The Politics Thread 2019

[leicsmac]

21 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Clever stuff isn’t it.  I bet the remain campaign team wish they had thought of this first.

 

Seriously though, this is the present of campaigning and in fact all forms of advertising; to somehow make out this is lying or cheating is bullshit.

 

7 minutes ago, Beechey said:

People shouting bloody murder at people using machine learning and high level data science is genuinely ridiculous.

Fair enough, but this then begs the question of where the line is where such utilisation becomes direct manipulation of people for various purposes?

 

I mean, there's an argument that doing such manipulation has been the preserve of those with power pretty much since the ability to reach multiple people using any kind of platform existed - this is just the latest iteration thereof - but I'm not sure that's a justification for giving it a free pass and thinking that people might, just might, be able to act more ethically towards each other in the future.

[lifted*fox]

Manipulating people to vote a certain way by stealing their data is ok now too? Lol. 

 

Cool, so when your bank account gets emptied because someone illegally buys your details from a data leak; I guess that's fair game as well. You won't be ringing your banks to complain. 

[Carl the Llama]

58 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Clever stuff isn’t it.  I bet the remain campaign team wish they had thought of this first.

 

Seriously though, this is the present of campaigning and in fact all forms of advertising; to somehow make out this is lying or cheating is bullshit.

I suggest you watch the great hack on Netflix. Explains exactly how it's not bullshit to be very concerned about how the campaign was run. 

 

Everybody in this thread should watch it tbh.

[lifted*fox]

2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I suggest you watch the great hack on Netflix. Explains exactly how it's not bullshit to be very concerned about how the campaign was run.

 

It seems proof and facts don't matter to some people any more. Deny, deny, deny.

[Beechey]

41 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I suggest you watch the great hack on Netflix. Explains exactly how it's not bullshit to be very concerned about how the campaign was run. 

 

Everybody in this thread should watch it tbh.

The issue with that was not that they used data science to target adverts though, it was how that data was harvested, and then covered up.

ML and data science in politics has been going on for a while.

Edited 28 July 2019 by Beechey

[Beechey]

1 hour ago, lifted*fox said:

Manipulating people to vote a certain way by stealing their data is ok now too? Lol. 

 

Cool, so when your bank account gets emptied because someone illegally buys your details from a data leak; I guess that's fair game as well. You won't be ringing your banks to complain. 

Firstly, damn fine straw man.

 

Those two things are not remotely comparable. You can't gain access to your friends bank details just by being friends with them.

Cambridge Analytica was able to do what they did because Facebook allows access of friends' data -whatever that user has allowed to be public to their friends, if access is granted.

 

A likely comparison would be you walking down the street screaming at the top of your lungs your bank details, then being shocked when someone accessed your bank.

 

Key point being that access was granted by these users, on Facebook. That's an issue with Facebook as a platform, not the science behind the campaign - or any other campaign using machine learning and data science.

 

Further, this was not a data leak. Facebook was designed this way, it wasn't a hack of any kind.

Edited 28 July 2019 by Beechey

[Mr Mister]

Brexit would be a disaster for Britain. The British people were stupid to vote to leave the EU.

[Bryn]

21 minutes ago, Mr Mister said:

Brexit would be a disaster for Britain. The British people were stupid to vote to leave the EU.

I didnt vote for it, don't lump me in with thick racist people and exploiters. 

[Kopfkino]

45 minutes ago, Beechey said:

The issue with that was not that they used data science to target adverts though, it was how that data was harvested, and then covered up.

ML and data science in politics has been going on for a while.

But that is still an issue. You surely can't say that isn't undermining and an issue for democracy. Granted its just another excuse to ignore actual issues, the legitimate reasons why someone might vote a certain, but as a general point its not a healthy route for democracy to head down. 

 

In fact, it would be useful if people used their energies to oppose it and seek better laws rather than just as a means to an end to deligitimise a specific vote. But what can you do about people with a one track mind. 

[lifted*fox]

Tbh you'll find that the people opposing it to stop Brexit are obviously going to be focused on it as it deals with the imminent issue in hand and any likely outcome will set a precedent for future electoral tampering / crime in the future. 

