The Tactics Thread

[brucey]

https://onfootball.substack.com/p/is-brendan-rodgers-finding-yet-another

[StanSP]

Not sure where else to put it but I really can't wait until Ricardo/Castagne come back. It might see less game-time for Justin/Thomas but from what we've seen so far from them, it actually gives me confidence as to how they'll be used going forward. They'll be ready to step up knowing how we play and will be formidable as back-up. They'll definitely see enough game-time for Europa League games and rotation in PL games to keep players fresh. That's on the basis we don't suffer further injuries! Of course Ricardo will be eased in and probably won't see him actually start a game until Dec?

 

When is Castagne back? Liverpool game?

[Paninistickers]

13 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Not sure where else to put it but I really can't wait until Ricardo/Castagne come back. It might see less game-time for Justin/Thomas but from what we've seen so far from them, it actually gives me confidence as to how they'll be used going forward. They'll be ready to step up knowing how we play and will be formidable as back-up. They'll definitely see enough game-time for Europa League games and rotation in PL games to keep players fresh. That's on the basis we don't suffer further injuries! Of course Ricardo will be eased in and probably won't see him actually start a game until Dec?

 

When is Castagne back? Liverpool game?

I reckon it might be some considerable time til we see peak Ricardo.....it could take 2/3 months for him.to hit stride and could well be a bench / rotation player behind Jim Justin for the rest of this season. 

 

Someone else said on here earlier this week, that they'll wince evvrytime he goes into a challenge. Me too.

[StanSP]

4 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

I reckon it might be some considerable time til we see peak Ricardo.....it could take 2/3 months for him.to hit stride and could well be a bench / rotation player behind Jim Justin for the rest of this season. 

 

Someone else said on here earlier this week, that they'll wince evvrytime he goes into a challenge. Me too.

Oh of course. I agree definitely. Might take a while but it'll just be great to see him playing again.

[when_you're_smiling]

Hey @StriderHiryu Wondered if you had any tactical insight into the reasons for the difference in the two halves yesterday? Would’ve thought they would have had to change the formation to improve but didn’t see that at all. Obviously better players help (Tielemans in particular) but were there other reasons we suddenly started playing 40 yards further forward? 

[StriderHiryu]

Just now, when_you're_smiling said:

Hey @StriderHiryu Wondered if you had any tactical insight into the reasons for the difference in the two halves yesterday? Would’ve thought they would have had to change the formation to improve but didn’t see that at all. Obviously better players help (Tielemans in particular) but were there other reasons we suddenly started playing 40 yards further forward? 

That's an interesting one because Rodgers mentioned we changed the system, but we only did that when Vardy came on from what I could see. A game like this is quite hard to follow because it's too easy to get caught up in the emotion of the match, and yesterday was a really enjoyable match and easy to get lost in! As I saw it, the main tactical "beats" of the match were:

 

- Started with a 3421

 

- Changed Tielemans for Praet, Fofana for Fuchs at halftime. 

Praet couldn't dictate the game like Tielemans can, Fuchs was having a tough time against the pace of Sequira(?) and Medeiros (I think that's their names!). No system change, but notable that Tielemans passed forward at every opportunity and we pressed the game a lot more. James Justin was given a lot more licence to push forward as the spare centre back. One thing I did notice was that Al Musrati (their first goal scorer) saw a lot less of the ball in the second half, and in the first half he seemed to be their metronome player, a bit like Tielemans for us. He had a very good game actually and I think nullifying him got us control of the game. But I didn't see anyone specifically target him.

 

- Brought on Vardy and Maddison at 60 minutes for Barnes and Under. This changed the game and at this point we went 3412, with Nacho and Vardy up top. 

 

- Brought on Perez for Nacho at 70 minutes. Perez played up top as a striker and did some decent pressing.

 

I almost certainly missed a lot here, so do feel free to mention anything you might have spotted. Second half we brought on 100m+ of attacking talent plus our greatest ever player. Funnily enough, we did improve a lot after that!

[when_you're_smiling]

19 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

That's an interesting one because Rodgers mentioned we changed the system, but we only did that when Vardy came on from what I could see. A game like this is quite hard to follow because it's too easy to get caught up in the emotion of the match, and yesterday was a really enjoyable match and easy to get lost in! As I saw it, the main tactical "beats" of the match were:

 

- Started with a 3421

 

- Changed Tielemans for Praet, Fofana for Fuchs at halftime. 

