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[simFox]

13 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I agree, i’d rather we have a GE than a referendum.

As things stand I’d more than likely weaken my side by voting for the brexit party but I’m open to ANY party/candidate that has the right vision or message.

Best a leaver can hope for is a brexit coalition. Farage won't stand against brexit candidates from other parties, so a good bit of tactical politics might get a good result.

[Strokes]

20 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Because it works so well in the US

Why can’t we have the best of both worlds like they do in many EU countries, I know we all think they superiors to ourselves, it’s hardly a great stretch.

[What the Fuchs?]

We will probably be having this discussion after October if the Labour Party don’t provide a clear alternative to the Tories thus allowing the public to clearly show their wishes in elections - I voted remain as I thought Brexit and the concurrent turmoil it would create would desperately harm our country, looks like I was right. If only the EU had been less intransigent on laws limiting the curvature of bananas and regularly upping sticks between Strasbourg and Brussels for no reason, and maybe Farage and BoJo wouldn’t have had so much ammunition to propel us into this mess.

[Strokes]

18 minutes ago, simFox said:

Best a leaver can hope for is a brexit coalition. Farage won't stand against brexit candidates from other parties, so a good bit of tactical politics might get a good result.

This won’t be won in a fair clean fight, that’s for sure.

[Guest SO1]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Why can’t we have the best of both worlds like they do in many EU countries, I know we all think they superiors to ourselves, it’s hardly a great stretch.

How could anyone ever trust the private enterprise/ Financially run systems ever again.

Where do profit margins come from? CEO CFO salaries and their stock options in the millions. Who pays for them?

This is where we are at with the level of corruption at its present state. Corrupt governments, Corrupt corporations, Corrupt people. Will anyone care for each other?

Larger more complicated systems are not the answer.

 

[Strokes]

28 minutes ago, SO1 said:

How could anyone ever trust the private enterprise/ Financially run systems ever again.

Where do profit margins come from? CEO CFO salaries and their stock options in the millions. Who pays for them?

This is where we are at with the level of corruption at its present state. Corrupt governments, Corrupt corporations, Corrupt people. Will anyone care for each other?

Larger more complicated systems are not the answer.

 

Where are the best run healthcare systems in the world?

[WigstonWanderer]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Where are the best run healthcare systems in the world?

I find the one here in Oz first rate. Dental work very expensive though as it isn’t covered.

[Strokes]

11 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

I find the one here in Oz first rate.

Don’t you have to pay to see a GP in oz?

[Guest SO1]

26 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Where are the best run healthcare systems in the world?

Healthcare for everyone or healthcare for the people who can afford it?

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, SO1 said:

Healthcare for everyone or healthcare for the people who can afford it?

Just the ill mate.

[Benguin]

1 hour ago, What the Fuchs? said:

We will probably be having this discussion after October if the Labour Party don’t provide a clear alternative to the Tories thus allowing the public to clearly show their wishes in elections - I voted remain as I thought Brexit and the concurrent turmoil it would create would desperately harm our country, looks like I was right. If only the EU had been less intransigent on laws limiting the curvature of bananas and regularly upping sticks between Strasbourg and Brussels for no reason, and maybe Farage and BoJo wouldn’t have had so much ammunition to propel us into this mess.

Why does it look as if you were right? We haven’t left yet. Or are you referring to the turmoil of trying to leave? 

[Haywood_6]

Brexit Party Rally. Seem like a friendly lot. Ronnie Pickering would be proud of that Vinnie Sullivan. Couldn't help but laugh when the woman said "I'm not racist - I have a black friend" either. And then the students, you don't agree with me? you are indoctrinated! Respect to Owen for doing this video, he was calm, measured and simply just asked for people to share their view. Shame he had to handle aggressive and intimidating behaviour like that. This should not happen on either side.

[WigstonWanderer]

3 hours ago, Strokes said:

Don’t you have to pay to see a GP in oz?

