed to actually coming for the ball to link the rest of the team. So instead of being marked and isolated bringing in others, he's there keeping the whole back line on their toes. Having 2 interchanging, exceptional passers playing as dual 8's to shift the ball to the wings where we have overlapping fullbacks, interchanging with the top 2 attackers, allows in Maddison and Tielemans into that middle area as they push up. Even Ndidi is in around the box area, his shot that hit the cross bar. 

Brendan is doing a marvellous job in making us this potent Man City/Liverpool hybrid. 

We can pass from front to back and back to front, quickly and with intent. But we also use and deny space for others, win the ball back with our high energy counter press and still able to launch a counter attack over the top quickly. 

 

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2 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

No, I have not, but I sense I may be about to be (What do the kids call it these days?) pwned...:blush:

 

lol

Haha no no no, it's just a book written about some of the metrics that have gained traction recently. The author is tied into the Statsbomb community.

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2 hours ago, cstrafe said:

The space that Arsenal left between their lines is inexcusable.

 

@Dahnsouff Statsbomb! Have you read Football Hackers?

It's a brilliant read if you're into analytics, written by a Bochum fan too so there's another link to Leicester as well (iirc correctly we're mentioned a few times)

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13 minutes ago, LC/FC said:

Football equivalent of 'Moneyball'? 

I didn't read Moneyball, but it's referenced quite a bit in the book and judging by that I would have to say 'no'. The author analyses a variety of different managers and the approaches that they took to build teams, how they play, etc. Sometimes their methods involved data analysis, but others not. The author does try to use the data to support why a team or player performed a certain way though. It's basically a book in support of data analytics in football.

 

5 minutes ago, Stadt said:

It's a brilliant read if you're into analytics, written by a Bochum fan too so there's another link to Leicester as well (iirc correctly we're mentioned a few times)

Yep. I just finished it a few weeks ago. Some of the material is a bit too "behind the desk" for me, but I do understand how helpful it could be to clubs. I just have a hard time understanding some of the metrics.

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  • 3 weeks later...
4 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Posting this video again in this thread, as it's specifically about the 4141:

 

 

Awesome to watch to understand some of the nuances of how we play. E.g. distances between players, pressing as a unit, etc.

Saw this the other day as well. I like Carragher when he sits down and does these. He also had a good analysis of the counters United launched against City over the weekend as well as an analysis of Liverpool and Milan in Istanbul.

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4 hours ago, cstrafe said:

Saw this the other day as well. I like Carragher when he sits down and does these. He also had a good analysis of the counters United launched against City over the weekend as well as an analysis of Liverpool and Milan in Istanbul.

I think Carragher and Gerrard have a lot of respect for Rodgers having played under him and getting so close to the title. Ultimately you could even say it was the Liverpool players who let Rodgers down to give up the title although there is also an argument to say Mourinho got the better of the tactical battle when Gerrard slipped. 

 

But a great video to watch and I hope they do more of them!

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