Praet couldn't dictate the game like Tielemans can, Fuchs was having a tough time against the pace of Sequira(?) and Medeiros (I think that's their names!). No system change, but notable that Tielemans passed forward at every opportunity and we pressed the game a lot more. James Justin was given a lot more licence to push forward as the spare centre back. One thing I did notice was that Al Musrati (their first goal scorer) saw a lot less of the ball in the second half, and in the first half he seemed to be their metronome player, a bit like Tielemans for us. He had a very good game actually and I think nullifying him got us control of the game. But I didn't see anyone specifically target him.

 

- Brought on Vardy and Maddison at 60 minutes for Barnes and Under. This changed the game and at this point we went 3412, with Nacho and Vardy up top. 

 

- Brought on Perez for Nacho at 70 minutes. Perez played up top as a striker and did some decent pressing.

 

I almost certainly missed a lot here, so do feel free to mention anything you might have spotted. Second half we brought on 100m+ of attacking talent plus our greatest ever player. Funnily enough, we did improve a lot after that!

No, I’ve no idea. It’s a fair point about £100m + of attacking talent. Guess still struggle with the idea little ol’ Leicester have anything like that kind of attacking talent. Still use to Elvis Hammond and Barry Hayles waiting to come on.

[davieG]

I thought it was a case of long balls from the back in the first half to playing it out more and through the middle in the 2nd half which we able to do with Youri & Young Wes.

 

Our main problem at the moment is a lack of passing accuracy we're giving the ball away far to much and in that 1st half those long balls were rarely hitting the spot.

[l444ry]

Braga seemed to have learned from Liverpool's approach. They pushed numbers on to occupy our back three and wing backs which completely stifled us. When we did get possession our midfield was outnumbered and this resulted in long balls to the front and lost possession or isolated strikers. The substitutions in the second half made things better possession wise, but to play this system to it's best we possiby need more accomplished wing backs in the long run and certainly Youri in the starting eleven. 

Edited 27 November 2020 by l444ry

[messerschmitt]

I think Fafana made a huge difference to us attacking wise, no idea what he was told but brought the ball much further out than any other of our centre backs.

[Guest SO1]

3 hours ago, messerschmitt said:

I think Fafana made a huge difference to us attacking wise, no idea what he was told but brought the ball much further out than any other of our centre backs.

I think that playing with a back 3 means that 2 can stay back and 1 can go forwards or any combination Rodgers decides based on our intent in the match. Flexibility is key for us.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

 

[StanSP]

More class analysis

 

 

[Facecloth]

7 hours ago, StanSP said:

More class analysis

 

 

I stopped reading when he said we were Still playing 3 at the back, and Justin and Albrighton switched wings. We changed formation to 4 at the back 😂

[blaaklint]

Personally, I'm p sure you could describe it as a 3atb going forward since Justin was still playing like a wingback and Perez was more taking up more central spaces, also fuchs was hardly pushing up. defensively, it was more of a flat four tho, with perez coming back out wide. i think people are entirely too rigid about formations when in reality most teams try and play quite fluidly, attack-wise

[StriderHiryu]

2 hours ago, Facecloth said:

I stopped reading when he said we were Still playing 3 at the back, and Justin and Albrighton switched wings. We changed formation to 4 at the back 😂

He also said we played 4231 which is also incorrect. That systems means a double pivot where 2 midfielders sit back and protect, aka Puel style with Ndidi and Mendy. When we play 4 at the back we unsurprisingly play more like Rodgers' Swansea team with one sitter, one deep lying playmaker in Tielemans and one advanced playmaker in Maddison. 

 

But yeah whilst this guy usually posts good analysis, he's got it totally wrong this time round. The game was chaotic and basketball like because Brighton played 4 at the back instead of the usual 3 like they played against Liverpool. Both teams looked equally likely to score and Brighton should have gone ahead given their chances. Rodgers then adjusted the system to match up with them and our better overall quality paid off. We won that game comfortably because Rodgers made the tactical change, that was the single most important change of the match, and was the reason we won it.

