Captain... Posted 28 May 2019 Posted 28 May 2019 11 hours ago, MattP said: The Conservative party are campaigning on delivering Brexit - to not count them in the pro-Brexit vote share is nonsensical. Why would we have another referendum when there is no mandate for it and why would any leave voter trust politicians to implement the result? Just having another referendum in the hope of people voting Remain so you can reverse it isn't a serious option. I know people like you hope and probably expected that a huge shift would have happened by now but it hasn't and the war on arithmetic and redefining of party positions to try and show it might have is becoming increasingly bizarre. I’m not the one trying to make the case that this election is indicative of a Brexit referendum. It’s not, the conservatives are a centre right party, Labour a centre left party, they have both been around longer than you and me. Regardless of manifesto and pledges there is a brand loyalty there that is hard to break, although the tories have been trying there best. You can say similar about Greens and Lib Dem, but the increase in votes can be attributed to remain stance. The only thing you can say for certain is 100% of Brexit party and UKIP voters is they want Brexit. But that was fewer than 6 million in fact the entire turnout was lower than the number of leave voters in the referendum. A third voted Brexit parties a third voted “remain” parties a third voted for the established parties. It is inconclusive as any indicator for Brexit. Instead of turning this into an ersatz referendum, let’s just have one put the matter to bed. This is not to get Remain, it needs to be a transferable voting system to make sure the people get what the people want and get this done and not have it hijacked by a handful of people.
purpleronnie Posted 28 May 2019 Posted 28 May 2019 10 hours ago, David Guiza said: Alastair Campbell expelled from Labour. Bizarre, labour act immediately to expel him but the anti Semitism still isn't dealt with. As for Campbell does Corbyn really want him as an enemy?
davieG Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 James Cleverly has joined the race to become Conservative Party leader. The Brexit minister is the 11th candidate to confirm they are running, after Theresa May announced she would stand down on 7 June. The winner, expected to be named by late July, will also become prime minister. In an open letter, Mr Cleverly set out his case to become leader and said he had backed Brexit from the beginning. He said: "I have never been blind to the complexities of the process and I have always been uncomfortable with those who offer artificially simple solutions." The MP for Braintree in Essex spoke about the need to unite the party, arguing: "We cannot bring the country back together unless the party of government is united, and the party cannot unite if it is led from its fringes." He also called for change, writing: "To inspire the British people we need to look different, sound different, and offer something new. I believe I can do that."
Alf Bentley Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 13 hours ago, Lionator said: Looks like the Brexit Party is nailed on for the Peterborough by-election which is quite frankly terrifying given that they have no manifesto or policies. How on earth does being in the European Union or not affect local issues? I checked the Euro election result for Peterborough. Brexit Party got at least twice as many votes there as any other party (i.e. better than its average national result). They wouldn't necessarily win the seat in a general election, when other issues are at stake, nature of govt/PM etc. But in a by-election a fortnight after the Euro elections....under FPTP....with the opposition split between about 5 parties......when the outgoing MP was jailed for dishonesty? Pretty nailed on, as you say!
Guest Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 I never heard about this at the time: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-48366835?ocid=global_bbccom_email_28052019_magazine Incredibly poor handling from the university's pov. Shocking but seems to ignore the whole premise of it just being "lad's chat" to be honest it reminds me a little of the Tinder thread when I saw it year's ago. The whole mentality of young males and their excuse of lad's chat or banter is an affront to the female population and any self-respecting male. Was the story big news in the UK at the time? Has it had any effect on Warwick University student demand?
Nick Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 Are the 11 candidates so far all realistic contenders for the job or is it a public and party promotion exercise for some in that if they prove popular and get a percentage of the vote or hang on in the process for a length of time that they get a shift in importance and a cabinet job when one of the top four entitled, rich toffs of the people finally gets the gig and has to give some credence to the power hungry mob beneath them to keep the party members happy? On an aside, I appreciate the above is quite a long sentence. Sorry.
