Also in the news

[Benguin]

6 hours ago, What the Fuchs? said:

 

The second one. Although it’s not definite, you’d be forgiven for thinking we’d be worse off once we’re out too. The only ‘advantage’ people go on about is that we would have the freedom to make trade deals with other partners, but why would these trade deals necessarily be better than what we tangibly already have? It’s all about migration in the end, lots of people had that on their mind when they voted for it, not trade deals with China.

 

Plus it’s gonna be fun paying for visas to go to France and paying €30 to visit European tourist sites where we currently can get in free or very cheaply, on a more personal level

So you agree that you weren’t right and are just speculating? 

[MC Prussian]

14 hours ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

Great to see the far right  do so well in France. It's growing across Europe, due mainly to high immigration numbers. This happening is  inevitable, and will continue to happen ,unless repatriation  programmes are introduced.

Neither extreme on the political spectrum is good or holy on the whole.

I wish centre-left or centre-right parties would take on the most pertinent issues with more interest and dedication instead.

 

The success of Rassemblement National under Le Pen is the failure of leftist-socialist politics in France under Macron, more and more taxes (the basis for the Yellow Vest uprising), disillusionment with the Left, high unemployment (although it's come down a bit lately), the fate of the banlieues, illegal immigration.

 

Curious to see how the Green Party does in France, just as much as its counterpart in Germany. They promised a lot, now it's time to keep those promises.

[ajthefox]

4 hours ago, MattP said:

Slightly off topic - but for the rest of the World the US system is great, the private investment has driven so much of the medical advancement we have seen.

 

It will be a bad day for everyone outside America if their healthcare system is nationalised.

Are you on about pre Obamacare or now?

 

As far as I can tell, loads of very sick people (I don't know the stats so correct me if the percentages say differently) get refused healthcare and by extension die because of it. At least pre Obama anyway. Do you feel that is a price worth paying for the greater good long term inside and outside the states? I may have missed the point slightly but I'm genuinely curious what your opinion on private (at the point of service) is because imo it doesn't always mean better, and invariably it does mean the transfer of extraordinary wealth into the hands of very few. At least in healthcare, anyway.

[Alf Bentley]

19 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

 

The success of Rassemblement National under Le Pen is the failure of leftist-socialist politics in France under Macron, more and more taxes (the basis for the Yellow Vest uprising), disillusionment with the Left, high unemployment (although it's come down a bit lately), the fate of the banlieues, illegal immigration.

 

 

 

Do you feel that the Revolutionary Marxist-Leninist Maoism of the Lib Dems under Vince Cable is as big a danger to the UK as the leftist-socialist politics of Macron?

 

Well, I suppose that if you inhabit a world where Tommy Robinson is a reasonable, centre-ground figure, Macron would constitute "leftist socialism".....all a matter of perspective, eh? 

[Voll Blau]

 

[MC Prussian]

5 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

Do you feel that the Revolutionary Marxist-Leninist Maoism of the Lib Dems under Vince Cable is as big a danger to the UK as the leftist-socialist politics of Macron?

 

Well, I suppose that if you inhabit a world where Tommy Robinson is a reasonable, centre-ground figure, Macron would constitute "leftist socialism".....all a matter of perspective, eh? 

Vince Cable is an old fart and needs replacing asap.  UK's version of Bernie Sanders.

I'm a bit of a fan of the Lib Dems, but much more eurosceptic. I would feel much more at home with the Social Democrats in the UK.

 

You can despise the far-right and still applaud some people for their attempt at a reasonable debate. Still better than violence or incitement to commit violence, right? And who knows, maybe with time, they alter their stance and move even further towards the center...

Plus, using balaclavas, covering ones face and showing off Palestine flags are predominantly far-left symbols. Very courageous, disguising oneself. 

[Guest MattP]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Can anyone spot the problem with this BBC graph?

