The Politics Thread 2019

[Foxin_Mad]

11 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I cant either, I’d be very surprised if a general election solved anything (without any dark arts).

A general election could make things a whole lot worse I think.

 

If all the Brexit Party voters get behind Boris he may get a majority. Which may allow him to get through what he wants

 

We could end up with the other clown in charge on the basis he has now decided he is a remainer, assuming some of the people who switched to the Lib Dems switch back to Labour, however they will likely lose a lot of seats in the midlands and north. I am not entirely sure what Labour 'current' position is on Brexit is it Brexit but a Labour Brexit which is pretty much the same as Mays deal but worse or is it remain?!!?

 

Most likely is a very hung parliament with all parties on an equalish share which pretty much leaves us where we are. 

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

A general election could make things a whole lot worse I think.

 

If all the Brexit Party voters get behind Boris he may get a majority. Which may allow him to get through what he wants

 

We could end up with the other clown in charge on the basis he has now decided he is a remainer, assuming some of the people who switched to the Lib Dems switch back to Labour, however they will likely lose a lot of seats in the midlands and north. I am not entirely sure what Labour 'current' position is on Brexit is it Brexit but a Labour Brexit which is pretty much the same as Mays deal but worse or is it remain?!!?

 

Most likely is a very hung parliament with all parties on an equalish share which pretty much leaves us where we are. 

The only way a general election will solve anything is if there is a deselection process to falsify a house majority, on a particular side of the argument. I think the country being split down the middle would reflect the same in the house.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Strokes said:

The only way a general election will solve anything is if there is a deselection process to falsify a house majority, on a particular side of the argument. I think the country being split down the middle would reflect the same in the house.

Yep. A general election anytime between now and October would be hung like Amon Goeth unless the Brexit Party and Tories were somehow able to come to the mother of all non-interference agreements. To be honest though, I believe that to be entirely plausible.

[RumbleFox]

Does anyone else just find it harder and harder to care these days?  I am fully enganed in being "a decent person" and try to help out with direct action where I can (volunterring, etc) but when it comes to big picture politcs I just find myself being annoyed by everyone to the point of apathy.  I consider myself a leftie but both sides just annoy me so much.  I wonder if it is social media but I feel gaslighted by all sides constantly.  I think there has been a massive rise in being SEEN to be politically active without actually being active at all.  The amount of drivel filled posts from both sides on social media has just had the effect of making them less and less impactful.  Maybe I am just being lazy but all I see is loud mouth people on both sides arguing but never listening whilst most "normal" people seem to have switched off?

[Strokes]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Yep. A general election anytime between now and October would be hung like Amon Goeth unless the Brexit Party and Tories were somehow able to come to the mother of all non-interference agreements. To be honest though, I believe that to be entirely plausible.

Labour and the Lib Dem’s could easily do the same.....It’s a mess.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, RumbleFox said:

Does anyone else just find it harder and harder to care these days?  I am fully enganed in being "a decent person" and try to help out with direct action where I can (volunterring, etc) but when it comes to big picture politcs I just find myself being annoyed by everyone to the point of apathy.  I consider myself a leftie but both sides just annoy me so much.  I wonder if it is social media but I feel gaslighted by all sides constantly.  I think there has been a massive rise in being SEEN to be politically active without actually being active at all.  The amount of drivel filled posts from both sides on social media has just had the effect of making them less and less impactful.  Maybe I am just being lazy but all I see is loud mouth people on both sides arguing but never listening whilst most "normal" people seem to have switched off?

I couldn’t agree more to be honest, the whole thing these days is a massive turn off. I can’t be arsed to watch or read anything on the subject because of how it makes me feel.

[RumbleFox]

Just now, Strokes said:

I couldn’t agree more to be honest, the whole thing these days is a massive turn off. I can’t be arsed to watch or read anything on the subject because of how it makes me feel.

