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[David Guiza]

39 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

However, to actually deal with Spaceman's point, I find myself somewhat conflicted over the issue; one the one hand, I have no objection to the specifics (teaching kids about LGBT relationships), but I do feel uncomfortable with the principle of allowing the abrogation of parents' rights to decide what they consider to be best for their children, particularly children of a young age.

It's certainly a difficult one. Going against the will of a parent is morally wrong, but allowing parents to interfere with what and what isn't acceptable for their child(ren) to be taught is also a slippery slope. Ultimately though, from my perspective, the best and most effective way to tackle ignorance and hate is through education and if parents were to block that then you could argue that the potentially ignorant views of the parents will go on through their offspring. 

 

As for your first point - I did assume that was the case, my point was more against Esther McVey in that parents don't always know best when it comes to education and intentionally ignoring topics here and there isn't a precedent that I would be comfortable with. Many parents may wish to make a similar argument about religious education for example. 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

It's certainly a difficult one. Going against the will of a parent is morally wrong, but allowing parents to interfere with what and what isn't acceptable for their child(ren) to be taught is also a slippery slope. Ultimately though, from my perspective, the best and most effective way to tackle ignorance and hate is through education and if parents were to block that then you could argue that the potentially ignorant views of the parents will go on through their offspring. 

 

 

But that precedent has long been set - parents have always had the right to withdraw their children from sex education classes.

 

2 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

As for your first point - I did assume that was the case, my point was more against Esther McVey in that parents don't always know best when it comes to education and intentionally ignoring topics here and there isn't a precedent that I would be comfortable with. Many parents may wish to make a similar argument about religious education for example. 

 

 

Could you clarify what you mean by this?

 

[Dr The Singh]

1 hour ago, Legend_in_blue said:

McVey appears to be giving it this and that now that she's running for PM.  Not a lot of thought is going into what she's spouting at the minute.  She should stick to TV presenting.

Porno mate, she needs move Into porno.

[Strokes]

16 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

But that precedent has long been set - parents have always had the right to withdraw their children from sex education classes.

 

 

Could you clarify what you mean by this?

 

I don’t take any great umbrage at sex education or LBGT education, providing it is done correctly. However if I didn’t agree with a what my children were being taught (I can’t think of what that might even be), I’d have no hesitation withdrawing them from school.

Edited 30 May 2019 by Strokes

[Buce]

8 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I don’t take any great umbrage at sex education or LBGT education, providing it is done correctly. However if I didn’t agree with a what my children were being taught (I can’t think of what that might even be), I’d have no hesitation withdrawing them from school.

2

 

This is precisely what I mean when I say I'm uncomfortable with the principle of abrogating parents' rights; let's take a hypothetical situation where we had a far right or far left government that wanted to indoctrinate our kids into their beliefs (as in Nazi Germany or modern day Korea). An extreme example, sure, but that's where it could lead once you accept the principle of the state deciding what our children learn, against the will of the parents.

 

Or we could turn the current situation on its head - suppose we had a government that was opposed to Gay relationships and Gay marriage? That isn't even far-fetched as there are plenty of politicians who have those beliefs.

Edited 30 May 2019 by Buce

[David Guiza]

48 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

But that precedent has long been set - parents have always had the right to withdraw their children from sex education classes.

 

 

Could you clarify what you mean by this?

 

Of course, and I'm still not sure how I feel about that. I don't have any children so I perhaps would feel definitely if/when that day comes, but unless the subject was something extreme or indoctrination then I couldn't imagine withdrawing my child from a subject/school. I understand that as a liberal, childless, agnostic guy that's easier to say then it may be if I were in a different demographic. Sex education is so important and can prevent serious knock on events down the line. 

 

Just that I'm sure that there are plenty of parents out there, based on what you see online and hear etc, that would wish to withdraw their child from religious studies because they feel it isn't necessary or doesn't reflect the parents beliefs. But, as with any subject such as the LGBTQ issue, you are withdrawing your child from a chance to learn and understand something different and something that they may not understand/grow up to be ignorant about because they haven't been educated. 