 

 

In addition to this - here is the BBC's own piece on "where the Tories stand" which bizarrely still wasn't enough to get them into the pro-Brexit column.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

Great to see the far right  do so well in France. It's growing across Europe, due mainly to high immigration numbers. This happening is  inevitable, and will continue to happen ,unless repatriation  programmes are introduced.

 

What a load of tosh. The Far right didn't do so well in France. The surprise was how well Macron's party did considering they are in power and changing things. Perhaps qualify what you are saying when you have no idea.

 

 

13 hours ago, MattP said:

I still think Leavers should boycott a second referendum anyway - give it no legitimacy.

 

Watch parliament reverse it on a 99% Remain win on a low turnout then focus on the next General Election.

 

If they boycott then they lose - rightly so. If they don't boycott and they win the vote then who is going to question the fact that 2 out of 2 referendums have insisted on brexit.

 

13 hours ago, Strokes said:

No it isn’t they upheld my vote, you might have been happy with TMs leaving the door half open deal but it wasn’t enough for me. I’d take it over nothing but I’d want them to fight for more and get it if possible.

The vote wassplit almost down the middle. The difference between the two sides was that one side understood what remain meant - it only had 1 meaning - whilst leave have multiple meanings. Leave won but now leavers can't decide what they actually meant by leave. If the could it'd be sorted.

 

 

12 hours ago, Strokes said:

Where are the best run healthcare systems in the world?

France has a very good healthcare system.

 

 

4 hours ago, MattP said:

Slightly off topic - but for the rest of the World the US system is great, the private investment has driven so much of the medical advancement we have seen.

 

It will be a bad day for everyone outside America if their healthcare system is nationalised.

The US System is great for the rich and to a lesser extent young working people. It isn't so great for the poor or the old.

 

I get what you're saying about the rest of the world. I'd put that down to coming out of the second world war twice as rich as when you entered it whilst everyone else is poorer. 

 

 

1 hour ago, MattP said:

The Conservative party are campaigning on delivering Brexit - to not count them in the pro-Brexit vote share is nonsensical.

 

Why would we have another referendum when there is no mandate for it and why would any leave voter trust politicians to implement the result?

 

Just having another referendum in the hope of people voting Remain so you can reverse it isn't a serious option.

 

I know people like you hope and probably expected that a huge shift would have happened by now but it hasn't and the war on arithmetic and redefining of party positions to try and show it might have is becoming increasingly bizarre.

 

I agree. The voters for the Tories should be classed as brexiteers. The Euros made it look like Brexiteers are still slightly more majoritaire than remainers. It also must be understood that no-one in the UK really took the Euro elections as meaning anything because they don't think it will have any effect on them so protesting the sorry state of English politics by voting for the brexit party was likely. I think if Raving Lord sutch had got a party together as anti-politicians they'd have got seats too.

 

34 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Neither extreme on the political spectrum is good or holy on the whole.

I wish centre-left or centre-right parties would take on the most pertinent issues with more interest and dedication instead.

 

The success of Rassemblement National under Le Pen is the failure of leftist-socialist politics in France under Macron, more and more taxes (the basis for the Yellow Vest uprising), disillusionment with the Left, high unemployment (although it's come down a bit lately), the fate of the banlieues, illegal immigration.

 

Curious to see how the Green Party does in France, just as much as its counterpart in Germany. They promised a lot, now it's time to keep those promises.

 

You need to do a lot more reading and probably not of the right wing  sites you read. This is rubbish - you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

[MC Prussian]

9 minutes ago, FIF said:

You need to do a lot more reading and probably not of the right wing  sites you read. This is rubbish - you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

I read a plethora of sites, all across the political spectrum. My favourite daily newspaper is on the centre-left, FFS.

 

Rubbish you say?

Quote

The most of Front National’s successes were in the east and west of the country, in areas with high unemployment and immigration rates.

The moderation of Front National's image after Marine Le Pen took control, as well as her positioning the party as being anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim, as well as the tackling of economic insecurity being one of its main points and communicating a general disgust with the political establishment have helped Marine Le Pen gain more voters and set a new record in the municipal election results.