Medicare cover up to a certain amount but it’s up to the doctor how much he charges. Some doctors including my own still only charge the Medicare amount so there’s no gap to pay. For some doctors the gap can be quite significant up to maybe $20 or $30 for a consultation, but you are free to choose your GP. This aspect is something of a lottery, but it’s very easy to get an appointment, often a short notice.

 

Access to emergency department treatment at hospitals is subject to the usual triaged wait, sometimes for a few hours depending on your condition and how busy they are. Very easy generally to get X-rays, CT scans & MRIs, though there is sometimes charge (MRIs I think).

 

Many people do have insurance but this is generally optional, though encouraged by the taxation system for middle & upper income earners. There is a Medicare levy of 2% taxation to help pay for the services.

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, simFox said:

The reason for the uprising of the right, is because of the militant and very noisy left.

This argument has been given on here before, two things:

 

- what Stalinist (if you want to pick a different definition for militant, far-left, go ahead) organisations actually hold any kind of power anywhere in Europe right now outside of a university campus or two? Just because there's been a general movement in Europe towards a more egalitarian society where women and minorities aren't  treated like second-class citizens (most of the time) doesn't constitute a rise of a militant left. On the other hand, Hungary does have a far right government in charge (if they're not far-right then I wouldn't mind hearing why) and other countries in Europe are at least flirting with the idea. The fear of the tankies coming over the horizon to set up bread lines and gulag undesirables is completely unfounded at the present time IMO.

 

- even if such fears above were justified, is then turning to people like Orban in vast swathes a conscionable answer to it, given what it might entail? If so, then fair enough.

 

 

5 hours ago, Benguin said:

I think a lot of people get centre right and far right mixed up. Could be because there has been a huge shift from centre left to far left, which makes centre right views seem far right. Probably talking bollocks though. Eurosceptism definitley isn’t just a far right view though. 

You're right in that Euroscepticism and nationalism are both right and left-wing viewpoints (I think) - but see above wrt misplaced fear and definition of a "far left".

[What the Fuchs?]

4 hours ago, What the Fuchs? said:

We will probably be having this discussion after October if the Labour Party don’t provide a clear alternative to the Tories thus allowing the public to clearly show their wishes in elections - I voted remain as I thought Brexit and the concurrent turmoil it would create would desperately harm our country, looks like I was right. If only the EU had been less intransigent on laws limiting the curvature of bananas and regularly upping sticks between Strasbourg and Brussels for no reason, and maybe Farage and BoJo wouldn’t have had so much ammunition to propel us into this mess.

 

2 hours ago, Benguin said:

Why does it look as if you were right? We haven’t left yet. Or are you referring to the turmoil of trying to leave? 

The second one. Although it’s not definite, you’d be forgiven for thinking we’d be worse off once we’re out too. The only ‘advantage’ people go on about is that we would have the freedom to make trade deals with other partners, but why would these trade deals necessarily be better than what we tangibly already have? It’s all about migration in the end, lots of people had that on their mind when they voted for it, not trade deals with China.

 

Plus it’s gonna be fun paying for visas to go to France and paying €30 to visit European tourist sites where we currently can get in free or very cheaply, on a more personal level

[Guest MattP]

8 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Because it works so well in the US

Slightly off topic - but for the rest of the World the US system is great, the private investment has driven so much of the medical advancement we have seen.

 

It will be a bad day for everyone outside America if their healthcare system is nationalised.

[Guest MattP]

In addition to this no one has mentioned what John Curtice told us - turnout was up in Remain areas and down in Leave ones - so despite winning the Brexit party didn't get all it's target demographic out.

 

I can't wait to see how they spin Peterborough if the Brexit party win that.

[Guest MattP]

The Conservative party didn't a single constituency in the whole country in the Euros.

 

[Guest MattP]

Can anyone spot the problem with this BBC graph?

 

 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Slightly off topic - but for the rest of the World the US system is great, the private investment has driven so much of the medical advancement we have seen.

 

It will be a bad day for everyone outside America if their healthcare system is nationalised.

