The Tactics Thread

[lcfc sheff]

Our defensive shape seems to go to a back five, with Ricardo going to RWB. Is this simply because teams are trying to overload our right hand side (Targeting Amartey and Morgan) or is this something we're wanting to happen?

[StriderHiryu]

3 minutes ago, lcfc sheff said:

Our defensive shape seems to go to a back five, with Ricardo going to RWB. Is this simply because teams are trying to overload our right hand side (Targeting Amartey and Morgan) or is this something we're wanting to happen?

Hard one to answer because depending on the opponent that could be deliberate or it might not be. Versus Southampton I felt it was a necessity rather than planned because Redmond gave Amartey a torrid time and had we not made that adjustment we would have been in big trouble. 

[l444ry]

2 hours ago, lcfc sheff said:

Our defensive shape seems to go to a back five, with Ricardo going to RWB. Is this simply because teams are trying to overload our right hand side (Targeting Amartey and Morgan) or is this something we're wanting to happen?

Full back areas are nearly always the place the 4-2-3-1 is exploited. It's a pretty much well accepted "weakness" of the system. The attacking midfielders can get caught between pressing high and protecting the flanks, especially in transition. Often the defensive midfielders are assigned one side each to compensate when defending breaks but this can then leave the central area light.   

Edited 26 August 2018 by l444ry

[Plastik Man]

On 24/08/2018 at 21:39, Stadt said:

We soon sharpened up defensively so I think it’s just a case of being rusty with us having played less than 100 minutes at that point. Long term we’ll probably be playing Benkovic and Soyuncu so we’ll be more capable playing a high line 

I've been thinking about the lack of pace in central defence. I'm really looking forward to seeing Söyünçü, he'll certainly add a bit more pace.  That should allow a higher defensive line improving the passing between defence and midfield, but perhaps also allowing the midfield to give more support to the attack?

 

[lgfualol]

What I would like is for players to get in the box when we do crosses. 

[Stadt]

1 hour ago, Plastik Man said:

I've been thinking about the lack of pace in central defence. I'm really looking forward to seeing Söyünçü, he'll certainly add a bit more pace.  That should allow a higher defensive line improving the passing between defence and midfield, but perhaps also allowing the midfield to give more support to the attack?

 

In our system the central pairing need to be deep and disciplined to cover the full backs as they get forward so aggressively. Our biggest issue at the minute is that our build up is poor because Ndidi + Silva/Mendy have struggled to break opposition lines.

[Plastik Man]

2 hours ago, Stadt said:

In our system the central pairing need to be deep and disciplined to cover the full backs as they get forward so aggressively. Our biggest issue at the minute is that our build up is poor because Ndidi + Silva/Mendy have struggled to break opposition lines.

I understand that they have to be deep but are they not even deeper currently due to a chronic lack of pace?

I like Mendy's busy, neat passing and of course Ndidi's strong tackling though his passing does let him down a little. We're more disciplined in midfield with Mendy partnering Ndidi but lose a dynamic Silva provides in breaking lines. I guess we'd have to spend mega bucks to get a player that does it all!

[l444ry]

17 minutes ago, Plastik Man said:

I understand that they have to be deep but are they not even deeper currently due to a chronic lack of pace?

I like Mendy's busy, neat passing and of course Ndidi's strong tackling though his passing does let him down a little. We're more disciplined in midfield with Mendy partnering Ndidi but lose a dynamic Silva provides in breaking lines. I guess we'd have to spend mega bucks to get a player that does it all!

Seems to me that we are sound defensively. It's getting quality into the final third that is "lacking" at the moment.

[StriderHiryu]

5 minutes ago, Plastik Man said:

I understand that they have to be deep but are they not even deeper currently due to a chronic lack of pace?

I like Mendy's busy, neat passing and of course Ndidi's strong tackling though his passing does let him down a little. We're more disciplined in midfield with Mendy partnering Ndidi but lose a dynamic Silva provides in breaking lines. I guess we'd have to spend mega bucks to get a player that does it all!