 

Quote

 ... more and more millennials are supporting Front National. Millennials say that the recent terrorist attacks in France, referring to the 14th of July, 2016 in Nice and 13th of November, 2015 in Paris, and various attacks across Europe, validate their personal views, as well as the anti-immigration stance of the party.

https://www.diggitmagazine.com/articles/increase-popularity-marine-le-pen-s-front-national

 

This disgust aimed at former president Hollande is continuing under Macron, two Socialists who share the same ideals.

 

We now see a turn in the political views of many a young voter, teenagers and young adults who are turning their back on the leftist program and are becoming more conservative.

 

But maybe you want to elaborate more on what you think led to the rise of the RN under Marine Le Pen?

 

EDIT: For what it's worth, RN's ties with certain Russian individuals need further examination:

https://corporateeurope.org/en/2019/05/authoritarian-right-france

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

I read a plethora of sites, all across the political spectrum. My favourite daily newspaper is on the centre-left, FFS.

 

Rubbish you say?

 

https://www.diggitmagazine.com/articles/increase-popularity-marine-le-pen-s-front-national

 

This disgust aimed at former president Hollande is continuing under Macron, two Socialists who share the same ideals.

 

We now see a turn in the political views of many a young voter, teenagers and young adults who are turning their back on the leftist program and are becoming more conservative.

 

But maybe you want to elaborate more on what you think led to the rise of the RN under Marine Le Pen?

 

EDIT: For what it's worth, RN's ties with certain Russian individuals need further examination:

https://corporateeurope.org/en/2019/05/authoritarian-right-france

You are still spouting rubbish.

 

There is no rise of the RN (FN) under Le Pen. I guess you haven't noticed that they've been in the mix for a long time - they are the party of the rural thick and the old and sure they get a few votes when unemployment goes up. They are the protest vote party. But when it comes down to the 1 to 1 choice that France narrow it down to they bomb because the French whilst always being upset with their lot are far more politically savvy than Brits and realise that Le Pen and her racist haters are not a party to run a country. They vote for whoever the opposition is even though it may be the exact opposite of their previous vote.

 

And I'm really unsure where you've got this idea that young voters vote Le Pen. Just the oppositie. Majority of young voters detest Le Pen's views.

 

Finally I'm sure you are aware that Macron's party didn't even exist 10 years ago but I had to laugh when you said that Macron and Hollande have the same ideals - they don't they just both believe in a fairer society for all citizens. If they had the same ideals Macron wouldn't have needed to form a new party. Bit like the SDP or I guess UKIP.

[urban.spaceman]

[MC Prussian]

46 minutes ago, FIF said:

You are still spouting rubbish.

 

There is no rise of the RN (FN) under Le Pen. I guess you haven't noticed that they've been in the mix for a long time - they are the party of the rural thick and the old and sure they get a few votes when unemployment goes up. They are the protest vote party. But when it comes down to the 1 to 1 choice that France narrow it down to they bomb because the French whilst always being upset with their lot are far more politically savvy than Brits and realise that Le Pen and her racist haters are not a party to run a country. They vote for whoever the opposition is even though it may be the exact opposite of their previous vote.

 

And I'm really unsure where you've got this idea that young voters vote Le Pen. Just the oppositie. Majority of young voters detest Le Pen's views.

 

Finally I'm sure you are aware that Macron's party didn't even exist 10 years ago but I had to laugh when you said that Macron and Hollande have the same ideals - they don't they just both believe in a fairer society for all citizens. If they had the same ideals Macron wouldn't have needed to form a new party. Bit like the SDP or I guess UKIP.

In the past five to ten years, the FN/RN has gained more and more percentages of voters in France, be it in presidential campaigns or in Parliament and the EU parliament in particular.

How is that not a rise?

As far as I can tell, the party struggles with its inherently evil past under Le Pen's father and is trying to distance itself from racism and antisemitism. You could probably tell me more about how successful they are in doing so.

