Alf Bentley Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 40 minutes ago, MattP said: BTW @Alf Bentley Can remember another situation in your lifetime where a government has proceeded with such an important vote it is going to lose? (Predicted numbers appear to anywhere between 50 and 150) I'm still racking my brains on why they are, are they hoping to get close then bring it forward again with amendments? It doesn't really make any sense. Nope, can't think of any. Vaguely recall the odd heavy govt defeat, but not over important issues. Cameron lost over the important issue of military action in Syria, but only fairly narrowly. Off the top of my head, I can only think of 2 explanations for proceeding: - In the expectation of sparking a controlled crisis (pound, markets, public anxiety), then coming back with the same deal plus some sort of sweetener - May wants the EU to see her doing the absolute maximum for the deal so that she can use the expected defeat to try to get further concessions, thinking they're bluffing over this being "the final offer" I suppose there are other possibilities: she might be ready to accept No Deal, an election or a referendum, to cut a deal with Labour or someone else or to quit as PM, but those all seem very unlikely. I do presume that she has a Plan B for if/when she loses the vote. Otherwise, there must be a likelihood that there'll be a Tory leadership challenge, if not a successful confidence vote.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 48 minutes ago, Buce said: So, at least we now know why May so desperately didn't want to publish the legal advice: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46451970 Brexit: Release of full legal advice sparks political row I'm proper confused, isn't this exactly why people hated this deal in the first place? We were told as much before the agreement was even officially released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 11 minutes ago, Innovindil said: I'm proper confused, isn't this exactly why people hated this deal in the first place? We were told as much before the agreement was even officially released. heard political guy on the radio saying that yes, in essence it's saying the same things we knew were bad about the deal already but it's saying it in a much starker manner, not fluffing it up - really showing it up to be the total piece of shit that it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 5 December 2018 Author Share Posted 5 December 2018 42 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Nope, can't think of any. Vaguely recall the odd heavy govt defeat, but not over important issues. Cameron lost over the important issue of military action in Syria, but only fairly narrowly. Off the top of my head, I can only think of 2 explanations for proceeding: - In the expectation of sparking a controlled crisis (pound, markets, public anxiety), then coming back with the same deal plus some sort of sweetener - May wants the EU to see her doing the absolute maximum for the deal so that she can use the expected defeat to try to get further concessions, thinking they're bluffing over this being "the final offer" I suppose there are other possibilities: she might be ready to accept No Deal, an election or a referendum, to cut a deal with Labour or someone else or to quit as PM, but those all seem very unlikely. I do presume that she has a Plan B for if/when she loses the vote. Otherwise, there must be a likelihood that there'll be a Tory leadership challenge, if not a successful confidence vote.... I read somewhere today that Westminster insiders think she’s planning to resign after losing the vote. I’ll post a link if I can remember where I saw it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 3 minutes ago, Buce said: I read somewhere today that Westminster insiders think she’s planning to resign after losing the vote. I’ll post a link if I can remember where I saw it. Surprising, if true. Whatever else I might think of May, she always seems to have a strong sense of duty (as she perceives it) - and she'd be truly leaving her party and her country in the crap if she quit at such a moment.... Unless she thinks some other Tory leader can achieve something that she cannot - but I can't imagine what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 34 minutes ago, Buce said: I read somewhere today that Westminster insiders think she’s planning to resign after losing the vote. I’ll post a link if I can remember where I saw it. I'd be surprised but everyone has a breaking point - I can't imagine the relief she'll feel when she finally gets rid of this. Everytime she hears Boris or Corbyn stand up and tell her exactly how she should have done it I'm sure she wants to scream "you take it then" deep down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 7 minutes ago, MattP said: I'd be surprised but everyone has a breaking point - I can't imagine the relief she'll feel when she finally gets rid of this. Everytime she hears Boris or Corbyn stand up and tell her exactly how she should have done it I'm sure she wants to scream "you take it then" deep down. I'd imagine that May and Corbyn don't care much about criticism from one another, so long as it doesn't damage their reputations. I doubt they have much respect for one another. But criticism from opponents is part of the game. Criticism from your own side usually causes more anger, so I'd love to hear Theresa's private opinions of Boris. I remember Major describing Tory Eurosceptic rebels as "bastards" and reading that Brown got in rages and threw things around the room when he was Chancellor and Blair was PM. You'd have to develop a thick skin to hold a senior job in politics or you wouldn't survive, but easy to forget they're still humans enduring an awful lot of stress....and there can't have been many under more stress than May is now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post lifted*fox Posted 5 December 2018 Popular Post Share Posted 5 December 2018 (edited) i cannot and will not give May any credit, at all - ever. blinkers on and being stubborn shouldn't win you any awards if the end results are as dog-shit as they are. she created a hostile atmosphere as home sec and has done a terrible job as PM. she has no humility, doesn't understand other human beings, has zero warmth (Grenfell), etc. she's a terrible judge of character and has surrounded herself with incapable idiots for the last two years which hasn't helped her cause at all. she has allowed dickheads like JRM and Boris to walk all over her from day one with total inability to put any of them in their place properly. she lies through her teeth day in, day out and seems completely oblivious to the severe poverty her government has allowed to spiral under her watch. she has verbally insulted our long-term friends, family, neighbours and contributors from the EU. she has continued to allow arms sales to Saudi despite their use on civilians (probably for her husband's benefit) and she let Russia use chemical weapons in our country without so much as a stern word in Putin's direction. yes she picked up a hot turd in brexit but all she has done is roll it about in her hands for the last two years. a truly shit person who deserves to be painted as such for the rest of forever. Edited 5 December 2018 by lifted*fox had to add more things. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryfox Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 4 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: i cannot and will not give May any credit, at all - ever. blinkers on and being stubborn shouldn't win you any awards if the end results are as dog-shit as they are. she created a hostile atmosphere as home sec and has done a terrible job as PM. she has no humility, doesn't understand other human beings, has zero warmth, etc. she's a terrible judge of character and has surrounded herself with incapable idiots for the last two years which hasn't helped her cause at all. she has allowed dickheads like JRM and Boris walk all over her from day one with total inability to put any of them in their place properly. she lies through her teeth day in, day out and seems completely oblivious to the severe poverty her government has allowed to spiral under her watch. yes she picked up a hot turd in brexit but all she has done is roll it about in her hands for the last two years. she has continued to allow arms sales to Saudi despite their use on civilians (probably for her husband's benefit) and she let Russia use chemical weapons in our country without so much as a stern word in Putin's direction. a truly shit person who deserves to be painted as such for the rest of forever. Stop sitting on the fence .. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 4 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: yes she picked up a hot turd in brexit but all she has done is roll it about in her hands for the last two years. A few classic images appearing on FT today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 apart from those few bits she's alright, like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 33 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: i cannot and will not give May any credit, at all - ever. blinkers on and being stubborn shouldn't win you any awards if the end results are as dog-shit as they are. she created a hostile atmosphere as home sec and has done a terrible job as PM. she has no humility, doesn't understand other human beings, has zero warmth (Grenfell), etc. she's a terrible judge of character and has surrounded herself with incapable idiots for the last two years which hasn't helped her cause at all. she has allowed dickheads like JRM and Boris to walk all over her from day one with total inability to put any of them in their place properly. she lies through her teeth day in, day out and seems completely oblivious to the severe poverty her government has allowed to spiral under her watch. she has verbally insulted our long-term friends, family, neighbours and contributors from the EU. she has continued to allow arms sales to Saudi despite their use on civilians (probably for her husband's benefit) and she let Russia use chemical weapons in our country without so much as a stern word in Putin's direction. yes she picked up a hot turd in brexit but all she has done is roll it about in her hands for the last two years. a truly shit person who deserves to be painted as such for the rest of forever. Someone fancies Theresa ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 36 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: i cannot and will not give May any credit, at all - ever. blinkers on and being stubborn shouldn't win you any awards if the end results are as dog-shit as they are. she created a hostile atmosphere as home sec and has done a terrible job as PM. she has no humility, doesn't understand other human beings, has zero warmth (Grenfell), etc. she's a terrible judge of character and has surrounded herself with incapable idiots for the last two years which hasn't helped her cause at all. she has allowed dickheads like JRM and Boris to walk all over her from day one with total inability to put any of them in their place properly. she lies through her teeth day in, day out and seems completely oblivious to the severe poverty her government has allowed to spiral under her watch. she has verbally insulted our long-term friends, family, neighbours and contributors from the EU. she has continued to allow arms sales to Saudi despite their use on civilians (probably for her husband's benefit) and she let Russia use chemical weapons in our country without so much as a stern word in Putin's direction. yes she picked up a hot turd in brexit but all she has done is roll it about in her hands for the last two years. a truly shit person who deserves to be painted as such for the rest of forever. You have such a beautiful way with words 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 5 December 2018 Author Share Posted 5 December 2018 5 minutes ago, Strokes said: You have such a beautiful way with words My personal favourite was accusing MattP of rolling a turd in glitter. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 1 minute ago, Buce said: My personal favourite was accusing MattP of rolling a turd in glitter. love a good poo rolling accusation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 5 December 2018 Share Posted 5 December 2018 1 minute ago, Buce said: My personal favourite was accusing MattP of rolling a turd in glitter. There has been too many to mention, even when I’m on the receiving end I usually end up laughing 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellend Sebastian Posted 6 December 2018 Share Posted 6 December 2018 Still some way to go, isn't there? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/06/quarter-of-adults-think-marital-sex-without-consent-is-not-uk-survey-finds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 6 December 2018 Author Share Posted 6 December 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said: Still some way to go, isn't there? