Good article in the Times re. Tactics

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, GingerrrFox said:

The part about being brave enough to play Tielemans instead of Ndidi or Mendy, is the be all and end all to the rest of our season. 

It is likely to be the difference between Puel parting ways with us or surviving another summer to continue his development of us. I hope he loses some of his stubbornness and goes for it, his recent inclusion of Barnes and Choudhury at times suggests he's happy to switch his thinking.

[sdb]

Good article. Our attacking midfields/wingers get off lightly though. They’re just not prolific enough at all. I dread to think what we’d be like without Chillwell and Ricardo. 

[Dames]

Very good article and highlights many of the flaws in the current system. 

 

Puel has to drop one of either Mendy or Ndidi for Tielemans as it is vital for this team to progress, if he shoehorns in Tielemans in the Maddison role shunting Maddison out to the left he’ll lose any credibility he has left as a manager at this club.

 

The worst thing is I can see this happening as Puel has done little to show that he is willing to depart from his safety first approach. 

[Keiriel]

There's nothing tactically wrong with playing 2 CDMs, but when both are cautious to a fault and slow to release the ball, there's something wrong. Puel is beyond stubborn in addressing this particular issue, despite hearing him scream from the touchline for his players to move the ball forward quicker.

[smudgerfox]

Good article - but I'm not sure it really is that simple. Both our full backs do bomb on - which leaves us vulnerable to the counter attack ourselves. The only way to address that vulnerability is to have two "sitting" midfielders...playing wing backs with a four man defence is a calculated risk....

[Deeg67]

4 hours ago, NotTheMarketLeader said:

‘Good delivery’ from Chilwell 

?

Good crosses from open play and good delivery on set pieces are different metrics.  Chillwell hasn't had a ton of free kicks thanks to Maddison's presence, but he's become very good at delivery from them.  His crossing is a work in progress, but it's improved pretty significantly too.  He's no Fuchs or Albrighton but he's also a lot younger and less experienced than they are.

[Dan]

Chilwell's creativity I think is more speculating to accumulate. He's not got great end product but does have loads of goes so he's bound to get a decent-ish number regardless.

[KingsX]

15 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

It is likely to be the difference between Puel parting ways with us or surviving another summer to continue his development of us. I hope he loses some of his stubbornness and goes for it, his recent inclusion of Barnes and Choudhury at times suggests he's happy to switch his thinking.

 

The narrative about Puel on here is frozen in amber -- he is clueless, he has bad intentions, he wants to play sideways for one shot in 90 ‘. 

 

No.  I am sure he knows the problem very well.  It just is not within his comfort zone to solve it.  But it looks like he knows time is running out. 

 

Against a ManU who had won eight of nine, he picked an attacker-heavy XI, then subbed his remaining attackers on.  The ball was in their end for a comfortable majority of the game.  Puel’s animation on the touchline?  A man who can no longer contain himself about his inability to get the message across, or his squad’s inability to execute it.  And may be ready to throw the kitchen sink at the problem, all else having failed.

 

That second half was blue guys advancing, probing the flanks.  Red guys back, looking for a counter with their 50% of the ball.  How many times in recorded history has LCFC v MUFC looked like that?  Coming from Claude ****ing Puel, people think this was a negligible statement?!  Looked more like the gloves coming off to me.

 

With Barnes and Tielemans available, I think this gets more interesting, starting at Spurs.  Claude Puel will not go down playing a midfield two of Ndidi and Mendy.

[murphy]

16 hours ago, Keiriel said:

There's nothing tactically wrong with playing 2 CDMs, but when both are cautious to a fault and slow to release the ball, there's something wrong. Puel is beyond stubborn in addressing this particular issue, despite hearing him scream from the touchline for his players to move the ball forward quicker.

Have you been living in a cupboard under the stairs?  He literally just addressed it.

 

[Keiriel]

52 minutes ago, murphy said:

Have you been living in a cupboard under the stairs?  He literally just addressed it.

 

Is there any need for the snark? Really? I see Claude doing a lot of things right, but persisting with Mendy and Ndidi is one area that I've found him to be stubborn. With Tielemans coming in, yes, I'm hoping it'll change. Regarding the overall issue with the team not playing at the tempo that he wants, I've seen him address that several times.

