ithuriel Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: Exactly, it's accommodated members - not those who are planning to leave it. I think that's the difference. Why would the EU show any deference to a member nation who has begun the process of leaving their club? Because negotiating is something they would have to do anyway and we were still a member until articles were enacted. Myself, with all the troubles the EU had, still has? at the time with countries on the verge of doing a Greece, I think they just wanted to go hardball and wanted to make things as difficult as they could so anyone else thinking of leaving would be put off or they were hoping for a very soft Brexit and a rejoin vote a decade down the line. Not that any speculation matters now, Boris is in charge with his biff baff bat, I dunno, life just seems so much like a Monty Python sketch these days. Edited 23 August 2019 by ithuriel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weller54 Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, ithuriel said: Because negotiating is something they would have to do anyway and we were still a member until articles were enacted. Myself, with all the troubles the EU had, still has? at the time with countries on the verge of doing a Greece, I think they just wanted to go hardball and wanted to make things as difficult as they could so anyone else thinking of leaving would be put off or they were hoping for a very soft Brexit and a rejoin vote a decade down the line. IF we leave on the 31st October the rejoin campaign will start in earnest on the 1st November!.... Because... Wait for it.... It's the will of the people! Edited 23 August 2019 by weller54 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ithuriel said: Because negotiating is something they would have to do anyway and we were still a member until articles were enacted. Myself, with all the troubles the EU had, still has? at the time with countries on the verge of doing a Greece, I think they just wanted to go hardball and wanted to make things as difficult as they could so anyone else thinking of leaving would be put off or they were hoping for a very soft Brexit and a rejoin vote a decade down the line. But we did invoke Article 50? I don't doubt that some of what you say is the case in terms of their negotiating stance, but I also think a) they didn't expect us to go *quite* this insane in terms of the damage we appear to be willing to do to ourselves if we don't get *exactly* all of the things Leave voters were promised (which, spoiler alert, they were never going to get), and b) It's tough shit if people can't realise the bargaining power of almost 30 nations was always going to be greater than that of one. They don't have to be nice to us because we're the ones kicking the toys out of the pram and threatening to do untold damage to many of our own people if we don't get our own way. I see a few Leave voters say they'd rather not be part of a bloc with an attitude like that. Well fine, but it's an attitude many seem to be happy for our own government to have in terms of the "Germany need us to buy their cars so they'll cave in" type stance people want to take? We're about to find out just how cold it'll get when we're outside the tent pissing in. Hope it's worth it lads... Edited 23 August 2019 by Voll Blau 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ithuriel Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 1 minute ago, weller54 said: IF we leave on the 31st October the rejoin campaign will start in earnest on the 1st November!.... Because... What for it.... It's the will of the people! Nothing wrong with that, and it is wait for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 39 minutes ago, weller54 said: IF we leave on the 31st October the rejoin campaign will start in earnest on the 1st November!.... Because... Wait for it.... It's the will of the people! How about giving it 41 years so at least we have a bit of parity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 So there will have to be a hard border in Ireland, because otherwise those foreigners will be able to enter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weller54 Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 12 minutes ago, The Guvnor said: How about giving it 41 years so at least we have a bit of parity. Explain what's caused you (or anyone you know) hardship or problems during those 41 years?... I can only see positives by us being part of the EU for that period!.. But I'm sure you'll think of something negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bovril Posted 23 August 2019 Popular Post Share Posted 23 August 2019 21 minutes ago, The Guvnor said: How about giving it 41 years so at least we have a bit of parity. If hard Brexit turns out to be half as bad as the worst case scenarios, people won't be waiting 41 years. This is what I don't understand about Brexiters. They could have gone for a soft Brexit and said, there you go, a bit of Brexit never hurt anyone. But their cultish insistence on a pure Brexit will totally destroy any moderate Euroscepticism in this country. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 15 minutes ago, ozleicester said: So there will have to be a hard border in Ireland, because otherwise those foreigners will be able to enter? It’s more a case of customs checks. It’s the only way the EU can ensure that goods conform to their standards ie they won’t be wanting to admit chlorinated chicken we’ve imported from the Yanks. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, bovril said: ,If hard Brexit turns out to be half as bad as the worst case scenarios, people won't be waiting 41 years. This is what I don't understand about Brexiters. They could have gone for a soft Brexit and said, there you go, a bit of Brexit never hurt anyone. But their cultish insistence on a pure Brexit will totally destroy any moderate Euroscepticism in this country. This is nothing to do with 'point scoring' FFS . By soft brexit I suppose you mean staying in the SM and CU well no matter how you spin it that's not leaving the EU from a Brexiteers point of view. Look, the reasons for wanting to leave have been discussed on here in depth for the past 3 years, so raking over that ground is fcuking pointless. I do get it however that passions are running high as the suspected leave date draws closer, and I do empathise with remainers, believe it or not, who feel their golden ticket is blowing away in the wind. Edited 23 August 2019 by The Guvnor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 