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/06/quarter-of-adults-think-marital-sex-without-consent-is-not-uk-survey-finds You’ll note it’s again mainly the older generation. The same generation who voted to leave the EU, opposed gay marriage, supports capital punishment, and keeps the Tories in power. They don’t like change and oppose anything that’s socially progressive. Edited 6 December 2018 by Buce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 6 December 2018 Share Posted 6 December 2018 26 minutes ago, Buce said: You’ll note it’s again mainly the older generation. The same generation who voted to leave the EU, opposed gay marriage, supports capital punishment, and keeps the Tories in power. They don’t like change and oppose anything that’s socially progressive. I think it's inevitable that there'll be a lag, with a higher percentage of older people sticking with attitudes learned when young. Happens to almost all of us, to varying extents. Plus, legally marital rape wasn't viewed as rape until 1991, when the older generation was already middle-aged. Though most of the stats were depressing, I found some of the ones about attitudes among young people and women more shocking: - 16% of those aged 16-24 thinking non-consensual sex with a wife/partner wasn't rape (33%+ for over-65s) - 21% of women thinking that non-consensual sex wasn't rape if the women had flirted on a date (33% for men) - 23% of women thinking that they couldn't change their minds once sex had started (33%+ for men) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 6 December 2018 Share Posted 6 December 2018 16 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: I think it's inevitable that there'll be a lag, with a higher percentage of older people sticking with attitudes learned when young. Happens to almost all of us, to varying extents. Plus, legally marital rape wasn't viewed as rape until 1991, when the older generation was already middle-aged. Though most of the stats were depressing, I found some of the ones about attitudes among young people and women more shocking: - 16% of those aged 16-24 thinking non-consensual sex with a wife/partner wasn't rape (33%+ for over-65s) - 21% of women thinking that non-consensual sex wasn't rape if the women had flirted on a date (33% for men) - 23% of women thinking that they couldn't change their minds once sex had started (33%+ for men) Why would it be shocking? This stuff is practically hand-me-down knowledge, if the older folks don't know the law, the younger people won't. It's exactly why we need to be having life lessons in schools, we can't rely on parents teaching their kids these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 6 December 2018 Share Posted 6 December 2018 1 minute ago, Innovindil said: Why would it be shocking? This stuff is practically hand-me-down knowledge, if the older folks don't know the law, the younger people won't. It's exactly why we need to be having life lessons in schools, we can't rely on parents teaching their kids these things. Because young people have plenty of sources other than their elders telling them this isn't OK: mainstream media, social media, campaigns, schools etc. Admittedly, they can also have other sources telling them it IS OK: e.g. I know that macho attitudes to girlfriends as "property" exist among some groups of young men. Plus, just based on experience of personal conversations, I wouldn't have expected as many as 1 in 5 women and young people to hold such attitudes. I agree with your second point - if that's not already happening. I know they have Citizenship lessons and similar in schools, but am not sure what exactly these cover. I'll ask my daughter later, if I think of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 6 December 2018 Share Posted 6 December 2018 (edited) Ah so we're posting here eh? I came to look at the politics thread. I've not been really there for about a year I think. Nasty stuff. I think this quote summed it up: Quote This sounds like something from /r/donald. Rubbish everyone and hope it deflects the truth Crazy that there are more balanced posts about Puel, Gray and Diabate than about modern British politics these days. Something that appears to be the case in many other places though. A time of fear, resentment and anger. Edited 6 December 2018 by Foxxed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 6 December 2018 Share Posted 6 December 2018 15 hours ago, lifted*fox said: i cannot and will not give May any credit, at all - ever. blinkers on and being stubborn shouldn't win you any awards if the end results are as dog-shit as they are. she created a hostile atmosphere as home sec and has done a terrible job as PM. she has no humility, doesn't understand other human beings, has zero warmth (Grenfell), etc. she's a terrible judge of character and has surrounded herself with incapable idiots for the last two years which hasn't helped her cause at all. she has allowed dickheads like JRM and Boris to walk all over her from day one with total inability to put any of them in their place properly. she lies through her teeth day in, day out and seems completely oblivious to the severe poverty her government has allowed to spiral under her watch. she has verbally insulted our long-term friends, family, neighbours and contributors from the EU. she has continued to allow arms sales to Saudi despite their use on civilians (probably for her husband's benefit) and she let Russia use chemical weapons in our country without so much as a stern word in Putin's direction. yes she picked up a hot turd in brexit but all she has done is roll it about in her hands for the last two years. a truly shit person who deserves to be painted as such for the rest of forever. There's also swallown, bloated bodies of men, women and children lying on the bottom of the Mediterranean because of decision as Home Secretary. She decided that the migrants would stop coming if we stop trying to save them from drowning. Thought I'd mention it because you seem to be equivocating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 6 December 2018 Share Posted 6 December 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Foxxed said: There's also swallown, bloated bodies of men, women and children lying on the bottom of the Mediterranean because of decision as Home Secretary. She decided that the migrants would stop coming if we stop trying to save them from drowning. Thought I'd mention it because you seem to be equivocating. That's simplistic to say the least - the bodies are in the ocean for many reasons; Obama, Cameron and Sarkozy's intervention into Libya being the first , but mainly they are there because of the gangmasters in Libya who put them into boats with so little fuel they knew they would need to be rescued and we would do it The actual policy should rescue and return - allowing people into Europe this way has caused many more to make the journey, many more to die trying and has caused no end of social problems in the poorest countries on the continent in the South. I can't think of any other policy where we have played into the hands of the most evil criminal gangs more than this one. Edited 6 December 2018 by MattP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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