Guest MattP Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 13 hours ago, Lionator said: Looks like the Brexit Party is nailed on for the Peterborough by-election which is quite frankly terrifying given that they have no manifesto or policies. How on earth does being in the European Union or not affect local issues? All due respect, you are looking at this through the eyes of somebody who voted Remain. To understand it you need to put yourself completely into the mindset of somebody who voted Brexit. Many many leave voters now couldn't care less what a manifesto says as it's not worth the paper it is written on. Bigger things are at stake, they are seeing the biggest mandate in British political history being systematically destroyed. When that is happening your average promise on a leaflet from an MP is an ant compared to an elephant. I'm amazed how many people (and from personal experience this is exclusively Remainers, not right or left as I've had the opinion Tories as well) just think this is going to blow over and in a GE all votes just return to the main parties, it's wishful thinking - we are in completely different territory here than we have been. The Brexit party are now only a 6/1 chance to win the most seats at an actual GE and they'll be about joint favourites if we see a reversal of the decision taken to leave - if people genuinely think leavers won't vote them because they don't write a manifesto (which they will anyway) or because they are sharing an NHS quote from Farage from a decade ago they are in the same sort of deluded state the 2017 Tories were on Corbyn.
Buce Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 2 minutes ago, MattP said: All due respect, you are looking at this through the eyes of somebody who voted Remain. To understand it you need to put yourself completely into the mindset of somebody who voted Brexit. Many many leave voters now couldn't care less what a manifesto says as it's not worth the paper it is written on. Bigger things are at stake, they are seeing the biggest mandate in British political history being systematically destroyed. When that is happening your average promise on a leaflet from an MP is an ant compared to an elephant. I'm amazed how many people (and from personal experience this is exclusively Remainers, not right or left as I've had the opinion Tories as well) just think this is going to blow over and in a GE all votes just return to the main parties, it's wishful thinking - we are in completely different territory here than we have been. The Brexit party are now only a 6/1 chance to win the most seats at an actual GE and they'll be about joint favourites if we see a reversal of the decision taken to leave - if people genuinely think leavers won't vote them because they don't write a manifesto (which they will anyway) or because they are sharing an NHS quote from Farage from a decade ago they are in the same sort of deluded state the 2017 Tories were on Corbyn. 1 Of course. Historical quotes only matter if your name is Corbyn.
Guest MattP Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 Just now, Buce said: Of course. Historical quotes only matter if your name is Corbyn. You missed the point I was making completely. The point was people didn't care as they saw Corbyn's policy as more important than his words - exactly the same will happen with the Brexit Party. And you can sure if they win Peterborough it will be the same reaction from the opponents, they'll tot up all the collective votes of the opposition (even pro-Brexit parties if they have too) and convince themselves they actually won. This is now becoming a common theme, Brexit didnt really win it was Russia, Trump didn't really win as Clinton won the popular vote, the Liberals didn't win in Australia last week as only Queensland wanted them. Its always legitimate until the result goes against them. If Corbyn does win the next election on 30% of vote you won't hear a peep and we all know it.
Nick Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 10 minutes ago, MattP said: All due respect, you are looking at this through the eyes of somebody who voted Remain. To understand it you need to put yourself completely into the mindset of somebody who voted Brexit. Many many leave voters now couldn't care less what a manifesto says as it's not worth the paper it is written on. Bigger things are at stake, they are seeing the biggest mandate in British political history being systematically destroyed. When that is happening your average promise on a leaflet from an MP is an ant compared to an elephant. I'm amazed how many people (and from personal experience this is exclusively Remainers, not right or left as I've had the opinion Tories as well) just think this is going to blow over and in a GE all votes just return to the main parties, it's wishful thinking - we are in completely different territory here than we have been. The Brexit party are now only a 6/1 chance to win the most seats at an actual GE and they'll be about joint favourites if we see a reversal of the decision taken to leave - if people genuinely think leavers won't vote them because they don't write a manifesto (which they will anyway) or because they are sharing an NHS quote from Farage from a decade ago they are in the same sort of deluded state the 2017 Tories were on Corbyn. Can you imagine a situation where the ‘right remain’ feel so robbed and disillusioned that they put Farage in for PM in a general election? I mean the thought of Boris or Corbyn are quite frankly as deeply uncomfortable as each other depending which side of the fence you are pitched or sat upon, but Farage as PM is just surely the daftest, most abhorrent, stupid and farcical move for anybody to put an X in any box beyond a protest vote?