[murphy]

1 hour ago, Keiriel said:

Is there any need for the snark? Really? I see Claude doing a lot of things right, but persisting with Mendy and Ndidi is one area that I've found him to be stubborn. With Tielemans coming in, yes, I'm hoping it'll change. Regarding the overall issue with the team not playing at the tempo that he wants, I've seen him address that several times.

Maybe not, but I am sick of the unfair criticism with Puel.  That is not to say we can't criticise, but it is getting ridiculous on this forum.

 

Your comment that he stubbornly refuses to address the lack of creativity in midfield, less than a week after signing one of the most highly rated young midfielders in Europe falls squarely into that unfair category.  Remember he can't sign anyone from September to January, his hands are tied.  Hardly stubbornness.  I think we have given Silva and Iborra that chance for the first half of the season but they haven't stepped up.

 

It was a daft comment in that context and deserved to be slapped down.

[Keiriel]

2 minutes ago, murphy said:

Maybe not, but I am sick of the unfair criticism with Puel.  That is not to say we can't criticise, but it is getting ridiculous on this forum.

 

Your comment that he stubbornly refuses to address the lack of creativity in midfield, less than a week after signing one of the most highly rated young midfielders in Europe falls squarely into that unfair category.  Remember he can't sign anyone from September to January, his hands are tied.  Hardly stubbornness.  I think we have given Silva and Iborra that chance for the first half of the season but they haven't stepped up.

 

It was a daft comment in that context and deserved to be slapped down.

I've been supportive of Puel, so I ask that you don't get the wrong idea. My frustration lies less with him and more with the situation. I know he leans towards pragmatism and can only work with what's available, but that doesn't make it any less frustrating, you know? I do agree that the level of criticism has hit ridiculous levels on this forum, though. As for Silva and Iborra, yeah, you're probably right. If either of them had stepped up in training or cup games, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Let's hope that Tielemans provides the spark we need.

[reynard]

57 minutes ago, murphy said:

Maybe not, but I am sick of the unfair criticism with Puel.  That is not to say we can't criticise, but it is getting ridiculous on this forum.

 

Your comment that he stubbornly refuses to address the lack of creativity in midfield, less than a week after signing one of the most highly rated young midfielders in Europe falls squarely into that unfair category.  Remember he can't sign anyone from September to January, his hands are tied.  Hardly stubbornness.  I think we have given Silva and Iborra that chance for the first half of the season but they haven't stepped up.

 

It was a daft comment in that context and deserved to be slapped down.

He's had all season and most of last to address the issue of how slowly we move the ball and hasn't done it. As a manager he has to work with what he has and there is a perfectly sound argument that he has failed to capitalise on what players were available. The signing of one player may or may not solve the issue but up until today Puel has shown little sign of being able to get the players to play the way he supposedly wants them to, ie move the ball quicker, to play with more intensity etc etc. Ok so maybe the players simply can't do it. Then it is up to the manager to coach them and improve them and he simply doesn't seem able to do that. Indeed several players could be said to have regressed this season.He needs to have a plan B but we don't really seem to have one do we?

I don't know if he's stubborn or has actually reached the limits of his ability but the same faults are being repeated game after game. I'm not only talking about the slow sideways passing and lack of pace in the transition phase, or the repeated poor starts to almost every game but also things like the paucity of our set pieces and the woeful lack of movement. Things that should be worked on and improved on the training ground but I'm not seeing it.

Obviously he's tightened up the defence and can't be blamed for individual errors. I look back at the first few games under his stewardship with a great deal of pleasure and admiration. The football was dynamic and entertaining. I don't think we've imporved a whole lot in the meantime and we're certainly not usually as entertaining though there are moments to appreciate.

I'm happy to let him have the rest of the season and see where we are at the end, that is only fair. But at the end the question will need to be addressed as to whether the season has been an improvement on the last or not.

[cal21212121]

21 hours ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

13th for chances created. 5th fewest goals conceded. Ndidi and Mendy not playing forward passes.

 

Therein lies the problem. Puel shackles us with too many defensive players and a safety-first approach.

 

It’s football to not lose first and it’s awful to watch. The only time it hasn’t been has been when we’ve been playing in a style he was brought in to ‘transition’ us from.

 

I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would want another season of this.

I completely agree, especially when for all of Puel's focus on defending we still concede in the first 10 mins every sodding game

[Foxesmints]

22 hours ago, NotTheMarketLeader said:

‘Good delivery’ from Chilwell 

?