 

As I say though, I don't have children and I'm not of faith etc so it's not always that straightforwards. But in response to what McVey said, I think saying that 'parents know best for their children' isn't always right and there are countless examples of where that isn't the case. Tolerance of difference is a fundamental part of a healthy society, ultimately. 

 

We're all indoctrinated to some extent by our parents and if parents can pick or choose certain elements of their education then that could be detrimental in the long term. Fortunately my Dad just forced being an LCFC fan on me, could have been worse! 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Of course, and I'm still not sure how I feel about that. I don't have any children so I perhaps would feel definitely if/when that day comes, but unless the subject was something extreme or indoctrination then I couldn't imagine withdrawing my child from a subject/school. I understand that as a liberal, childless, agnostic guy that's easier to say then it may be if I were in a different demographic. Sex education is so important and can prevent serious knock on events down the line. 

 

Just that I'm sure that there are plenty of parents out there, based on what you see online and hear etc, that would wish to withdraw their child from religious studies because they feel it isn't necessary or doesn't reflect the parents beliefs. But, as with any subject such as the LGBTQ issue, you are withdrawing your child from a chance to learn and understand something different and something that they may not understand/grow up to be ignorant about because they haven't been educated. 

 

As I say though, I don't have children and I'm not of faith etc so it's not always that straightforwards. But in response to what McVey said, I think saying that 'parents know best for their children' isn't always right and there are countless examples of where that isn't the case. Tolerance of difference is a fundamental part of a healthy society, ultimately. 

 

We're all indoctrinated to some extent by our parents and if parents can pick or choose certain elements of their education then that could be detrimental in the long term. Fortunately my Dad just forced being an LCFC fan on me, could have been worse! 

 

I think I already replied to this in the post above.

[Buce]

 

@David Guiza

 

The point I'm trying to make is that it's easy to take your position in the current debate because it's fairly straightforward from your perspective (and mine, and any progressive thinking person). Imagine, though, a scenario where the government instructs schools to teach our children Creationism or that homosexuality is a sin; we only have to look to the other side of the Atlantic to see this is far from unlikely.

 

That's what becomes possible once you accept the principle that a parent can't choose what their children are taught.

[Dr The Singh]

8 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

@David Guiza

 

The point I'm trying to make is that it's easy to take your position in the current debate because it's fairly straightforward from your perspective (and mine, and any progressive thinking person). Imagine, though, a scenario where the government instructs schools to teach our children Creationism or that homosexuality is a sin; we only have to look to the other side of the Atlantic to see this is far from unlikely.

 

That's what becomes possible once you accept the principle that a parent can't choose what their children are taught.

I don't understand the issue, being made aware of something in a balanced manner and being indoctrined into something is very different.  Being taught the principles of Sikhism or Islam in RE, raises awareness which is only a good thing.  So being taught there is LGBT is a good thing.  People forget LGBT do adopt kids etc, and in fairness LGBT rarely gets discussed.

 

On the other hand, I can see the arguement for it to be optional.

 

But one thing I don't like, is the conviction in the actions against it.

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

I don't understand the issue, being made aware of something in a balanced manner and being indoctrined into something is very different.  Being taught the principles of Sikhism or Islam in RE, raises awareness which is only a good thing.  So being taught there is LGBT is a good thing.  People forget LGBT do adopt kids etc, and in fairness LGBT rarely gets discussed.

 

On the other hand, I can see the arguement for it to be optional.

 

But one thing I don't like, is the conviction in the actions against it.

You might be ok for this but what if they did start teaching things against your beliefs, would you not want to retain the right to have authority?

[Dr The Singh]

Just now, Strokes said:

You might be ok for this but what if they did start teaching things against your beliefs, would you not want to retain the right to have authority?

