The Politics Thread 2019

[leicsmac]

Democracy is clearly the best system of government that has been tried to the present time...but at no point before has its flaws and the polarisation that results from them have been more apparent.

[Tommo220]

it shouldn't be a case of retiring and waiting to see what happens - being in a minority shouldn't be a reason not to engage in debate - thats what got us in to this situation in the first place.

 

Out of curiosity, those of you guys who are in favour of Brexit - what would you say would be a step too far to achieve Brexit? how much pain do you think is justifiable to achieve the end game? at what point would you personally say "thats a bit much for me - sod it, let's stay"?  There surely has to be a tipping point whereby the problems with the EU are outweighed?

 

 

it isn't a loaded question - just genuinely curious as every other Brexit discussion i've ever had has descended into the usual slanging match!

[Bobby Hundreds]

 

JRM, Farage and Boris' brother will be tumescent! 

Edited 28 August 2019 by Bobby Hundreds

[Tommo220]

10 minutes ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

 

JRM, Farage and Boris' brother will be tumescent! 

nah, they'll just start repatriating some of their overseas cash, and make a killing when the £ bounces back.

[bovril]

42 minutes ago, Tommo220 said:

it shouldn't be a case of retiring and waiting to see what happens - being in a minority shouldn't be a reason not to engage in debate - thats what got us in to this situation in the first place.

 

Out of curiosity, those of you guys who are in favour of Brexit - what would you say would be a step too far to achieve Brexit? how much pain do you think is justifiable to achieve the end game? at what point would you personally say "thats a bit much for me - sod it, let's stay"?  There surely has to be a tipping point whereby the problems with the EU are outweighed?

 

 

it isn't a loaded question - just genuinely curious as every other Brexit discussion i've ever had has descended into the usual slanging match!

I think a lot of Brexit, and modern politics in general, seems to be about pissing off the other side. So people don't care about negative consequences if their side wins. Own the libs, even if it means crashing the economy. 

[Tommo220]

6 minutes ago, bovril said:

I think a lot of Brexit, and modern politics in general, seems to be about pissing off the other side. So people don't care about negative consequences if their side wins. Own the libs, even if it means crashing the economy. 

but surely that cant be the be all and end all for all 50odd% of people who voted for Brexit?  There absolutely has to be some in that volume of people who looked at it, weighed up the options and voted based on what they thought at the time was the best position.  If that is still their opinion, how far would be too far?

 

or am i a crashing bore for trying to look at it logically?!

Edited 28 August 2019 by Tommo220

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

Don't agree with this at all. I believe in brexit, always have, but there's no way it works like this. It's sticking 2 middle fingers up to every remainder instead of trying to bridge the gap. 

 

We've already got the usual softies calling for violence. Don't see how going this route will help. 

This is sense.

 

The polarisation is going to continue until either some kind of amicable resolution is reached between the two sides...or one side or the other is silenced. And whatever method that silencing would take would be ugly.

[bovril]

3 minutes ago, Tommo220 said:

but surely that cant be the be all and end all for all 50odd% of people who voted for Brexit?  There absolutely has to be some in that volume of people who looked at it, weighed up the options and voted based on what they thought at the time was the best position.  If that is still their opinion, how far would be too far?

 

or am i a crashing bore for trying to look at it logically?!

I don't think the majority of Brexiters believe that many of the negative predictions will come true. Or, they don't think they are negative. 

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Tommo220 said:

but surely that cant be the be all and end all for all 50odd% of people who voted for Brexit?  There absolutely has to be some in that volume of people who looked at it, weighed up the options and voted based on what they thought at the time was the best position.  If that is still their opinion, how far would be too far?

 

or am i a crashing bore for trying to look at it logically?!

Sadly, for a lot of people now on both sides, even if it wasn't before, I believe it *is* all about the"fight" and "winning" that fight for them, no matter the consequences.

[Tommo220]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Sadly, for a lot of people now on both sides, even if it wasn't before, I believe it *is* all about the"fight" and "winning" that fight for them, no matter the consequences.

Maybe you're right, but the sad reality is that there wont be a winner.  There will just be a group of people who lose to varying degrees. 

 

Even if you ignore any of the doom and gloom media, whatever happens with Brexit, We will still be a divided country once it's settled, and that is the saddest part.

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, Tommo220 said:

Maybe you're right, but the sad reality is that there wont be a winner.  There will just be a group of people who lose to varying degrees. 