Glad I am not alone.  I kind of hate myself for it but I roll my eyes as much when one of my friends posts a link to/rants about something I actually agree with as much as I do when it's some right wing nobber.  I know so many people that constantly post political stuff on FB and yet, to my knowledge, have never done one thing in the real world (there is nothing wrong in general with spreading messages you agree with online but I have found that peole that do this tend to think it automatically "makes them a good person" and gives them some kind of pass enabling them to judge other people).  I am also so fed up of "my side" judging/stereotyping everyone on the other side as racists or morons that I find myself defending a viewpoint I oppose more often than the one I actually hold.  I've just stepped away completely from it recently.  I know I will get backlash for this but here goes........  I firmly believe that the loudest voices in online political debates have genuine mental health issues.  I just cannae be fecked anymore.  I just keep my head down and hope everything will be OK these days.  X

[Foxin_Mad]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Labour and the Lib Dem’s could easily do the same.....It’s a mess.

I cant see that happening unless Corbyn leaves Labour, Swinson said she wouldn't work with Corbyn. Working with him is one way of making yourself completely unelectable I would say. 

 

If Labour got a decent leader they could easily win a landslide, especially if they came out a proper remain and union party. They probably wont as long as the momentum extremist cretins hold the reigns. 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Foxin_Mad said:

I cant see that happening unless Corbyn leaves Labour, Swinson said she wouldn't work with Corbyn. Working with him is one way of making yourself completely unelectable I would say. 

 

If Labour got a decent leader they could easily win a landslide, especially if they came out a proper remain and union party. They probably wont as long as the momentum extremist cretins hold the reigns. 

I remember the Lib Dem’s saying they wouldn’t raise tuition fees, the prospect of power has the ability to remove certain obstacles.

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

Glad I am not alone.  I kind of hate myself for it but I roll my eyes as much when one of my friends posts a link to/rants about something I actually agree with as much as I do when it's some right wing nobber.  I know so many people that constantly post political stuff on FB and yet, to my knowledge, have never done one thing in the real world (there is nothing wrong in general with spreading messages you agree with online but I have found that peole that do this tend to think it automatically "makes them a good person" and gives them some kind of pass enabling them to judge other people).  I am also so fed up of "my side" judging/stereotyping everyone on the other side as racists or morons that I find myself defending a viewpoint I oppose more often than the one I actually hold.  I've just stepped away completely from it recently.  I know I will get backlash for this but here goes........  I firmly believe that the loudest voices in online political debates have genuine mental health issues.  I just cannae be fecked anymore.  I just keep my head down and hope everything will be OK these days.  X

Both sides are so extreme at the moment, there is little room for middle ground or reasoned debate, it’s quite frightening really.

[Foxin_Mad]

Just now, Strokes said:

I remember the Lib Dem’s saying they wouldn’t raise tuition fees, the prospect of power has the ability to remove certain obstacles.

I could be wrong but I think Corbyn is so toxic only the biggest idiots would ever consider working with him, surely the Lib Dems have learnt form the coalition, which incidentally at the time was the correct thing to do.

[RumbleFox]

6 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Both sides are so extreme at the moment, there is little room for middle ground or reasoned debate, it’s quite frightening really.

It really is and I think this is why I challenge friends that I actually agree with quite often.  I think sometimes they fail to realise that they can come across patronising to a point that the people they actually need to convince (those in the middle not their bubble of circle jerk mates) actually don't listen to what they are trying to say.  The agenda they are trying to push is literally being harmed by their method of support for it.  I dunno, maybe I am part of the problem but I really wish there was a space for nuanced debate.  My feed is so full of "Brexit is stupid and eveyone who voted for it is a Nazi" that I hate my own team these days which is very depressing.  No one ever listens.  I can't remember the last time anyone I know ever saying "I have changed my mind on x".  Certainty is so dangerous.  X

Edited 31 July 2019 by RumbleFox

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

I could be wrong but I think Corbyn is so toxic only the biggest idiots would ever consider working with him, surely the Lib Dems have learnt form the coalition, which incidentally at the time was the correct thing to do.

Is he really anymore toxic than anyone else at the moment? In a world of polarised politics, he looks almost moderate. You can’t side with anyone without getting tarred can you?

[leicsmac]

19 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Labour and the Lib Dem’s could easily do the same.....It’s a mess.

See what you mean, but I'm not sure Labour and the Lib Dems would have enough between them to force an overall majority, though I might be wrong.