They do it now, schools teach women and men are equal, which is bullshit, everyone knows pussy power is well more stronger.

 

I'm not sure, there's loads of things that go against Sikhism at school, such as halal meat given to kids without any permission

  British history being taught without real narrative, sex education and sex before marriage and LGBT.  But you have to accept alternative opinions.  As a kid at school we sang xtrian hyms each day, and said prayers.  Ultimately it depends on how it's taught, I use the example of RE, being taught Islam didn't mean I was taught to convert, so teaching a thing called LGBT, doesn't mean you have to be one.

 

As a parent, it's your responsibility upraise your child on your beliefs for example, eating halal meat or drinking alcohol.  These are everyday things that one way or anotber maybe taught, but you as a parent explain why you believe they are right or wrong.  Your job to teach morals, being LGBT, sex before marriage or drinking maybe immoral in many religions, but by law are acceptable, so as a parent it's your job.  School has to represent society, and those things in general are normal.

[David Guiza]

29 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

@David Guiza

 

The point I'm trying to make is that it's easy to take your position in the current debate because it's fairly straightforward from your perspective (and mine, and any progressive thinking person). Imagine, though, a scenario where the government instructs schools to teach our children Creationism or that homosexuality is a sin; we only have to look to the other side of the Atlantic to see this is far from unlikely.

 

That's what becomes possible once you accept the principle that a parent can't choose what their children are taught.

Yeah I get that, if it's something you feel is completely inappropriate and damaging to your child then of course you should be able to remove them from that environment. 

 

In this specific example however all that is being taught is acceptance, tolerance and understanding of something that every child will encounter in their lives and withdrawing a child from that could have a negative effect. 

 

So long as what is being taught remains fact and or balanced then I feel it's right. Parents have so much time to impart their beliefs and theories to their child on a literal daily basis, my wife, as a secondary teacher, could testify that some do I'm sure. Schools have an equal right to teach students academia and the world around them too.

 

If my parents generation or their parents generation had the same education as mine with regard to religious education and the like then there is an argument to be made that tolerance of certain issues would be much higher and hopefully this new initiative will have the same effect for LGBTQ issues. 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Yeah I get that, if it's something you feel is completely inappropriate and damaging to your child then of course you should be able to remove them from that environment. 

 

In this specific example however all that is being taught is acceptance, tolerance and understanding of something that every child will encounter in their lives and withdrawing a child from that could have a negative effect. 

 

So long as what is being taught remains fact and or balanced then I feel it's right. Parents have so much time to impart their beliefs and theories to their child on a literal daily basis, my wife, as a secondary teacher, could testify that some do I'm sure. Schools have an equal right to teach students academia and the world around them too.

 

If my parents generation or their parents generation had the same education as mine with regard to religious education and the like then there is an argument to be made that tolerance of certain issues would be much higher and hopefully this new initiative will have the same effect for LGBTQ issues. 

7

 

Isn't that precisely what these parents believe?

[Dr The Singh]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

Isn't that precisely what these parents believe?

I didn't get that, I got the feeling that it was more damaging for there beliefs.  You can't convert to LGBT but being one is sin against there faith.

[Buce]

Just now, Dr The Singh said:

I didn't get that, I got the feeling that it was more damaging for there beliefs.  You can't convert to LGBT but being one is sin against there faith.

 

I'm pretty sure they would argue that teaching their children something contrary to their religion would be damaging.

 

I don't know enough about Sikhism to think of an example (pardon my ignorance) but would you be happy for your children to be taught something contrary to your religious beliefs?

[Dr The Singh]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

I'm pretty sure they would argue that teaching their children something contrary to their religion would be damaging.

 

I don't know enough about Sikhism to think of an example (pardon my ignorance) but would you be happy for your children to be taught something contrary to your religious beliefs?