Yes, good delivery from Chilwell!

 

Why don't you just **** off and take your negativity elsewhere?.

[HoustonFox]

Really good article - one thing I didn't quite agree with is the part where they say the CDMs have been given instructions to only play safe - it's clearly more a confidence / ability thing - you can see CP jumping and waving (and probably hear him screaming if close enough) for them to play it sooner - those pictures of Vardy and Gray with their arms out with Mendy on the ball tells the story... 

 

I didn't know that Mendy was 7th in the league for interceptions, but I think he's the one up for the chop.  Wilf can hold more (check out his average positions in the Chelsea and Man City graphics) but is having to be more attacking with Mendy, despite, IMHO, being the better CDM.  Tielmans in at CM, Wilf dropping a little and focusing on winning and recycling, and the same front 5 and hopefully we'll more attacking a lot more quickly...

[murphy]

2 hours ago, reynard said:

He's had all season and most of last to address the issue of how slowly we move the ball and hasn't done it. As a manager he has to work with what he has and there is a perfectly sound argument that he has failed to capitalise on what players were available. The signing of one player may or may not solve the issue but up until today Puel has shown little sign of being able to get the players to play the way he supposedly wants them to, ie move the ball quicker, to play with more intensity etc etc. Ok so maybe the players simply can't do it. Then it is up to the manager to coach them and improve them and he simply doesn't seem able to do that. Indeed several players could be said to have regressed this season.He needs to have a plan B but we don't really seem to have one do we?

I don't know if he's stubborn or has actually reached the limits of his ability but the same faults are being repeated game after game. I'm not only talking about the slow sideways passing and lack of pace in the transition phase, or the repeated poor starts to almost every game but also things like the paucity of our set pieces and the woeful lack of movement. Things that should be worked on and improved on the training ground but I'm not seeing it.

Obviously he's tightened up the defence and can't be blamed for individual errors. I look back at the first few games under his stewardship with a great deal of pleasure and admiration. The football was dynamic and entertaining. I don't think we've imporved a whole lot in the meantime and we're certainly not usually as entertaining though there are moments to appreciate.

I'm happy to let him have the rest of the season and see where we are at the end, that is only fair. But at the end the question will need to be addressed as to whether the season has been an improvement on the last or not.

 

 He has had a lot of issues to address:

 

Full backs - tick

Number 10 = tick

Centre halves - tick.

Centre-Mid - Now Tielemans.  

 

Do you expect him to buy a full team in one or two windows?  As I said before, perhaps he wanted to give Iborra and Silva an opportunity this season.  Perhaps he prioritised those other positions first.

 

I think he is doing an excellent job with the players bought in but you seem to want Rome built yesterday.  Unrealistic again.  Unfair again and once again, no credit given for the achievements that he has made.

 

Getting back to the article, it confirms in more detail what many of us including yourself have been saying, that is that we need to get the ball upfield more quickly.  We know that and we can't just 'coach' it into N'Didi and Mendy any more than we could coach it into Wes.  It's not their game.  When that piece of the jigsaw is added it could/should make the world of difference to us.  

[HoustonFox]

7 hours ago, KingsX said:

 

The narrative about Puel on here is frozen in amber -- he is clueless, he has bad intentions, he wants to play sideways for one shot in 90 ‘. 

 

No.  I am sure he knows the problem very well.  It just is not within his comfort zone to solve it.  But it looks like he knows time is running out. 

 

Against a ManU who had won eight of nine, he picked an attacker-heavy XI, then subbed his remaining attackers on.  The ball was in their end for a comfortable majority of the game.  Puel’s animation on the touchline?  A man who can no longer contain himself about his inability to get the message across, or his squad’s inability to execute it.  And may be ready to throw the kitchen sink at the problem, all else having failed.

 

That second half was blue guys advancing, probing the flanks.  Red guys back, looking for a counter with their 50% of the ball.  How many times in recorded history has LCFC v MUFC looked like that?  Coming from Claude ****ing Puel, people think this was a negligible statement?!  Looked more like the gloves coming off to me.

 

With Barnes and Tielemans available, I think this gets more interesting, starting at Spurs.  Claude Puel will not go down playing a midfield two of Ndidi and Mendy.