 

En Marche is Macron's vehicle, I mean the party even shares the same initials as his name. In its personality cult, it comes across as Farage's position as part and head of the Brexit Party, just on the left. En Marche isn't exempt from criticism:

https://www.marianne.net/monde/absolutisme-des-qi-superieurs-macron-critique-par-son-meilleur-ami-allemand

https://www.dw.com/en/is-macrons-en-marche-out-of-step/a-46198077

 

The change in attitude among young people wasn't aimed at FN/RN voters in particular, I see it more as a disenchantment with SJW culture in general, which is finding its way into politics also.

So it does hold some truth with regards to the FN/RN:

Quote

L'extrême droite séduit aussi les jeunes

Malgré une très grande majorité apparente de tweets, posts Facebook ou stories Snapchat ou instagram se désolant de la première place du Rassemblement National, une réelle partie des jeunes électeurs est elle aussi derrière le parti de Marine Le Pen. Le RN totalise 15% des votes chez les 18-24 ans, et même 20% chez les 25-34 ans.

http://www.purebreak.com/news/elections-europeennes-3-choses-a-retenir-du-vote-des-jeunes-en-france/176494

 

Quote

In the first round of the presidential election in 2007, Front National obtained just 6% of the votes of 18-24 year olds, and in 2012 this had grown to 18% (Obs, 2012). Three years later, in the regional elections, 34% of 18-24 year olds voted for Front National (Anonymous, 2015).

https://www.diggitmagazine.com/articles/increase-popularity-marine-le-pen-s-front-national

Note that this is about voter turnout by young people for a party on the far right. I deliberately said "more conservative" with regards to the shift, so that can be anything to the right of the Socialists or leftist parties on the whole.

 

Like I've said, I have high hopes for the Green Party. Wonder how they'll deliver what they're promising.

[Finnaldo]

The worst the 'Far Left' get in the UK are bad opinions, attempting to deplatform people they don't like at Uni campuses and a couple of bellends throwing soft drinks.

 

Meanwhile the Counter-Terrorism Chief noted four foiled terrorism plots from Far Right extremists in 2017:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43200966

 

There's also a growing number of Far Right referrals to prevent:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47645863

 

There's plenty of bellends and apathy in the Far Left, but this myth that they're somehow the biggest threat to the West is clearly bullshit.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

In addition to this - here is the BBC's own piece on "where the Tories stand" which bizarrely still wasn't enough to get them into the pro-Brexit column.

 

I agree that the Tories have to be counted as pro-Brexit, but that only takes our arbitrary figure to about 44% voting for pro-Brexit parties.

Labour supported Remain in the referendum, then became a party that accepted the Leave result, but wanted Soft Brexit & was vehemently opposed to No Deal, preferring a public vote to the latter.

 

Brexiteers keenly cite the fact that, in 2017, 90%+ of the electorate voted for parties that said they'd honour the referendum result.

But, by that yardstick, 55% of the electorate voted for parties vehemently opposed to No Deal, 43% for parties strongly preferring a negotiated Deal & less than 2% advocating No Deal (UKIP, anyone else?)

 

The Brexit Party did well to get 32% support for No Deal (35% with UKIP)......but 35% still compares unfavourably with 48.1% who voted Remain in a much bigger voting exercise.

 

There is no mandate whatsoever for No Deal, yet several Tory leadership candidates (Boris, Raab, McVeigh....) are calling for us to leave in October, with or without a deal, when there is little prospect of negotiating a new deal before then.

You've said that you'd like Raab to win, I think? How do you square that with your love of democracy and electoral mandates based on manifestos?

 

Here are the 2017 Tory and Labour manifestos:

https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto

It does include the "no deal is better than a bad deal" soundbite, alongside the "deep and special partnership" soundbite. But the focus is clearly on a negotiated Brexit deal: "Only the Conservative Party, under Theresa May's strong and stable leadership, can negotiate the best possible deal for our country". It even mentions "a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement" within 2 years .