 

The people who should also be fighting against it are brexiteers - yes it may have worked in their favour this time around but the next time democracy is interfered with it might not give them the result they want and they too will asking questions of a broken / unsecure system. 

 

This is exactly what they want people to be doing. You're spending your time arguing that something was democratic that actually wasn't instead of asking questions about how our own government used underhand tactics to sway democracy. 

 

Divide and conquer. Get the little people fighting each other whilst the rich and powerful escape blame free and with all the money. The doubters will see soon enough and there won't be any further excuses to hide behind. 

Edited 28 July 2019 by lifted*fox

[Beechey]

57 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

But that is still an issue. You surely can't say that isn't undermining and an issue for democracy. Granted its just another excuse to ignore actual issues, the legitimate reasons why someone might vote a certain, but as a general point its not a healthy route for democracy to head down. 

 

In fact, it would be useful if people used their energies to oppose it and seek better laws rather than just as a means to an end to deligitimise a specific vote. But what can you do about people with a one track mind. 

You may see ti an as issue, and that's fine. But it's just a continuation into modern technology of what's been happening for a very long time.

[lifted*fox]

15 minutes ago, Beechey said:

You may see ti an as issue, and that's fine. But it's just a continuation into modern technology of what's been happening for a very long time.

 

It's a continuation of a growing exploit of social media information harvesting by big corporations and governments using that information. 

 

Are you honestly telling me that you have no problem with people filling out seemingly innocent, nonsense surveys on Facebook, oblivious to the fact that their answers will be used to then target them by a political party? 

 

Just because something has been happening and evolving for a long time doesn't make it right and doesn't mean things shouldn't be put in place to stop it happening again. 

Edited 28 July 2019 by lifted*fox

[Beechey]

18 hours ago, lifted*fox said:

 

It's a continuation of a growing exploit of social media information harvesting by big corporations and governments using that information. 

 

Are you honestly telling me that you have no problem with people filling out seemingly innocent, nonsense surveys on Facebook, oblivious to the fact that their answers will be used to then target them by a political party? 

 

Just because something has been happening and evolving for a long time doesn't make it right and doesn't mean things shouldn't be put in place to stop it happening again. 

Firstly, the data goes to Facebook, then from Facebook, to whoever created the application.

People using Facebook should be aware of the policy of that website with regards to data. Everyone should know by now what that company is like, and why they frankly should not be using it.

 

If people who are using Facebook fill these things in, ignoring the Terms and Conditions of the website, then the website (now, presumably) using the data gathered in a legal manner, I have no problem whatsoever. If it is not handled illegally, then I do indeed have an issue with it, of course.

It's no different to you filling in a survey on the street or in a shop. What do you think happens to that data?

 

But with regards to what the data is used for, whether political or not, it doesn't matter to me. Again, Facebook can sell their product to whoever they like as long as it's within the bounds of the law.

But people need to be aware of what exactly Facebook is. It's no longer a social network, it's a data generating, money making machine used for that single purpose.

 

I definitely would not stop the use of big data in advertising and marketing, as it seems you suggest.

That would be a complete disaster for a whole plethora of massive industries.

 

However, in saying this, if Parliament opted to outlaw the use of big data for political purposes, I wouldn't complain either.

Edited 29 July 2019 by Beechey

[urban.spaceman]

Accidental Partridge....

 

 

[Dr The Singh]

17 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Accidental Partridge....

 

 

Not necessary

[BlueSi13]

11 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Well the worry with the first is what is the plan when that happens? I think it's likely the plan is to get parliament to block and go back to the people with a divisive tell them again strategy. But unless the plan is to revert to a Ni-only backstop without the DUP being able to block then surely we're no further forward. 

 

Problem is a significant enough portion of the population and politicians expect the EU to serve the needs of the UK rather than the EU and think that talking at them about proposals with no detail is negotiating and that isn't going change without a change of party in government. 

Parliament now cannot block No Deal.

[BlueSi13]

6 hours ago, Bryn said:

I didnt vote for it, don't lump me in with thick racist people and exploiters. 

Oh joy, the racist card.  Truly enlightening. 

 

But by all means keep throwing it around.  It's a sure-fire way to bring people round to your way of thinking. 