Totally agree with you - one question: if he goes down swinging, and it works, does he stay?  I think yes, and hopefully the fans will start to back him more and more.  He clearly cares, and I don't think it's a done deal he's gone (his body language suggests otherwise).

[KingsX]

23 minutes ago, HoustonFox said:

Totally agree with you - one question: if he goes down swinging, and it works, does he stay?  I think yes, and hopefully the fans will start to back him more and more.  He clearly cares, and I don't think it's a done deal he's gone (his body language suggests otherwise).

 

If it works, he should stay, but now is the time.  Likely at best he has "most" of the season?  The board should have their shortlist of candidates and will contact agents while balls are still being kicked.

 

Nobody is thrilled with the curve of this season; but I'm optimistic it is not over.  Some of these young guys have everything to play for.  Barnes and Tielemans are new blades that can actually cut.  And our manager must realize it's time to go all-in. 

 

It does feel like an endgame either way.

 

 

[reynard]

14 hours ago, murphy said:

 

 He has had a lot of issues to address:

 

Full backs - tick

Number 10 = tick

Centre halves - tick.

Centre-Mid - Now Tielemans.  

 

Do you expect him to buy a full team in one or two windows?  As I said before, perhaps he wanted to give Iborra and Silva an opportunity this season.  Perhaps he prioritised those other positions first.

 

I think he is doing an excellent job with the players bought in but you seem to want Rome built yesterday.  Unrealistic again.  Unfair again and once again, no credit given for the achievements that he has made.

 

Getting back to the article, it confirms in more detail what many of us including yourself have been saying, that is that we need to get the ball upfield more quickly.  We know that and we can't just 'coach' it into N'Didi and Mendy any more than we could coach it into Wes.  It's not their game.  When that piece of the jigsaw is added it could/should make the world of difference to us.  

Of course I don't expect him to buy a whole team, come on don't be so patronising.

I do expect any manager to use the resources he has at hand to the best effect and I'm questioning, quite reasonably, whether over the course of his stewardship, that he has has done so.

And as I said I'm quite happy to give him time but at the end of the season we will need to see how he's done. As I've said elsewhere I believe his contract expires at the end of June 2020. I may be wrong so apologies if I am but can we really enter next season with a manager in position who has a contract that expires at the end of the season and no idea if it will be extended? Personally I don't think so.

So he can't coach it into players? Come on that's ridiculous. So that's like saying he couldn't coach Chilwell into better positioning in defence, something I note he is often credited with. If as he say he truly can't then he should be looking at different ways of playing the to utilise their skill sets, that's what good managers do.

Lets' see how we fare over the rest of the season. If we finish in a better position with more points than last season then hats off to the guy he will have done a very good job indeed.

 

He does need to sort out the home form though as that is really below average at best.

Maybe Tielemans will be the answer but he may not be, we are asking a lot of one player. The slow passing isn't just down to Ndidi and Mendy, the whole team suffers from it and it is compounded by a general lack of movement all over the pitch.

 

[huggybear]

On 04/02/2019 at 20:15, mod hero said:

The only trouble was that, having conceded an early goal after a poor pass by Pereira, United could play Leicester at their own game.

^ This. We're not giving ourselves a chance - more focus needed, are we missing a leader?

[murphy]

3 hours ago, reynard said:

Of course I don't expect him to buy a whole team, come on don't be so patronising.

I do expect any manager to use the resources he has at hand to the best effect and I'm questioning, quite reasonably, whether over the course of his stewardship, that he has has done so.

And as I said I'm quite happy to give him time but at the end of the season we will need to see how he's done. As I've said elsewhere I believe his contract expires at the end of June 2020. I may be wrong so apologies if I am but can we really enter next season with a manager in position who has a contract that expires at the end of the season and no idea if it will be extended? Personally I don't think so.

So he can't coach it into players? Come on that's ridiculous. So that's like saying he couldn't coach Chilwell into better positioning in defence, something I note he is often credited with. If as he say he truly can't then he should be looking at different ways of playing the to utilise their skill sets, that's what good managers do.

Lets' see how we fare over the rest of the season. If we finish in a better position with more points than last season then hats off to the guy he will have done a very good job indeed.

 

He does need to sort out the home form though as that is really below average at best.