It's very hard to find a player that truly can do it all, as almost all midfielders have a range of both strengths and weaknesses. The reason why Man United paid so much for Pogba is because supposedly he is a "unicorn" player that does have it all, but he's not really shown it in the Premier League consistently yet (though he did have a good world cup). A player who we maybe could have got would be Seri from Fulham who played in the double pivot at Nice as the more creative of the two central midfielders and cost them something like 24M. Otherwise you're talking about players out of our league like Jorginho, Kroos, David Silva, Rakitic, who can play central midfield and create, or you go for more of the defensive midfield powerhouse type like William Carvalho, Idrissa Gueye, etc. In the league at the moment *maybe* Keita of Liverpool can do it all, but then he seems to be more of a box-to-box player rather than a double pivot, even if he could probably play that role quite easily.

I feel like on paper Adrien Silva should be ideal for the position, but he's never really done it for us and based on his two games this season I can't see him winning back his place ahead of Mendy. Mendy might not have turned up any trees, but he was super solid in both his games and shown more than Silva has for us so far. Iborra did have some very good games for us alongside Ndidi, but he holds the ball for a long time (likely due to his experience at Sevilla) and seems to have fallen out of favour with Puel again. In fact I could see him leaving on loan before the end of the month as a result.

Central midfield might be a potential problem as the season progresses but I feel like we have decent options even if not first class ones, hence why buying another wasn't really necessary, especially with Mendy basically acting like a new signing anyway.

A criticism from many is that despite the double pivot and having Maddison we don't really have that much possession or control the game too well, which I think is both fair and accurate. But I would also say that our current lineup has played very few games together and hasn't had much time on the training ground. Mendy and Ndidi do look like a good partnership with good understanding and over time hopefully those two plus Maddison and the wide forwards all click with one another. Playing such a system you need to be able to close your eyes and know where your team mates should be, and you need to get on the same wavelength of when to pass and release the ball. That could honestly take a number of months, so that we are picking up points already is a good sign as if we correct all the mistakes and work on the details we should have the nucleus of a very good side.

Regardless it should be an interesting experiment and I'd personally be surprised if we got embroiled in a relegation battle. I just hope to see the team improve over the year with passes coming off more often and controlling the game better, regardless of results. Last season Puel started off very well indeed but then we tailed off seemingly for no reason, so hopefully this time round we keep the good form for longer.

[Plastik Man]

46 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

It's very hard to find a player that truly can do it all, as almost all midfielders have a range of both strengths and weaknesses. The reason why Man United paid so much for Pogba is because supposedly he is a "unicorn" player that does have it all, but he's not really shown it in the Premier League consistently yet (though he did have a good world cup). A player who we maybe could have got would be Seri from Fulham who played in the double pivot at Nice as the more creative of the two central midfielders and cost them something like 24M. Otherwise you're talking about players out of our league like Jorginho, Kroos, David Silva, Rakitic, who can play central midfield and create, or you go for more of the defensive midfield powerhouse type like William Carvalho, Idrissa Gueye, etc. In the league at the moment *maybe* Keita of Liverpool can do it all, but then he seems to be more of a box-to-box player rather than a double pivot, even if he could probably play that role quite easily.

I feel like on paper Adrien Silva should be ideal for the position, but he's never really done it for us and based on his two games this season I can't see him winning back his place ahead of Mendy. Mendy might not have turned up any trees, but he was super solid in both his games and shown more than Silva has for us so far. Iborra did have some very good games for us alongside Ndidi, but he holds the ball for a long time (likely due to his experience at Sevilla) and seems to have fallen out of favour with Puel again. In fact I could see him leaving on loan before the end of the month as a result.

Central midfield might be a potential problem as the season progresses but I feel like we have decent options even if not first class ones, hence why buying another wasn't really necessary, especially with Mendy basically acting like a new signing anyway.

A criticism from many is that despite the double pivot and having Maddison we don't really have that much possession or control the game too well, which I think is both fair and accurate. But I would also say that our current lineup has played very few games together and hasn't had much time on the training ground. Mendy and Ndidi do look like a good partnership with good understanding and over time hopefully those two plus Maddison and the wide forwards all click with one another. Playing such a system you need to be able to close your eyes and know where your team mates should be, and you need to get on the same wavelength of when to pass and release the ball. That could honestly take a number of months, so that we are picking up points already is a good sign as if we correct all the mistakes and work on the details we should have the nucleus of a very good side.