We could have left in march, we'd negotiated the minimum to avoid chaos and lay the foundations for future negotiation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brizzle Fox Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 1 hour ago, The Guvnor said: This is nothing to do with 'point scoring' FFS . By soft brexit I suppose you mean staying in the SM and CU well no matter how you spin it that's not leaving the EU from a Brexiteers point of view. Look, the reasons for wanting to leave have been discussed on here in depth for the past 3 years, so raking over that ground is fcuking pointless. I do get it however that passions are running high as the suspected leave date draws closer, and I do empathise with remainers, believe it or not, who feel their golden ticket is blowing away in the wind. Sorry being a but dense here but what do you mean by your last sentence? What is this golden ticket you refer to that only remainers have been privy to and benefited from, as I'm concerned I may have missed out somehow? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 1 hour ago, The Guvnor said: This is nothing to do with 'point scoring' FFS . By soft brexit I suppose you mean staying in the SM and CU well no matter how you spin it that's not leaving the EU from a Brexiteers point of view. Look, the reasons for wanting to leave have been discussed on here in depth for the past 3 years, so raking over that ground is fcuking pointless. I do get it however that passions are running high as the suspected leave date draws closer, and I do empathise with remainers, believe it or not, who feel their golden ticket is blowing away in the wind. You mean from a hard Brexiter's point of view. You were asked: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?", not "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union and also sack off the Single Market and any Customs Union while they're at it?" Any deal which means we are no longer a member of the European Union would have fulfilled "the will of the people" perfectly well. If Leave voters wanted to be more specific, they should have asked for the referendum to be more specific. In voting for what was on the ballot paper, they'd given their consent to leaving on whichever terms the government of the day wished. As for the "golden ticket". I never thought the EU was perfect and considered voting Leave myself, but it's eminently better than what we appear to be headed for right now. So yeah, I'll try my luck with another Wonka bar rather than give up and accept the chaos of No Deal ta. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 4 hours ago, Buce said: Like when we elect a new PM, for instance? The PM was elected by a constituency like any other PM past or present. I don’t see you complaining about lack of democracy when an EU commissioner gets elected. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 11 minutes ago, Strokes said: The PM was elected by a constituency like any other PM past or present. I don’t see you complaining about lack of democracy when an EU commissioner gets elected. He didn't demand full democratic control, you did, I suspect Buce understands that such a thing is impossible to achieve. Are you in Boris' constituency? If not then I have some bad news about the amount of democratic control you had over him becoming PM. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Buce Posted 23 August 2019 Popular Post Share Posted 23 August 2019 24 minutes ago, Strokes said: The PM was elected by a constituency like any other PM past or present. I don’t see you complaining about lack of democracy when an EU commissioner gets elected. So we inflict economic suicide on ourselves in order to swap one undemocratic institution for another? And remind me - which constituency elected Dominic Cummings? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 17 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: He didn't demand full democratic control, you did, I suspect Buce understands that such a thing is impossible to achieve. Are you in Boris' constituency? If not then I have some bad news about the amount of democratic control you had over him becoming PM. I didn’t demand full democratic control of the PM, just the government. Which we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 4 minutes ago, Buce said: So we inflict economic suicide on ourselves in order to swap one undemocratic institution for another? And remind me - which constituency elected Dominic Cummings? Is it economic suicide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grebfromgrebland Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 1 minute ago, Strokes said: Is it economic suicide? Might not turn out to be economic suicide but definitely not good from a social perspective. It's like we want to go back to Edwardian times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 Just now, Strokes said: I didn’t demand full democratic control of the PM, just the government. Which we have. Obviously we don't though if we don't even have democratic control over the government's lead figure! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weller54 Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 12 minutes ago, Strokes said: Is it economic suicide? Depends on who you believe.. Tim Martin the drunk who runs Wetherspoons.. Or The Governor of The Bank of England The CBI The Head of the EMF FTSE 100 CEO 's Etc? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 5 hours ago, Strokes said: So that it is answerable to electorate for full democratic control by the people. Thank you. However, and sorry for prattling on here, but since when has the entirety of the UK electorate really had such full unmitigated democratic control anyway and (I might cop some flak for this) since when has that always been a entirely desirous thing in terms of outcomes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 7 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: Obviously we don't though if we don't even have democratic control over the government's lead figure! But we will get a say on him, when do we get our say on juncker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 23 August 2019 Share Posted 23 August 2019 4 minutes ago, weller54 said: Depends on who you believe.. Tim Martin the drunk who runs Wetherspoons.. Or The Governor of The Bank of England The CBI The Head of the EMF FTSE 100 CEO 's Etc? Quote them, I want the exact phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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