Maybe Tielemans will be the answer but he may not be, we are asking a lot of one player. The slow passing isn't just down to Ndidi and Mendy, the whole team suffers from it and it is compounded by a general lack of movement all over the pitch.

 

 You said that he had not addressed the issue over the course of a year.  In response I listed the areas that had been addressed in that time.  The positions that he as improved and the fact that he can't do it all in a couple of windows.  I don't see why that is patronising.  Maybe it is, I am definitely spikier and even more grumpy than usual after the weekend and that booing.

 

I have to disagree with you regarding coaching.  With our midfielders, Wilf for example has many fine qualities.  He is an athlete and a destroyer.  A ball winner.  Coaching can improve that, much as it can improve Chillwell's defending and positional sense that you mention, although for a youngster I think minutes and experience is a better teacher. 

 

What coaching can't do is turn a player into something they are not.  It's self evident isn't it?  If you can solve all your problems with coaching then why buy new players at all?  You can't coach Wilf or Mendy to become a play-maker type, that's never gonna happen just as you couldn't coach Glenn Hoddle to become Nobby Stiles.  I think that Wilf's problems this year have been caused by him overreaching and trying to add that to his game presumably under instruction.

 

The problem is the midfield as the article points out.  You say that we don't move it quickly enough throughout the team, but all too often we find ourselves in a congested final third against a set defence.  We need to get the ball quickly to the forward three and get behind the opposition and that will come from our midfield not taking the safe sideways pass when there are better but more difficult options.  I think the right player with the right ability can make a huge difference here.

 

 

 

 

 

[Stadt]

It's clear he can't coach players to attack very well, even with much better players we'd probably have the same issues as we just don't see enough movement and that's a coaching issue not a personnel one. Better players masks problems but it relies individual quality trumping opposition and it's not consistent enough. The flip side is that we're probably better defensively than we ever have been aside from 15/16 but I don't even think we're good defensively at the expense of our attack as we vacant a lot of wide space and usually play in a mid block.

[murphy]

40 minutes ago, Stadt said:

It's clear he can't coach players to attack very well, even with much better players we'd probably have the same issues as we just don't see enough movement and that's a coaching issue not a personnel one. Better players masks problems but it relies individual quality trumping opposition and it's not consistent enough. The flip side is that we're probably better defensively than we ever have been aside from 15/16 but I don't even think we're good defensively at the expense of our attack as we vacant a lot of wide space and usually play in a mid block.

I think that it all stems from the same thing.  Too slow in getting the ball up the field resulting in a congested final third, walking pace with the ball, few options and no space to make any runs in to.

[reynard]

3 hours ago, murphy said:

 You said that he had not addressed the issue over the course of a year.  In response I listed the areas that had been addressed in that time.  The positions that he as improved and the fact that he can't do it all in a couple of windows.  I don't see why that is patronising.  Maybe it is, I am definitely spikier and even more grumpy than usual after the weekend and that booing.

 

I have to disagree with you regarding coaching.  With our midfielders, Wilf for example has many fine qualities.  He is an athlete and a destroyer.  A ball winner.  Coaching can improve that, much as it can improve Chillwell's defending and positional sense that you mention, although for a youngster I think minutes and experience is a better teacher. 

 

What coaching can't do is turn a player into something they are not.  It's self evident isn't it?  If you can solve all your problems with coaching then why buy new players at all?  You can't coach Wilf or Mendy to become a play-maker type, that's never gonna happen just as you couldn't coach Glenn Hoddle to become Nobby Stiles.  I think that Wilf's problems this year have been caused by him overreaching and trying to add that to his game presumably under instruction.

 

The problem is the midfield as the article points out.  You say that we don't move it quickly enough throughout the team, but all too often we find ourselves in a congested final third against a set defence.  We need to get the ball quickly to the forward three and get behind the opposition and that will come from our midfield not taking the safe sideways pass when there are better but more difficult options.  I think the right player with the right ability can make a huge difference here.

 

 

 

 

 

Just for interest

2018 Jan 25 games 9 wins 7 draws, 9 defeats 37 goals for 34 against  points 34

 

2019 feb 25 games 9 wins 5 draws 11 defeats 30 goals scored 31 conceded   points 32

 

As a club we've not progressed very far in the stats that matter.

But as I said let's see where we are at the end of the season. You're right he has addressed some issues and must get credit for that but lets' not make out all is rosy.