[LVFox]

25 minutes ago, blaaklint said:

Personally, I'm p sure you could describe it as a 3atb going forward since Justin was still playing like a wingback and Perez was more taking up more central spaces, also fuchs was hardly pushing up. defensively, it was more of a flat four tho, with perez coming back out wide. i think people are entirely too rigid about formations when in reality most teams try and play quite fluidly, attack-wise

This shows a little bit of why the 3 at the back/4 at the back argument amongst fans is overthought. We switched to a 4, Brendan admitted so, but you won't see Fuchs bombing forward like Justin did, so when attacking we still have 3 at the back.

What it did allow was Maddison to get more central and occupy Gross and Bissouma, leaving their narrow wingers having to press Wilf & Youri more.

 

Sometimes 3 at the back will work, sometimes 4 will work...and sometimes, players just play crap or well regardless of system.

[blaaklint]

1 minute ago, LVocey said:

This shows a little bit of why the 3 at the back/4 at the back argument amongst fans is overthought. We switched to a 4, Brendan admitted so, but you won't see Fuchs bombing forward like Justin did, so when attacking we still have 3 at the back.

What it did allow was Maddison to get more central and occupy Gross and Bissouma, leaving their narrow wingers having to press Wilf & Youri more.

 

Sometimes 3 at the back will work, sometimes 4 will work...and sometimes, players just play crap or well regardless of system.

you're completely right that people overegg formations. ig they get talked about because they're shorthand (and inherently limited) descriptions of what players do. at the most basic level they are helpful, but two different players in the "same" position are gonna play it differently. when people just go "oh i hate 3atb/we were definitely playing with a midfield", i often feel like they're immediately limiting and simplifying what is actually an incredibly complex, intricate game

[StriderHiryu]

Really interesting game today against Spurs. One of our best performances for a while, but to out fox Mourinho on his own turf; credit is definitely due!

 

Some things that caught my eye:

• Put Castagne on the left hand side instead of the right, and had JJ and Sharky on the right hand side. How many times did Son get on the ball in that match? That happened for a reason, those two did a number on Son and Regullion. JJ''s pace was why he played that side instead of Timmy. Timmy made fewer forward runs but was defensively excellent. Shows he can play left and right!
• Every time Kane got the ball in midfield we clattered him. Kane has turned into something of a playmaker this season and frequently assists Son, Lo Celso, Bergwijn. This is the first game in what seems like forever where Kane didn't score, and didn't look like scoring.
• Shifted to 3 at the back after we went 2-0 up and brought on Amartey for Castagne. Amartey was excellent I thought and didn't put a foot wrong. 

At the start of the game I was a bit hesitant. So many teams have setup to attack Spurs at their home and got taken apart on the counter attack. But the strategy worked! Spurs hardly did anything all game long and we made their hugely talented players look ordinary. Kane / Son / Bale is as good a front 3 as any team in the world can claim to have, and between the lot of them they did nothing.

[Nicolo Barella]

We were lucky Mourinho decided to take Ndombele off and Lo Celso immediately got injured after. They had so little midfield creativity on the field, it made our job a lot easier.

[Steve Earle]

I'm still not sure that Sunday's formation can be easily labelled. It was a kind of 3421, but the roles of two players in particular (JJ & Barnes) were very different from an orthodox 3421 set up. What I am sure of is that Rodgers out-thought an elite manager, for the second time this season (Man C the other) which hadn't happened at all before this season.

 

My reading of it was that JJ, Fofana & Evans were a back three, but not usually set up centrally, more like an orthodox 4, with JJ at RB, two CBs and Castagne at LWB for his 60 mins, with Albrighton as a deep RM. On occasion, when being attacked down Spurs' right, the back 3 would shift across to standard positions for a 3, with Albrighton dropping to RB. My impression anyway? 

 

What struck me most was it's fluidity. JJ & Albrighton were set up to, and did nullify Son, and Fofana would maintain the overload if Reguilon joined the attack (by the way, did he? Was he ever seen in our final third?). On the other flank Barnes played wider than Maddison (of the '2' behind Vardy) offering cover ahead of Castagne, and Evans would maintain the overload if Spurs sent two down their right. Huge kudos to Barnes and Albrighton for their tactical discipline throughout. All of this works, of course, because of our three-man central midfield: Tielemans and the Ndidi twins!  

 

Agree that we were more orthodox 3421 after Amartey came on. Fingers crossed with him fit and Soyuncu almost fit, we won't need a CB this window.

[King of Gipsy Lane]

Pass it forward , get it in the net 

[Chocolate Teapot]

The most interesting thing for me on Sunday is that we defended with maddison playing as a striker.