 

 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, RumbleFox said:

It really is and I think this is why I challenge friends that I actually agree with quite often.  I think sometimes they fail to realise that they can come across patronising to a point that the people they actually need to convince (those in the middle not their bubble of circle jerk mates) actually don;t listen to what they are trying to say.  The agenda they are trying to push is literally being harmed by their method of support for it.  I dunno, maybe I am part of the problem but I really wish there was a space for nuanced debate.  My feed is so full of "Brexit is stupid and eveyone who voted for it is a Nazi" that I hate my own team these days which is very depressing.  No one ever listens.  I can;t remember the last time anyone I know ever saying "I have changed my mind on x".  Certainty is so dangerous.  X

I’m on the opposite side of the debate feeling exactly the same, the most vocal who support leave on social media unfortunately fall into the racist category because well, they are raving lunatics. You can’t reason with them and they do huge damage to our argument. 

The country has gone mental....

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

See what you mean, but I'm not sure Labour and the Lib Dems would have enough between them to force an overall majority, though I might be wrong.

 

 

Maybe not but they could work towards a remain majority in the house. The conservatives have plenty of remain candidates too. It depends on their end game. Corbyn is far too eurosceptic for this though...

Edited 31 July 2019 by Strokes

[Buce]

26 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Labour and the Lib Dem’s could easily do the same.....It’s a mess.

 

There have been talks about it already. 

 

17 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

I cant see that happening unless Corbyn leaves Labour, Swinson said she wouldn't work with Corbyn. Working with him is one way of making yourself completely unelectable I would say. 

 

She said she wouldn’t form a coalition with Corbyn. An electoral pact is different. 

 

17 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

 

If Labour got a decent leader they could easily win a landslide, especially if they came out a proper remain and union party. They probably wont as long as the momentum extremist cretins hold the reigns. 

 

Corbyn will be gone inside a year, imo. 

[when_you're_smiling]

33 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yep. A general election anytime between now and October would be hung like Amon Goeth unless the Brexit Party and Tories were somehow able to come to the mother of all non-interference agreements. To be honest though, I believe that to be entirely plausible.

Heard from a few on the political grapevine for a few weeks now that this is a very real possibility and heard of evidence it’s being prepared for, complete with the Brexit Party only standing where Tories aren’t expected to win. 

[Buce]

12 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I’m on the opposite side of the debate feeling exactly the same, the most vocal who support leave on social media unfortunately fall into the racist category because well, they are raving lunatics. You can’t reason with them and they do huge damage to our argument. 

The country has gone mental....

 

The referendum was a huge mistake, with hindsight. The EU is far from perfect but Brexit is amputating a leg to cure a bunion. 

Edited 31 July 2019 by Buce

[RumbleFox]

Just now, Strokes said:

I’m on the opposite side of the debate feeling exactly the same, the most vocal who support leave on social media unfortunately fall into the racist category because well, they are raving lunatics. You can’t reason with them and they do huge damage to our argument. 

The country has gone mental....

It really has gone mental.  I remember a moment that really hit home with me........

 

As an Englighman living in Scotland I was here for the Scottish Independence referendum and my initial "gut feeling" was "it seems a shame to break up the union" and I was set on voting No.  It seemed devisive to me I just didn't get it.  At the time I worked for a homeless charity (I am so worthy) and I noticed that everyone who worked there was a Yes voter so I thought maybe I had it wrong as everyone I knew who was a lefty like me was voting Yes.  After lots of research and reading I eventually voted Yes (and would again).  What sturck me as someone who was a genuine swing voter on that paricular matter was that whenever I listened to the Yes campaign I wanted to vote No and whenever I listened to the No campaign I swung back to Yes.  The arguments were so divisive and annoying that they had the exact opposite effect that they intended.  I was approached by one Yes campaigner and asked what I was voiting and I said "probably Yes but have a few reservations" and he then asked me to sign a petition and wear a Yes badge.  I didn't sign, I left without the badge and with my reservations still in tact.  I eventually voted Yes DESPITE the Yes campaign rather than BECAUSE of it.  The moment that really struck was during on of the televised online debates.  An audience member stood up and said something like "I really want to vote Yes but I am worried about the pound".  At this point Salmond went on a rant about how Scotland was great and people worrying about the pound were foolish and scared and he got lots of whoops and cheers from the already converted.  At that moment I knew Yes would lose.  Here was someone who was genuinely on the fence who said he WANTED to vote Yes but needed to be convinced and his question was completely ignored and it descended again itno loud mouth tubthumping from both sides.  This is the exact person they needed to convince and they failed to do so.  Not only did Salmond not really answer his question but he inferred that the guy was either a fool or a coward.