 

Even if you ignore any of the doom and gloom media, whatever happens with Brexit, We will still be a divided country once it's settled, and that is the saddest part.

You're spot on (though I think there's a possibility of an amicable resolution), but this is not a situation where the rationality you speak of plays any part at all in the minds of many.

[Finnaldo]

58 minutes ago, Wortho said:

I quite agree it's great seeing all anti-democrats going apoplectic. Corbyn, Sturgeon, Swinson and Grieve are ones who are trying to prevent democracy. Great fun.

 

'Anti-democratic'. Let's talk through this shall we? Using simple pure fact.

 

2016: we hold a non-binding referendum, which has no legal precedence in future policy other than suggesting public opinion ultimately. Leave win 52-48, a margin one of the prominent Leave campaigners, Nigel Farage suggested there should be a second referendum, as "this would be unfinished business by a long way" (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681) 

 

2017: The general election votes in a narrow Conservative majority based around a soft Brexit with an EU deal. The Hard Brexit UKIP receives 1.8% of the vote. 

 

2019: Following the resignation of May's Cabinet, a Prime Minister voted into office by 92,153 Conservative party members now looks to push through a No Deal Brexit against the wishes of a democratically elected Parliament that was voted in post-referendum by forcing a close-down of Parliament.

 

Would anyone kindly point out how the Brexit opposition is 'anti democratic'? They're representing large chunk of British society (see: democratic election) against a Brexit position that was represented by a party that got 1.8% of the vote in the last election and has been voted in power by 92,153 people and apparently the closure of Parliament is the democratic victory here?

[The Guvnor]

Unlike some posters I'm not revelling in watching posters in meltdown, but pointed ' Its all your fault' questions directed at Brexiteers became a bore fest months ago, as did the thick, knuckle draggers, Little Englander comments, quite frankly those comments are embarrassing, indeed ignorance personified.

We are where we are now and Parliamentarians collectively are responsible for 'where we are now'. This is as a result of a series of consequences including awful negotiating with the EU, of weasel politicians playing stupid fcuking games, those who were trying everything in their power to overturn the leave vote, and those who were trying to vote strategically for their own agenda.

As for certain Politicians now being 'up in arms' , no good crying over spilt milk now, you had 3 years and  two extensions to sort things out , there had to be an end game to this and it looks like for better or worse depending on which lies you believe,  it's now very close.

[Houdini Logic]

I just can't wait until it's over, whatever the outcome, so we can (though probably won't) focus on some real issues. 

[Buce]

23 minutes ago, Houdini Logic said:

I just can't wait until it's over, whatever the outcome, so we can (though probably won't) focus on some real issues. 

 

The problem is that Brexit - particularly a no deal Brexit - will bring its own issues on top of the ones left over from Tory austerity.

 

Everybody knows it but, hey - Brexit means Brexit, right?

[HappyHamza]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Democracy is clearly the best system of government that has been tried to the present time...but at no point before has its flaws and the polarisation that results from them have been more apparent.

Brexit aside, the polarisation comes from our particular brand of democracy: the first past the post system that stops our politicians acting like adults with all the give and take and consensus building that would require.

[bovril]

2 hours ago, Finnaldo said:

 

'Anti-democratic'. Let's talk through this shall we? Using simple pure fact.

 

2016: we hold a non-binding referendum, which has no legal precedence in future policy other than suggesting public opinion ultimately. Leave win 52-48, a margin one of the prominent Leave campaigners, Nigel Farage suggested there should be a second referendum, as "this would be unfinished business by a long way" (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681) 

 

2017: The general election votes in a narrow Conservative majority based around a soft Brexit with an EU deal. The Hard Brexit UKIP receives 1.8% of the vote. 

 

2019: Following the resignation of May's Cabinet, a Prime Minister voted into office by 92,153 Conservative party members now looks to push through a No Deal Brexit against the wishes of a democratically elected Parliament that was voted in post-referendum by forcing a close-down of Parliament.

 

Would anyone kindly point out how the Brexit opposition is 'anti democratic'? They're representing large chunk of British society (see: democratic election) against a Brexit position that was represented by a party that got 1.8% of the vote in the last election and has been voted in power by 92,153 people and apparently the closure of Parliament is the democratic victory here?

Small case in point - what May's government was negotiating was never a "soft Brexit". 