Regardless it should be an interesting experiment and I'd personally be surprised if we got embroiled in a relegation battle. I just hope to see the team improve over the year with passes coming off more often and controlling the game better, regardless of results. Last season Puel started off very well indeed but then we tailed off seemingly for no reason, so hopefully this time round we keep the good form for longer.

I agree it will take time to gel the formation. Morale seems high in the squad with youth getting its chance and that may speed up the gelling process.

Despite us not hitting form I've been pleased with improvements in some of the young players like Chilwell and a Gray, new signings like Maddison and Ricardo, and the Lazarus like return of Mendy. I'm really excited about this season as it really seems like we could make great progress.

Right back is interesting as it's not clear what Puel wants, or is it just Ricardo is currently offering more further forward than the other options?  I wouldn't be surprised to see Söyünçü at right back when he makes his debut. I like Amartey, he has pace and strength, but does seem prone to rickets. I guess he too is still only 22 so may mature.

Edited 26 August 2018 by Plastik Man
Chigwell!

[Blue Ed]

I have great success with Leicester on Fifa playing 433. 

[That_Dude]

On 23/08/2018 at 18:54, Bunyip said:

They are professional players playing at the very top in football they shouldn't need telling where to stand. This system explained simply. pass side to side then back then forward only a few feet than side to side and back again. Slowly build up while the opposition gets back in numbers and read every pass you make. Then when you do get the ball in their area make sure you only have one striker who is isolated and easily closed down. Against Wolves we had an own goal and a deflected goal from a midfielder and our goal post on three occasions to get us the points. Plus how many other teams in the Prem play this system?

You really, really should have read the original post.

[Ian Nacho]

At times on Saturday,  the wingers were so far away from the fullbacks, whenever a fullback got the ball he would look up forwards to pass it to a winger, realise he was too far away, then go backwards or sideways. 

[davieG]

Too much emphasis put on tactics all these guys with their clipboards spewing out endless waffle when sub a player half of which are not even listening.

Bring back the days when it was just the manager and one assistant telling the players in simple words to go out and enjoy the game, close so and down etc.

[Bunyip]

16 hours ago, That_Dude said:

You really, really should have read the original post.

I really really did. Hence my reply.

[l444ry]

38 minutes ago, davieG said:

Too much emphasis put on tactics all these guys with their clipboards spewing out endless waffle when sub a player half of which are not even listening.

Bring back the days when it was just the manager and one assistant telling the players in simple words to go out and enjoy the game, close so and down etc.

In fairness davieG, the clipboard can be useful for showing clearly the role of that player when defending or attacking at corners etc.

[Detroit Blues]

Like it or not, tactics play a huge part in winning and losing. Unfortunately, it seems like the vast majority of people here are blissfully ignorant as to what our coaches are trying to do, and they wax nostalgic about better times when our team was shit and we hoofed cross after cross in the box for someone who is lucky enough to get a head onto it.

Never mind that it's 2018 and the premier league has all the best managers in the world. Do you really think Klopp is just going to send out his team and give them some nice words of encouragement? How do you think playing Liverpool will go if we tell them just to have fun out there? Modern managers utilize specific tactical instructions and drill their players round the clock so they know their role inside and out because it's effective. 

It's this kind of lazy mentality that lumps uneducated and unjust criticism on players and coaches for their performances when they haven't got a clue on what the hell is going on out there. You'd think a forum dedicated to a club would be a little more interested with what is actually happening on the field 

 

 

[moore_94]

Need a big bully striker, someone to get on the end of crosses and not be easily pushed off the ball or out the way like Iheanacho was yesterday, could've been Slimani but clearly Puel wasn't a fan

[davieG]

1 hour ago, l444ry said:

In fairness davieG, the clipboard can be useful for showing clearly the role of that player when defending or attacking at corners etc.

....and they can't do that without a clipboard or folder full of diagrams?

[Plastik Man]

2 hours ago, davieG said:

Too much emphasis put on tactics all these guys with their clipboards spewing out endless waffle when sub a player half of which are not even listening.

Bring back the days when it was just the manager and one assistant telling the players in simple words to go out and enjoy the game, close so and down etc.

Jumpers for goalposts! ?

