Buce Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 Just now, Strokes said: Quote them, I want the exact phrase. While you’re waiting you could answer my question about Dominic Cummings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 1 hour ago, Voll Blau said: You mean from a hard Brexiter's point of view. You were asked: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?", not "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union and also sack off the Single Market and any Customs Union while they're at it?" Any deal which means we are no longer a member of the European Union would have fulfilled "the will of the people" perfectly well. If Leave voters wanted to be more specific, they should have asked for the referendum to be more specific. In voting for what was on the ballot paper, they'd given their consent to leaving on whichever terms the government of the day wished. As for the "golden ticket". I never thought the EU was perfect and considered voting Leave myself, but it's eminently better than what we appear to be headed for right now. So yeah, I'll try my luck with another Wonka bar rather than give up and accept the chaos of No Deal ta. No, I know what I meant thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 1 hour ago, The Guvnor said: No, I know what I meant thanks. Funny that, because I know Brexiters, some of them good mates, who would have been more than happy with leaving the EU but staying in a Customs Union and the Single Market. Plenty of people who voted Leave favour a soft Brexit, or are you going to tell me that those people didn't know what they were voting for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester_Loyal Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 3 hours ago, weller54 said: Explain what's caused you (or anyone you know) hardship or problems during those 41 years?... I can only see positives by us being part of the EU for that period!.. But I'm sure you'll think of something negative. Are we still doing this 3 years on? As someone has already said there's been plenty of reasons listed, which people like you then ignore. You can only see positives, for others they may only see negatives. I can't get my head around why people don't get that others have different points of views. It's not always black and white or right and wrong. It doesn't mean your own opinion means anymore or less than someone who has a different viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 2 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: Funny that, because I know Brexiters, some of them good mates, who would have been more than happy with leaving the EU but staying in a Customs Union and the Single Market. Plenty of people who voted Leave favour a soft Brexit, or are you going to tell me that those people didn't know what they were voting for? Why are they not speaking up, then? Why are they letting hard leavers do all the talking for their side while any attempt by remainers to point out the dangers of hard brexit is met with derision and accusations of hysteria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 12 minutes ago, Strokes said: But we will get a say on him, when do we get our say on juncker? When you vote for your MEP or head of state. Next question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 5 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: Funny that, because I know Brexiters, some of them good mates, who would have been more than happy with leaving the EU but staying in a Customs Union and the Single Market. Plenty of people who voted Leave favour a soft Brexit, or are you going to tell me that those people didn't know what they were voting for? Conversely I have not met any leavers who would have been 'happy' staying in the CU or SM. As for your last sentence there is no point in voting for anything unless you ' fully understand' all possible outcomes, maybe your mates should have been a little more 'switched on'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Guvnor said: Conversely I have not met any leavers who would have been 'happy' staying in the CU or SM. As for your last sentence there is no point in voting for anything unless you ' fully understand' all possible outcomes, maybe your mates should have been a little more 'switched on'. You're raving about how leaving the EU while staying in a Customs Union and the Single Market is "not leaving the EU" (NEWSFLASH: It is!), and then have the gall to try and lecture about how other voters shouldn't be voting for something unless they fully understand all possible outcomes? Suggest you ought to practice what you preach on that score... Edited 23 August 2019 by Voll Blau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 @Leicester_Loyal I suggest you look into how the Commission President is appointed if that post confused you. Incidentally a new one was recently voted on, I'm not sure whether we were represented by our democratically elected PM or the one whose presence we've had no say on but we would have had someone in the room of people deciding who to suggest to the MEPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 (edited) Act confused about this comment if you have the mental capacity of a toddler. Edited 23 August 2019 by Carl the Llama Fun 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 Something a little different: G7 summit going well, then. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-49443389 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weller54 Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 7 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Something a little different: G7 summit going well, then. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-49443389 No good debating this issue with Boris.. He thinks the amazon is where he buys his underpants from! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 We had the same thing in the environmental thread. Essentially the first world is concerned about deforestation yet Brazil has a populist running the show who sees it as a way to generate wealth. What do you think can happen? If the global community were to impose sanctions on Brazil perhaps that would exert pressure but I can't see the rest of the world agreeing on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 2 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: You're raving about how leaving with the EU while staying in a Customs Union and the Single Market is "not leaving the EU" (NEWSFLASH: It is!), and then have the gall to try and lecture about how other voters shouldn't be voting for something unless they fully understand all possible outcomes? Suggest you ought to practice what you preach on that score... No sorry, once again I really don't see the point you are trying to make. If you voted leave, the end line could be and indeed may be leaving without a deal. Was I really 'Raving' and 'Having the gall to try and lecture people' I don't think so, I will leave that to you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 9 minutes ago, LiberalFox said: We had the same thing in the environmental thread. Essentially the first world is concerned about deforestation yet Brazil has a populist running the show who sees it as a way to generate wealth. What do you think can happen? If the global community were to impose sanctions on Brazil perhaps that would exert pressure but I can't see the rest of the world agreeing on that. Imposing sanctions isn't anyway forward imo. There is real poverty in Brazil and deforestation is a means to an end regarding generation of wealth. There needs to be 'first world' financial incentives to prevent this happening not punitive sanctions. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 8 minutes ago, LiberalFox said: We had the same thing in the environmental thread. Essentially the first world is concerned about deforestation yet Brazil has a populist running the show who sees it as a way to generate wealth. What do you think can happen? If the global community were to impose sanctions on Brazil perhaps that would exert pressure but I can't see the rest of the world agreeing on that. I know what I think should happen, but yeah, sanctions might end up being the best answer that everyone can settle on - maybe. TBH I think this is merely the start of what might be a pretty awful set of conflicts between the right of the nation state to sort resources as it sees fit and the right of the rest of the world to not have the sorting process cause issues for them. I suppose it's been a issue for a while, actually, but the way things are now I think those conflicts might take on a much sharper and more meaningful edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo220 Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 3 minutes ago, The Guvnor said: Imposing sanctions isn't anyway forward imo. There is real poverty in Brazil and deforestation is a means to an end regarding generation of wealth. There needs to be 'first world' financial incentives to prevent this happening not punitive sanctions. Completely agree. if we want to protect the rainforest, incentivise Brazil to look after it and not cut it down. Otherwise, what right has the rest of the world got to tell Brazil what to do with their own trees? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 3 minutes ago, The Guvnor said: Imposing sanctions isn't anyway forward imo. There is real poverty in Brazil and deforestation is a means to an end regarding generation of wealth. There needs to be 'first world' financial incentives to prevent this happening not punitive sanctions. If they want paying off, then fair enough - do it. However do you really expect someone like Bolsanaro, having essentially ransomed the Amazon rainforest, to stop at the first offer and not then keep demanding more? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 4 minutes ago, The Guvnor said: Imposing sanctions isn't anyway forward imo. There is real poverty in Brazil and deforestation is a means to an end regarding generation of wealth. There needs to be 'first world' financial incentives to prevent this happening not punitive sanctions. You're someone I never envisaged agreeing with on anything but this is spot on. If we want poverty stricken countries to preserve 'our' rainforests, we need to pay them to do so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo220 Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 1 minute ago, leicsmac said: If they want paying off, then fair enough - do it. However do you really expect someone like Bolsanaro, having essentially ransomed the Amazon rainforest, to stop at the first offer and not then keep demanding more? just have NGO's/charities buy up all of the logging rights, but dont do any logging? then pay the locals to manage the rainforest rather than chop it down. Bolsanaro gets his cut, but the trees stay standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 1 hour ago, The Guvnor said: No sorry, once again I really don't see the point you are trying to make. If you voted leave, the end line could be and indeed may be leaving without a deal. Was I really 'Raving' and 'Having the gall to try and lecture people' I don't think so, I will leave that to you. And the point I was trying to make was that if you voted leave the end line could be and indeed may be that leaving with a deal which involved remaining in the Single Market and a Customs Union. Both were possible outcomes as the result of a Leave vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 2 minutes ago, Buce said: You're someone I never envisaged agreeing with on anything but this is spot on. If we want poverty stricken countries to preserve 'our' rainforests, we need to pay them to do so. Just now, Tommo220 said: just have NGO's/charities buy up all of the logging rights, but dont do any logging? then pay the locals to manage the rainforest rather than chop it down. Bolsanaro gets his cut, but the trees stay standing. That might be ideal, but again, I don't see him going for it. People like him get off on control. Not having control over the situation and handing it over to someone else is something he won't accept - it's not even really about the money, IMO, it's about power. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 3 minutes ago, Buce said: You're someone I never envisaged agreeing with on anything but this is spot on. If we want poverty stricken countries to preserve 'our' rainforests, we need to pay them to do so. Well there you go Buce, never judge a book by the shite written on FT. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 3 minutes ago, leicsmac said: If they want paying off, then fair enough - do it. However do you really expect someone like Bolsanaro, having essentially ransomed the Amazon rainforest, to stop at the first offer and not then keep demanding more? Carrot and stick, Mac. It's unreasonable of the developed world to have denuded 'our' natural resources, yet expect third world countries to preserve theirs for mankind; we should pay them to do it but ultimately be prepared to make them if they don't. The time for being nice is past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 4 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: And the point I was trying to make was that if you voted leave the end line could be and indeed may be that leaving with a deal which involved remaining in the Single Market and a Customs Union. Both were possible outcomes as the result of a Leave vote. Sorry pal, no disrespect but I've moved on from this now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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