David Guiza Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 16 minutes ago, FIF said: I never heard about this at the time: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-48366835?ocid=global_bbccom_email_28052019_magazine Incredibly poor handling from the university's pov. Shocking but seems to ignore the whole premise of it just being "lad's chat" to be honest it reminds me a little of the Tinder thread when I saw it year's ago. The whole mentality of young males and their excuse of lad's chat or banter is an affront to the female population and any self-respecting male. Was the story big news in the UK at the time? Has it had any effect on Warwick University student demand? My wife went to Warwick and I met her around her 2nd and my final year so used to mingle with some the students there at the time. There was definitely an arrogance among some of the guys there, well at least with those that I encountered. Many of them were particularly affluent, or from affluent backgrounds anyway, a couple of the guys that my wife lived with were given a hefty sum every few months from Daddy to keep them going and weren't the slightest bit grateful for it either. Of course I only met a select few, but my wife said that wasn't unusual across her 3 years there. There was, may even still be, a website dedicated to rating students out of 10 which probably doesn't help. I don't think the issue is a Warwick specific thing however. I imagine that there's definitely an alpha male vibe across many Uni's, Russell Group ones especially. The mixture of being an adult but not having adult responsibilities seems to make some think they're immortal. Completely irrelevant, but I also met Celia Imrie's son a few times as he was on the same course and he was/is lovely.
Guest Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 11 minutes ago, MattP said: All due respect, you are looking at this through the eyes of somebody who voted Remain. To understand it you need to put yourself completely into the mindset of somebody who voted Brexit. Many many leave voters now couldn't care less what a manifesto says as it's not worth the paper it is written on. Bigger things are at stake, they are seeing the biggest mandate in British political history being systematically destroyed. When that is happening your average promise on a leaflet from an MP is an ant compared to an elephant. I'm amazed how many people (and from personal experience this is exclusively Remainers, not right or left as I've had the opinion Tories as well) just think this is going to blow over and in a GE all votes just return to the main parties, it's wishful thinking - we are in completely different territory here than we have been. The Brexit party are now only a 6/1 chance to win the most seats at an actual GE and they'll be about joint favourites if we see a reversal of the decision taken to leave - if people genuinely think leavers won't vote them because they don't write a manifesto (which they will anyway) or because they are sharing an NHS quote from Farage from a decade ago they are in the same sort of deluded state the 2017 Tories were on Corbyn. You could be right Matt. Although I think you and they are really blowing a small win out of proportion considering that leave was such a fractured choice as in undefined but that's old water. I understand that many people feel that they weren't listened to and now want those parties to pay. The way to do this is to vote for the Brexit party. That would be acceptable if the Brexit party also has ideas for running the country but it shows incredible stupidity on voter's behalves if they are voting a party into power whose sole policy is to leave Europe at any cost. This is where the FPTP election can really let itself down compared to the torturous French Presidential election where the candidates are narrowed down to a head to head vote. We've seen recently that the protest party - the NF - have done well in early voting but then been annhialated in the final head to head against which ever opposition. If we had transferable votes in the UK do you think that the Brexit party would still win many seats in a GE?
Nick Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 Surely, no matter what the next PM does their only option will be hard Brexit if the EU continue with their stance. If Parliament get a shout on that not going through it’s back to Mays deal again or No Brexit at all... If I was a Tory with ambitions for the top job I think I’d be sitting in the background keeping the powder dry and passing the poison chalice directly to Boris or Gove with a congratulatory smile.
Guest MattP Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said: Can you imagine a situation where the ‘right remain’ feel so robbed and disillusioned that they put Farage in for PM in a general election? I mean the thought of Boris or Corbyn are quite frankly as deeply uncomfortable as each other depending which side of the fence you are pitched or sat upon, but Farage as PM is just surely the daftest, most abhorrent, stupid and farcical move for anybody to put an X in any box beyond a protest vote? Absolutely anything could happen. If four parties are genuinely competing then 28% of the vote could be enough for a majority. On a Brexit reversal Farage should be able to get that. It's obviously unlikely as there would surely be a Remain pact - but because of how spread the Leave vote is compared to the Remain one the percentages on Thursday would have delivered a Brexit party majority of over 200 and the Conservative party winning 0. With FPTP and four parties close just winning by 10% can give you a landslide - which is yet again another reason why I'm certain the politicians advocating a second referendum haven't thought this through.