...assuming that such competitive models are the only or even the best way to drive progress in this or any other field of science?

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

...assuming that such competitive models are the only or even the best way to drive progress in this or any other field of science?

Well given the evidence we have of course it is. Can you provide a country with universal healthcare that comes even close to American standards of development? 

[leicsmac]

52 minutes ago, MattP said:

Well given the evidence we have of course it is. Can you provide a country with universal healthcare that comes even close to American standards of development? 

I'm not denying it's a very good method (the Cold War put men on the Moon, for instance) but I'm saying perhaps there are methods out there that could have an equal level of development without the inevitable losers being left by the wayside within such a model (as evidenced by the US coming rather low in terms of overall health outcomes across the entire populace as opposed to only those who can afford to get the latest treatments).

[Captain...]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

In addition to this no one has mentioned what John Curtice told us - turnout was up in Remain areas and down in Leave ones - so despite winning the Brexit party didn't get all it's target demographic out.

 

I can't wait to see how they spin Peterborough if the Brexit party win that.

As I said before you can’t include Tory or Labour votes, they have a core voter base that will vote regardless and don’t just represent a Brexit view point. I also wouldn’t include SNP or Plaid they represent more than just a Brexit stance. Lib Dem and Green made huge gains because of their Remain stance, but it is also not a true Remain vote as they are not the Remain party. On your second point the reason the remain vote increased was because Farage did a great job mobilising the anti EU vote at the last European election. Retainers weren’t a thing then and interest in the European elections was low as nobody saw this shit storm coming.

 

Ultimately it is inconclusive as any sort of analysis into the countries Remain/Leave stance there are too many variables in play. All you can say for certain is there is huge support for Brexit and huge support for Remain.

 

Instead of fannying around with manipulating the European election results to resolve the leave remain question let’s just have another referendum.

[Milo]

11 minutes ago, Captain... said:

As I said before you can’t include Tory or Labour votes, they have a core voter base that will vote regardless and don’t just represent a Brexit view point. I also wouldn’t include SNP or Plaid they represent more than just a Brexit stance. Lib Dem and Green made huge gains because of their Remain stance, but it is also not a true Remain vote as they are not the Remain party. On your second point the reason the remain vote increased was because Farage did a great job mobilising the anti EU vote at the last European election. Retainers weren’t a thing then and interest in the European elections was low as nobody saw this shit storm coming.

 

Ultimately it is inconclusive as any sort of analysis into the countries Remain/Leave stance there are too many variables in play. All you can say for certain is there is huge support for Brexit and huge support for Remain.

 

Instead of fannying around with manipulating the European election results to resolve the leave remain question let’s just have another referendum.

Why?

[Guest MattP]

18 minutes ago, Captain... said:

As I said before you can’t include Tory or Labour votes, they have a core voter base that will vote regardless and don’t just represent a Brexit view point. I also wouldn’t include SNP or Plaid they represent more than just a Brexit stance. Lib Dem and Green made huge gains because of their Remain stance, but it is also not a true Remain vote as they are not the Remain party. On your second point the reason the remain vote increased was because Farage did a great job mobilising the anti EU vote at the last European election. Retainers weren’t a thing then and interest in the European elections was low as nobody saw this shit storm coming.

 

Ultimately it is inconclusive as any sort of analysis into the countries Remain/Leave stance there are too many variables in play. All you can say for certain is there is huge support for Brexit and huge support for Remain.

 

Instead of fannying around with manipulating the European election results to resolve the leave remain question let’s just have another referendum.

The Conservative party are campaigning on delivering Brexit - to not count them in the pro-Brexit vote share is nonsensical.

 

Why would we have another referendum when there is no mandate for it and why would any leave voter trust politicians to implement the result?

 

Just having another referendum in the hope of people voting Remain so you can reverse it isn't a serious option.

 

I know people like you hope and probably expected that a huge shift would have happened by now but it hasn't and the war on arithmetic and redefining of party positions to try and show it might have is becoming increasingly bizarre.