[davieG]

43 minutes ago, Detroit Blues said:

Like it or not, tactics play a huge part in winning and losing. Unfortunately, it seems like the vast majority of people here are blissfully ignorant as to what our coaches are trying to do, and they wax nostalgic about better times when our team was shit and we hoofed cross after cross in the box for someone who is lucky enough to get a head onto it.

Never mind that it's 2018 and the premier league has all the best managers in the world. Do you really think Klopp is just going to send out his team and give them some nice words of encouragement? How do you think playing Liverpool will go if we tell them just to have fun out there? Modern managers utilize specific tactical instructions and drill their players round the clock so they know their role inside and out because it's effective. 

It's this kind of lazy mentality that lumps uneducated and unjust criticism on players and coaches for their performances when they haven't got a clue on what the hell is going on out there. You'd think a forum dedicated to a club would be a little more interested with what is actually happening on the field 

 

 

I'm guessing that was aimed at me, most of what you're talking about can be done before the players set foot on the pitch if they still need a folder full of graphics to explain it then it seems to me they've totally failed in their pre-match analysis some of the stuff you see them describing looks extremely complicated I just don't see players should need that oh and it's rarely the manager talking to these players. It just seems like over kill.

Anyway i've said my piece if people have a different view fair enough.

[StriderHiryu]

15 minutes ago, davieG said:

....and they can't do that without a clipboard or folder full of diagrams?

There's more than one professional player that has openly admitted that when a coach is telling them what to do and where to stand just before coming on with the charts and diagrams that they completely ignore it! The adrenaline is hitting them hard and they just want to get out and play can't process instructions at that precise moment in time. So that line of thinking is quite understandable. But given how many goals are scored from set pieces, telling your sub who they need to mark does seem like important information to pass onto your player. How many times has a team made a sub just before a corner and then conceded? Too many to list. And making the right subs and tactical changed at the right time can also win you a game if done right.

Football has evolved way beyond the point of just telling players to go out and enjoy themselves (though this is still important). Of all the teams in Premier League history Leicester City are probably the number one example of this. When we won the title, we used Tactics that perfectly complimented the strengths or our team, minimised our weaknesses and won us the bloomin' Premier League!

Ranieri and the coaching team drilled into our team:

- To play a really narrow and compact 4-4-2 when defending which forced other teams wide, so that when they crossed it Morgan and Huth could deal with it easily. So they were never challenged for pace, but on aerial ability where they both are immense. Eliminates our weakness and plays to our strengths.

- On corners we left Vardy and Mahrez up top. It was a risk defensively (which early in the season resulted in conceding too many goals from set pieces) but once nailed meant that when the other team had a corner, if anything we were the more dangerous team! Kasper was instructed to play it long immediately as were our defenders and Danny Drinkwater. This allowed us to exploit our raw pace on the break and finishing ability of Vardy and Mahrez. (Note that these were the two that stayed up front and not Albrighton or Okazaki).

- We deliberately ceded possession to trick teams into pushing up so that once we countered there was space in behind for our front 4 ("the RAF Blue arrows" as Ranieri called them) to run into. With Kante and Drinkwater, Kante won so much and 90% of the time his first ball was to Drinkwater who put in the quarterback style pass to Mahrez or Vardy. Again playing to our strengths (ability to absorb pressure and win the ball back, playing around our mediocre passing ability and allowing us to hurt teams with our pace). It was a very Italian style, but blended with the tough tackling and hard working approach you expect from a Premier League team.

There's plenty more examples, but the point is that in that season man for man we did not have the best set of players. We weren't even close. But by having very specific instructions (aka Tactics) that played to our strengths, we were the best TEAM and as a team we punched so far above our weight that we delivered the ultimate knockout blow. And we completely deserved it as well ! Tactics were not the only reason for our success but they sure contributed a lot.

Since then the league adapted to our way of playing and we lost key personnel (Kante mainly) and we've had to change our style of play, which is a huge work in progress project. But the point of this thread wasn't to come across as a know-it-all, but to hopefully provide some sort of guide and discussion area where we can talk about what we are trying to do and if it's any good or not. It may well transpire that we can't play a fluid passing style 4-2-3-1 and Puel or another manager changes it, but this thread at least has some reference as to what style of play we are trying to achieve.