Guest MattP Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 5 minutes ago, FIF said: You could be right Matt. Although I think you and they are really blowing a small win out of proportion considering that leave was such a fractured choice as in undefined but that's old water. I understand that many people feel that they weren't listened to and now want those parties to pay. The way to do this is to vote for the Brexit party. That would be acceptable if the Brexit party also has ideas for running the country but it shows incredible stupidity on voter's behalves if they are voting a party into power whose sole policy is to leave Europe at any cost. This is where the FPTP election can really let itself down compared to the torturous French Presidential election where the candidates are narrowed down to a head to head vote. We've seen recently that the protest party - the NF - have done well in early voting but then been annhialated in the final head to head against which ever opposition. If we had transferable votes in the UK do you think that the Brexit party would still win many seats in a GE? I don't think voting on the issue of implementing decisions is a bad thing. Another mistake Remainers are guaranteed to make is they'll assume Farage fights the GE on Brexit - he won't be, he'll be fighting it on the issue of democracy. If any of them bothered to watch his rallies (which I doubt) they would have seen the difference, not once did he mention immigration this time, it was all about democracy and implementing decisions government gives us. What should really worry the Remain side is that turnout was up last week in their areas according to Thrasher and Curtice and down in Leave ones. That was the result with Remainers galvanised and a lot of leavers still at home.
Stadt Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 I’d never heard of him before and no idea what his voting record is like but Rory Stewart is quite refreshing. Seems to be about positivity rather than campaigning as the least worst option.
David Guiza Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 Boris has got his day in court https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-will-be-summonsed-to-court-to-face-accusations-of-misconduct-in-public-office-for-a4153791.html
davieG Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 10 minutes ago, David Guiza said: Boris has got his day in court https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-will-be-summonsed-to-court-to-face-accusa Link not working for me.
Nick Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 10 minutes ago, David Guiza said: Boris has got his day in court https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-will-be-summonsed-to-court-to-face-accusa To be fair he does kinda deserve the opportunity to account for himself over many instances of simply making up shit.
Nick Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 Try this one... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/29/boris-johnson-appear-court-eu-referendum-misconduct-claims
David Guiza Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 2 minutes ago, davieG said: Link not working for me. Should be now 1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said: To be fair he does kinda deserve the opportunity to account for himself over many instances of simply making up shit. Part of me can imagine it ending with Boris singing and dancing out the court room with the judge, jury and prosecution singing along as he has a knack of getting people on his side, somehow. It is refreshing to see him held to account for a change.
Nick Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 1 minute ago, David Guiza said: Should be now Part of me can imagine it ending with Boris singing and dancing out the court room with the judge, jury and prosecution singing along as he has a knack of getting people on his side, somehow. It is refreshing to see him held to account for a change. So many politicians now including Mogg coming out saying the court shouldn't be used for political gains and this isn't about justice. Fuch off? As an MP (Was he a Cabinet member at the time as well?) and in a position of trust, deliberately using false information to sway public opinion in a vote that changes the landscape of an entire continent? It's exactly about abuse of power for Political gain and its about Justice in relation to potentially damaging the outcome of a referendum. And before all you Boris supporters reply, think back to what you said about Blair and his dodgy dossier and wether or not he should be in prison. Boris is not a harmless bumbling fool who gets things in a muddle... he's a lying, dangerous millionaire with an appetite for power.
Nick Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 10 minutes ago, David Guiza said: Should be now Part of me can imagine it ending with Boris singing and dancing out the court room with the judge, jury and prosecution singing along as he has a knack of getting people on his side, somehow. It is refreshing to see him held to account for a change. Sort of like Hugh Grant at the end of Paddington 2... yes I can see that!
David Guiza Posted 29 May 2019 Posted 29 May 2019 5 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: So many politicians now including Mogg coming out saying the court shouldn't be used for political gains and this isn't about justice. Fuch off? As an MP (Was he a Cabinet member at the time as well?) and in a position of trust, deliberately using false information to sway public opinion in a vote that changes the landscape of an entire continent? It's exactly about abuse of power for Political gain and its about Justice in relation to potentially damaging the outcome of a referendum. And before all you Boris supporters reply, think back to what you said about Blair and his dodgy dossier and wether or not he should be in prison. Boris is not a harmless bumbling fool who gets things in a muddle... he's a lying, dangerous millionaire with an appetite for power. Absolutely, he's a very intelligent and calculated man who knew exactly what he was doing. So many people voted on the basis of the bloody bus and it's not as though he's crazy Keith down the pub pulling figures out his backside to convince his mates that he's right, he's crazy Boris saying it on television, in the press and on a giant red bus to influence a potentially large group of people.
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