[leicsmac]

18 minutes ago, HappyHamza said:

Brexit aside, the polarisation comes from our particular brand of democracy: the first past the post system that stops our politicians acting like adults with all the give and take and consensus building that would require.

True enough, and there's a lot of that happening out in the wider world too.

 

A political system is built that rewards confrontation and conflict as opposed to cooperation and then some folks are surprised when the confrontation and conflict happens.

[HappyHamza]

4 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

Tbf a Queen's speech is long overdue. 

It's usually a few days between parliamentary sessions. 

 

This is five weeks. 

 

Longest prorogation since 1945.

[Mickey O'Neil]

3 hours ago, Tommo220 said:

it shouldn't be a case of retiring and waiting to see what happens - being in a minority shouldn't be a reason not to engage in debate - thats what got us in to this situation in the first place.

 

Out of curiosity, those of you guys who are in favour of Brexit - what would you say would be a step too far to achieve Brexit? how much pain do you think is justifiable to achieve the end game? at what point would you personally say "thats a bit much for me - sod it, let's stay"?  There surely has to be a tipping point whereby the problems with the EU are outweighed?

 

 

it isn't a loaded question - just genuinely curious as every other Brexit discussion i've ever had has descended into the usual slanging match!

Shortest retirement in FT history!

 

I’ll respond to sensible, non-argumentative questions. 

 

Tommo - ideally I don’t want this. I do want us to exit though. Everyone has had long enough to sort it out but they haven’t. How that’s down to Brexiters, I don’t know. I’m open to having my eyes open.

 

 Nothing would make me change my mind and say “sod it, I’m in”. 

 

On a side note, I didn’t fall for any lies. As soon as I heard about a vote, I’d made my mind up. I didn’t listen to the “for and against “ argument....I decided before everyone stuck their oar in (including Pro-Leave). 

 

[Super_horns]

So what happens now ?

 

Boris and co look to push on for a No deal Brexit or still trying to grind out a deal ..

 

What are the chances of leaving on 31st October .?

[Steven]

1 hour ago, Houdini Logic said:

I just can't wait until it's over, whatever the outcome, so we can (though probably won't) focus on some real issues. 

 

…. a deep recession always focuses the mind. Recession will probably happen anyway as it is hard to see how the UK economy has grown during this quarter.

 

Edited 28 August 2019 by Steven

[weller54]

1 hour ago, Houdini Logic said:

I just can't wait until it's over, whatever the outcome, so we can (though probably won't) focus on some real issues. 

It will never be over!. 

Do you honestly think that the majority of sensible people in this Country are going to just accept the no deal forced upon them by a Dictatorship come 31st October?... 

The 1st November will be the start of the 'Rejoin the EU campaign'.. Many more years of uncertainty and campaigning to come. 

[Tommo220]

7 minutes ago, Mickey O'Neil said:

Shortest retirement in FT history!

 

I’ll respond to sensible, non-argumentative questions. 

 

Tommo - ideally I don’t want this. I do want us to exit though. Everyone has had long enough to sort it out but they haven’t. How that’s down to Brexiters, I don’t know. I’m open to having my eyes open.

 

 Nothing would make me change my mind and say “sod it, I’m in”. 

 

On a side note, I didn’t fall for any lies. As soon as I heard about a vote, I’d made my mind up. I didn’t listen to the “for and against “ argument....I decided before everyone stuck their oar in (including Pro-Leave). 

 

So there is absolutely NOTHING that could change your mind to stay in? 

 

Do you mind me asking what it was that made your mind up on day one?  

 

If there was a change in government tomorrow that stated as part of their manifesto that they would commit to a longer term Brexit - next 10 years or so but most of the negatives would be mitigated, would you vote for that, or are you of the opinion just to sod the lot and get out?

 

Personally, i voted to remain because i didn't think the upheaval and uncertainty was worth what we would actually get back.   Even now, i (personally) just can't see how what we are going to gain, is worth what we have to give up for it.

[David Guiza]

I can't even comprehend some of the comments in here anymore, Brexit has turned some into awful people, or perhaps just enabled their arrogance and pigheadedness to rear it's ugly head.

 

I've got nothing against those who want to see Brexit happen because they believe that we will thrive as a nation and indivual citizens afterwards, those who have genuine and substantiated gripes against the EU. I am fully aware that both sides of the poisoned chalice have their flaws, but what I cannot comprehend is those who would seemingly happily set fire to their house if it meant their neighbours burnt too.