LGBT is contrary, Sex before marriage is contrary, they would not make me change the school.  Because we live in a multicultural, and multi and non faith world, and my kids like myself have to accept the world is diverse, which is really healthy for a child.  Like I said, I went to a school where I had to say my christian prayers before we had lunch.  My parents found it bizarre and told me, it something they like to do and I can just respect it .

 

I'm going to controversial, but I'm sure if that school was in Sutton Coldfield, the islamic community would not say a peep.  The area of this school is in a community with a different outlook.

[Dr The Singh]

25 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I'm pretty sure they would argue that teaching their children something contrary to their religion would be damaging.

 

I don't know enough about Sikhism to think of an example (pardon my ignorance) but would you be happy for your children to be taught something contrary to your religious beliefs?

I can imagine evolution, big bang being contrary to there belief, why this?

 

It's a taboo subject to people who haven't been in diverse environments.

[LiberalFox]

I don't know what the laws are on this but I don't see why you should be allowed to remove your children from classes on social issues any more than any other class. 

[Dr The Singh]

I was having a think about this... schools serve pork, talk about evolution, so why the uproar.

 

The answer I believe is conservative opinions on there beliefs, and lack of understanding of LGBT.

 

LGBT is a taboo in that community, as it is full of like minded people, who aren't exposed to such type of people.  The second is fear, that by teaching LGBT will somehow be teaching the kids that being LGBT is ok.  What would be more scary for conservative, religious minded people that there kids may come home one day and say they are gay.  What these people do t understand is that there is no gay switch, you are born gay, it's not a choice......however these people think it is and you have to be hetero 

 

 

[Grebfromgrebland]

You don't really get openly gay Muslims as they'd be ostracized and even killed. 

 

 

[Guest MattP]

Corbyn continually calling for a General Election is starting to look at bit weird.

[Lionator]

If the Lib Dem's moved a tiny bit more to the left (and I think they will with Swinson in charge) then the world is their oyster at the moment. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

I was having a think about this... schools serve pork, talk about evolution, so why the uproar.

 

The answer I believe is conservative opinions on there beliefs, and lack of understanding of LGBT.

 

LGBT is a taboo in that community, as it is full of like minded people, who aren't exposed to such type of people.  The second is fear, that by teaching LGBT will somehow be teaching the kids that being LGBT is ok.  What would be more scary for conservative, religious minded people that there kids may come home one day and say they are gay.  What these people do t understand is that there is no gay switch, you are born gay, it's not a choice......however these people think it is and you have to be hetero 

 

 

I think I've agreed with all your posts on this subject. It's actually really pleasant to see you posting outside of your alter-ego character.  Schools have a curriculum which is and always has been indoctrination. The British education system is magnificent but indoctrinal nonetheless. If parents really don't like it they have the possibility of making their votes count both in a GE and local elcetions and they can speak with the school through its PTA (or whatever it's called these days). It is a parent's job to work alongside the school for education and they should be educating their kids and balancing views they disagree with.

 

In the end I think the furore is ridiculous. The kids will either pay no attention or use the classes as a joke, just like sex education classes we had back in the 70's.

 

Yes the state imposes an Education curriculum on it's people, the people put the state in power, the people choose to live in the country.

 

It is impossible to please all of the people all of the time.

 

 

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Corbyn continually calling for a General Election is starting to look at bit weird.

What wonderful news. I'd love to see the Lib Dems take over after the shambles we've seen in recent times. It would be good if the Greens could actually get a cohesive act together and come second.

[Buce]

11 minutes ago, FIF said:

What wonderful news. I'd love to see the Lib Dems take over after the shambles we've seen in recent times. It would be good if the Greens could actually get a cohesive act together and come second.

 

 

That's not how it works with a fptp system.

 

But then you know that.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

11 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

That's not how it works with a fptp system.

 

But then you know that.

 

Yes - but surprisingly I've seen major news outlets (LBC & Sky News) suggesting this poll would equate to a Lib Dem win at a general election.