 

I am not sure how/if we can stop it but we're are on a dangerous path.  Maybe I'll run for office?

[Carl the Llama]

Further evidence that the propagandists Cambridge Analytica were closely tied to the leave campaign.

 

But many of the same people who got so angry over the manipulative practices of project fear will continue to shrug their shoulders and pretend everything's fine.  If nothing else, the folk at CA were remarkably efficient.

Edited 31 July 2019 by Carl the Llama

[Foxin_Mad]

23 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Is he really anymore toxic than anyone else at the moment? In a world of polarised politics, he looks almost moderate. You can’t side with anyone without getting tarred can you?

Id say his fairly toxic. He is clearly a liar, he campaigned the last election on leaving, him and his party voted for A50 yet blocked Mays deal because it wasn't a 'Labour Brexit' they should have just got the damn thing in motion, they are as responsible for this mess as the Tories. He has attended all kinds of dodgy events in his time, he is a staunch Brexiteer all his life and now expects us to believe he is a remainer, its laughable. People bring out voting records over Tories they dislike, yet ignore Corbyns record on the EU. 

 

He would destroy our relationship with the US our biggest single nation trading partner and the owner of many of our businesses , has questionable contacts in Russia, Iran and believes their intelligence over our own, he is suggesting a scheme of nationalisation (not permitted under EU law), he protects anti-Semitism because it is a inherent belief of the far left that the Jews are the Evil Rich. He is the mouth piece of Seamus Milne and Momentum, nothing more nothing less.

Edited 31 July 2019 by Foxin_Mad

[Foxin_Mad]

9 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

 

 

Corbyn will be gone inside a year, imo. 

I hope so. I would like to see Labour return more to the centre ground with a new leader but doubt that will happen if Momentum still have their claws in. 

 

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

The referendum was a huge mistake, with hindsight. The EU is far from perfect but Brexit is amputating a leg to cure a bunion. 

This. I am not really sure what we are going to achieve really.

 

Whatever we do now though we just need to decide. All this delay and dithering is making it worse. 

 

We could have been out in March and already suffering the side effects and working to a solution, instead we are still in limbo. 

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Maybe not but they could work towards a remain majority in the house. The conservatives have plenty of remain candidates too. It depends on their end game. Corbyn is far too eurosceptic for this though...

That's certainly possible, though predicting exactly how that might all turn out is difficult.

 

9 minutes ago, when_you're_smiling said:

Heard from a few on the political grapevine for a few weeks now that this is a very real possibility and heard of evidence it’s being prepared for, complete with the Brexit Party only standing where Tories aren’t expected to win. 

Yeah, it's the logical next step for those who want to ensure Brexit happens - they've probably got enough support for it across the country to form the basis of an electoral campaign and come out with a majority should it be handled well.

 

6 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Further evidence that the propagandists Cambridge Analytica were closely tied to the leave campaign.

 

But the same people who got so angry over the manipulative practices of project fear will continue to shrug their shoulders and pretend everything's fine.  If nothing else, the folk at CA were remarkably efficient.

But apparently it's just the latest weapon in electoral politics, everyone uses it (or wants to use it), and that makes it okay.

[leicsmac]

In news elsewhere, more Dem political debates on yesterday and today. Sanders, Warren, Buttigieg, Klobuchar, O'Rourke and a few others were on last night, Biden, Harris, Booker et al to come tonight.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49173804

 

There's a definite divide between what might be called the "establishment" Dems and those who want to shake things up some, and both think their way is the way to beat the Repubs in 2020. To be honest, both sides make reasonable arguments in that regard and it's bloody difficult to tell who might be right.

 

I'm speaking for myself here but I honestly can't see Biden, front-runner that he still is, being the one to defeat Trump and I think it will come down to a straight fight for the nomination between one of him, Harris and Warren.