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/#first

"Labour accepts the referendum result....We will prioritise jobs and living standards, build a close new relationship with the EU, protect workers’ rights and environmental standards... We will end Theresa May’s reckless approach to Brexit, and seek to unite the country around a Brexit deal that works for every community in Britain....We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union....Labour recognises that leaving the EU with ‘no deal’ is the worst possible deal for Britain and that it would do damage to our economy and trade. We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option"

 

To be fair, both May & Corbyn have pursued the approaches advocated in their respective manifestos - and have been hammered by the electorates who voted for them on that basis.

 

Here are some other Tory quotes on the Deal/No Deal issue:

“The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want.” – Michael Gove, April 2016

“Within two years – before negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete and therefore before anything material has changed – we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU. The new trade agreements will come into force at point of exit.” David Davis, July 2016

“Coming to a free trade agreement with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history.” – Liam Fox, July 2017.

“We’ll get a great result out of Brexit. We’ll also unite the country.”– Dominic Raab, June 2018

 

[David Guiza]

Alastair Campbell expelled from Labour. 

 

[simFox]

12 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Alastair Campbell expelled from Labour. 

 

12 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

 

Another lefty bites the dust..

[Guest MattP]

44 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

I agree that the Tories have to be counted as pro-Brexit, but that only takes our arbitrary figure to about 44% voting for pro-Brexit parties.

Labour supported Remain in the referendum, then became a party that accepted the Leave result, but wanted Soft Brexit & was vehemently opposed to No Deal, preferring a public vote to the latter.

 

Brexiteers keenly cite the fact that, in 2017, 90%+ of the electorate voted for parties that said they'd honour the referendum result.

But, by that yardstick, 55% of the electorate voted for parties vehemently opposed to No Deal, 43% for parties strongly preferring a negotiated Deal & less than 2% advocating No Deal (UKIP, anyone else?)

 

The Brexit Party did well to get 32% support for No Deal (35% with UKIP)......but 35% still compares unfavourably with 48.1% who voted Remain in a much bigger voting exercise.

 

There is no mandate whatsoever for No Deal, yet several Tory leadership candidates (Boris, Raab, McVeigh....) are calling for us to leave in October, with or without a deal, when there is little prospect of negotiating a new deal before then.

You've said that you'd like Raab to win, I think? How do you square that with your love of democracy and electoral mandates based on manifestos?

I full agree - I'm not arguing for No deal or saying there is a mandate for it. My point it it appears the BBC are deliberately manipulating figures to show "anti Brexit" parties against "pro Brexit parties" when the figures they are actually coming to isn't the latter but "No Deal" parties.

 

Yes I'd like to Raab to win and I fully hope the threat of No Deal leads us to getting one parliament can pass - if not then you know what the law states.

[Guest MattP]

16 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Alastair Campbell expelled from Labour. 

 

 

Hilarious stuff, I bet Corbyn has been waiting for this moment for ages.

[Voll Blau]

[Guest Kopfkino]

If only they'd been so quick to expel the anti-semite they wouldn't now be under investigation by EHRC for being institutionally racist. 

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

If only they'd been so quick to expel the anti-semite they wouldn't now be under investigation by EHRC for being institutionally racist. 

First British political party since the BNP to be investigated by them. 

 

Solid effort that.

[Guest Kopfkino]

4 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Quite clearly a difference between voting for another party and congratulating someone for winning and suggesting what message should be taken from that. 

[Guest MattP]

Full story.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/28/equality-body-launches-investigation-of-labour-antisemitism-claims

[urban.spaceman]

Also:

 

Self appointed representatives of one religious group complaining of 92 examples of an unworkable version of a word they helped define, that makes no sense whatsoever....

[Guest MattP]

14 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Quite clearly a difference between voting for another party and congratulating someone for winning and suggesting what message should be taken from that. 

Had Campbell advocated a vote for the British Communist party he might have been made an advisor to the leader.