 

I remember man City did that to us at their place last year and we really struggled to break the lines - I've not seen us do that before.

[StanSP]

Seen a lot of talk about Albrighton's praise from Rodgers last night and obviously Youri and his impact in central midfield. It got me thinking about what Crouch said last night after the game 'they have a fantastic blend here'. 

 

Got me thinking just how true it is, and it is even more prevalent now we have some big players back in Soyuncu and Ricardo, and Ndidi. Very good balance in the side. Albrighton's defensive work is so underrated by non-Leicester fans - all they see is whether he can cross the ball or attack as a winger they use and see on FIFA. Rodgers alluded to it yesterday, about how hard he works and how much running he does for the team. You know what you'll get with him. There was a moment at 1-0 where Southampton attacked in numbers and he was back defending at the back post heading away and in the right position. It's something he's improved on under Rodgers. 

 

You can see the same trait in Youri. He does so much tracking back and is one of the first back after an attack and we're being countered. His help, usually to the LB or left CB, is brilliant because if we do win the ball back, he's also always the one to show for the ball and give off quick 1-2s and get us out of danger. He's a workhorse with the vision and creativity and that's the kind of blend which makes us tick in that middle third. It's something you've seen in De Bruyne under Pep as well. Yeah he can give you an assist or goal in most games but he does a hell of a lot of defensive work, getting blocks of crosses in or just being another body for a team to work around. Players like Youri and De Bruyne dominate the middle third from deep, and they have the intelligence to attack with a run off the ball (like YT vs Newcastle) at the right time. They know how to use their energy well. 

 

Rodgers seems to have instilled the 100% minimum effort ethos. Do that and the rest will follow. You can even see it in Perez now. He had his moments (good and bad) yesterday but one thing I loved is putting that shift in to help the midfield and defence out, and not just tracking back but winning the ball too. Those vital moments help us in the victory like yesterday. Help avert the danger and reap the rewards as you push up the pitch. That 'chat' Rodgers must have had with him a month or two ago has worked wonders for his confidence and it shows on the pitch. 

 

The current formation and personnel works well. That 'blend' comes in very handy when you have Justin and Castagne providing that attacking attitude and those runs either side. And there's still Ricardo to come back and do the same too. 

 

We are in such a good place right now and not just in the league table. We have a very determined manager who will always continue to support and improve our players for what's best for the club, we have a superb crop of players and with some of the team coming back to full fitness, a good amount of depth too. Obviously Praet now out for a while is unfortunate but we have a decent level of back up now too. 

[Foxes96]

I think an interesting development this season has been a switch to more of a 4-2-3-1 as opposed to the 4-3-3 used for much of last season. Whilst the 4-3-3 with Youri and Madders both playing as attacking 8/10’s was breathtaking at times - highlighted by our 10 game winning run at the start of last season - it also left us a little vulnerable, and meant our play was a little lateral at times. At its best it meant we had both Madders and Youri supporting Vardy with Perez and Barnes alongside him and offering width. However as the season progressed I feel teams worked us out and thus we had to push our players further forward which either resulted in Maddison and tielemans too high up, as well as our FB’s pushing up to overlap leaving us vulnerable to counter attacks, or Maddison and Tielemans both coming too deep to collect the ball from the defence and having limited options ahead of them with the opposition being better able to mark Vardy out of the game. This in turn led to the Puel-esque type sideways passing which was much less effective. 
 

This season, however by Maddison playing closer to Vardy - means that not only does Vardy have more support but Maddison is better able to get in between the channels and create chance/ get shots away - hence his greater output this season. Moreover, i feel this change has also enabled Tielemans to control the game a bit better from deep and also has more options in front of him to create something.

 

What’s impressed me this season has been Brendans tactical flexibility and how we’ve been able to transition from a 3-4-2-1 to a 4-2-3-1 within games whether we’ve been defending or attacking, as well as the tactical flexibility of our players. For now we surely have one of the best/ most balanced midfields in the league if not the world in Wilf, Youri and Madders, and what’s more they are all a couple of years from their peak. I’m sure there are lots of other tactical nuances and changes this season which hopefully means we can last the course this season looking a bit more defensively solid, and threatening in attack but just that’s just my view on one of the positive changes we’ve seen this season. What a time to be a fox 🦊