I appreciate how boring it can come across, but hey that's why it's good to have a specific section to talk about it.

[davieG]

3 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

There's more than one professional player that has openly admitted that when a coach is telling them what to do and where to stand just before coming on with the charts and diagrams that they completely ignore it! The adrenaline is hitting them hard and they just want to get out and play can't process instructions at that precise moment in time. So that line of thinking is quite understandable. But given how many goals are scored from set pieces, telling your sub who they need to mark does seem like important information to pass onto your player. How many times has a team made a sub just before a corner and then conceded? Too many to list. And making the right subs and tactical changed at the right time can also win you a game if done right.

Football has evolved way beyond the point of just telling players to go out and enjoy themselves (though this is still important). Of all the teams in Premier League history Leicester City are probably the number one example of this. When we won the title, we used Tactics that perfectly complimented the strengths or our team, minimised our weaknesses and won us the bloomin' Premier League!

Ranieri and the coaching team drilled into our team:

- To play a really narrow and compact 4-4-2 when defending which forced other teams wide, so that when they crossed it Morgan and Huth could deal with it easily. So they were never challenged for pace, but on aerial ability where they both are immense. Eliminates our weakness and plays to our strengths.

- On corners we left Vardy and Mahrez up top. It was a risk defensively (which early in the season resulted in conceding too many goals from set pieces) but once nailed meant that when the other team had a corner, if anything we were the more dangerous team! Kasper was instructed to play it long immediately as were our defenders and Danny Drinkwater. This allowed us to exploit our raw pace on the break and finishing ability of Vardy and Mahrez. (Note that these were the two that stayed up front and not Albrighton or Okazaki).

- We deliberately ceded possession to trick teams into pushing up so that once we countered there was space in behind for our front 4 ("the RAF Blue arrows" as Ranieri called them) to run into. With Kante and Drinkwater, Kante won so much and 90% of the time his first ball was to Drinkwater who put in the quarterback style pass to Mahrez or Vardy. Again playing to our strengths (ability to absorb pressure and win the ball back, playing around our mediocre passing ability and allowing us to hurt teams with our pace). It was a very Italian style, but blended with the tough tackling and hard working approach you expect from a Premier League team.

There's plenty more examples, but the point is that in that season man for man we did not have the best set of players. We weren't even close. But by having very specific instructions (aka Tactics) that played to our strengths, we were the best TEAM and as a team we punched so far above our weight that we delivered the ultimate knockout blow. And we completely deserved it as well ! Tactics were not the only reason for our success but they sure contributed a lot.

Since then the league adapted to our way of playing and we lost key personnel (Kante mainly) and we've had to change our style of play, which is a huge work in progress project. But the point of this thread wasn't to come across as a know-it-all, but to hopefully provide some sort of guide and discussion area where we can talk about what we are trying to do and if it's any good or not. It may well transpire that we can't play a fluid passing style 4-2-3-1 and Puel or another manager changes it, but this thread at least has some reference as to what style of play we are trying to achieve.

I appreciate how boring it can come across, but hey that's why it's good to have a specific section to talk about it.

I'm not saying tactics aren't needed just making the point re subs and bombarding them with graphics etc as you said in your first sentence and I said in my original post they mostly aren't listening a few words giving some specifics is going to have much more impact.

As for the go out and enjoy yourself that was a general thing I also added and close so and so down etc the point I was making was focus on a few specifics verbally not showing them pages of graphics it's surely too late for that.

[st albans fox]

26 minutes ago, davieG said:

I'm not saying tactics aren't needed just making the point re subs and bombarding them with graphics etc as you said in your first sentence and I said in my original post they mostly aren't listening a few words giving some specifics is going to have much more impact.

As for the go out and enjoy yourself that was a general thing I also added and close so and so down etc the point I was making was focus on a few specifics verbally not showing them pages of graphics it's surely too late for that.

it’s not like Sunday league where you turn up 45mins before kick off and the manager makes some general ‘up and at em’ statements .....  they work on the tactics for days before a match - the stuff pre match is just reminding them of the stuff they have been doing leading up to the weekend. The graphics shown to the subs will be existing patterns relating to the opposition and the state of the game - this wouldn’t be the first time they had seen them.

 

[the fox]

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Edited 27 August 2018 by the fox