[Stadt]

The racist card will never convert people to a cause, you’re not going to change anybody’s minds by insulting them.

Edited 29 July 2019 by Stadt

[Kopfkino]

10 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

Parliament now cannot block No Deal

No you're assuming that the fact that a PM can choose an election date after October 31st means that No Deal would be allowed through during a campaign. But constitutional convention says that during an election campaign the sitting government cannot bind the hands of a future administration with major policy decisions. The argument for one side says that No Deal is a severe constraint on a future administration so it wouldn't be allowed to happen and the PM would be forced to seek an extension and the argument on the other side would be No Deal is the legal default and so isn't a decision made during the election campaign.

 

Besides you're also throwing all your weight behind a VONC being the only way to prevent No Deal and that parliament has no other tools at its disposal, something that seems hard to believe given the Speaker hasn't been shy in his wish and efforts for parliament to have its say on No Deal.

[Innovindil]

7 hours ago, Bryn said:

I didnt vote for it, don't lump me in with thick racist people and exploiters. 

 

On 27/07/2019 at 12:40, Carl the Llama said:

Were you involved in the pre-referendum thread? Happened to me on a regular basis in there, got very bored of explaining that pointing out a thing's existence isn't the same as saying it's true for everybody.

This is why I was laughing Carl, it's exactly why "it's racist day again" has become a running gag. For every person pointing out that not every brexit voter is racist, there's a dozen mongrels like this. 

 

I've grown up in one of the most multicultural cities in the country, I've never been a racist and I highly doubt I ever would be racist. I've worked, befriended and lived with people from all over the place. Yet I repeatedly get called it (indirectly, but still) on here because I believe in a different ideal. Then people wonder why we get frustrated. 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

 

This is why I was laughing Carl, it's exactly why "it's racist day again" has become a running gag. For every person pointing out that not every brexit voter is racist, there's a dozen mongrels like this. 

 

I've grown up in one of the most multicultural cities in the country, I've never been a racist and I highly doubt I ever would be racist. I've worked, befriended and lived with people from all over the place. Yet I repeatedly get called it (indirectly, but still) on here because I believe in a different ideal. Then people wonder why we get frustrated. 

I can imagine it's tiring, and I'm sure those who voted for Brexit have many different reasons for doing so - not all or probably even not most of them are racists in the terms that most folks would think of and it's wrong to generalise in that way.

 

However...I'm curious to know what that different ideal concerns - if you have the time and the inclination, would you mind elaborating?

[leicsmac]

So, Trump is toying with the idea (and yes, floating an idea on Twitter does count as considering it as policy) of making Antifa a criminal group with all the criminal penalties that entails.

 

Thing is...isn't it already illegal to assault people, if that is such a concern? The only reason for extra legislation that I can see here is to criminalise anti-fascist action itself, wholesale.

[WigstonWanderer]

13 hours ago, Izzy said:

Should have just agreed TMs deal and got on with it really

It would certainly have been less disruptive, but would still means years of free trade negotiations and the UK would still end up worse off in the long run, as a much smaller entity adrift in a very dangerous modern world.

 

The fact is the current arrangements are the best there are available.

[Innovindil]

4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I can imagine it's tiring, and I'm sure those who voted for Brexit have many different reasons for doing so - not all or probably even not most of them are racists in the terms that most folks would think of and it's wrong to generalise in that way.

 

However...I'm curious to know what that different ideal concerns - if you have the time and the inclination, would you mind elaborating?

Cheers for the offer mate, but with how high tensions are running round here atm, I'd rather go balls deep in a big spikey cactus. 

[Buce]

Johnson told no-deal Brexit will crush domestic policy plans

Institute for Government tells PM there is ‘no such thing as a managed no deal’

 

Boris Johnson’s ambitious domestic agenda would be crushed by the pressing needs of the emergency that would follow a no-deal Brexit, a new report by a Whitehall thinktank has concluded.

The Institute for Government (IfG) warned there is “no such thing as a managed no deal” and the hard Brexiters predictions of a “clean break” from the EU will not materialise.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/28/boris-johnson-ifg-no-deal-brexit-crush-domestic-policy-plans