The Politics Thread 2019

[Jon the Hat]

6 minutes ago, weller54 said:

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

We rest our case. 

You don’t have a case.

[Lionator]

33 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You don’t have a case.

I have a case for why we should stay in the European Union. Free movement, shared intelligence, single market, academic opportunity etc.

 

What's your case for leaving the European Union?

Edited 22 August 2019 by Lionator

[BlueSi13]

13 minutes ago, Lionator said:

I have a case for why we should stay in the European Union. Free movement, shared intelligence, single market, academic opportunity etc.

 

What's your case for leaving the European Union?

Regain complete sovereign control over our laws, borders and trade and to leave a declining and increasingly protectionist project fixated on the medium/long term goal of full political, economic and defensive "Union" (there was and is never a status-quo or reform option with the EU).  In other words, the same case that was presented in 2016.  

 

Now all we Brexiters can do is wait for the 1st of November and see if this has been delivered.  Current polling suggests the new government is on the right path.

 

 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, BlueSi13 said:

Regain complete sovereign control over our laws, borders and trade and to leave a declining and increasingly protectionist project fixated on the medium/long term goal of full political, economic and defensive "Union" (there was and is never a status-quo or reform option with the EU).  In other words, the same case that was presented in 2016.  

 

Now all we Brexiters can do is wait for the 1st of November and see if this has been delivered.  Current polling suggests the new government is on the right path.

 

 

Thank you for the explanation, and I mean that.

 

May I ask a further question here: why, to you, is 100% unilateral control of the above by the UK so important?

 

I'm genuinely looking for understanding here so if you'll indulge me, I'd be grateful.

[ithuriel]

There was a vote, its done, living in the past is not going to change that fact.

As for how we leave, well, almost our entire political elite would struggle to run a brothel competently, if Guy Fawkes were around today crowd funding would get him his explosives within minutes 

[ozleicester]

has any party promised a new vote should they be elected, i can see this being the plan for the next 20 years...

 

Year one - Promise new vote

Year two - get elected

Year 3 - plan vote

year 4 hold vote

Year 5 argue about how they cant implement decision.

Year 6 promise new vote

 

 

 

 

[weller54]

4 hours ago, ithuriel said:

There was a vote, its done, living in the past is not going to change that fact.

As for how we leave, well, almost our entire political elite would struggle to run a brothel competently, if Guy Fawkes were around today crowd funding would get him his explosives within minutes 

I voted remain in 1975 along with 67% of the UK.. I haven't changed my mind. 

How about respecting that referendum? 

[weller54]

7 hours ago, BlueSi13 said:

Regain complete sovereign control over our laws, borders and trade and to leave a declining and increasingly protectionist project fixated on the medium/long term goal of full political, economic and defensive "Union" (there was and is never a status-quo or reform option with the EU).  In other words, the same case that was presented in 2016.  

 

Now all we Brexiters can do is wait for the 1st of November and see if this has been delivered.  Current polling suggests the new government is on the right path.

 

 

..... to oblivion. 

[Strokes]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Thank you for the explanation, and I mean that.

 

May I ask a further question here: why, to you, is 100% unilateral control of the above by the UK so important?

 

I'm genuinely looking for understanding here so if you'll indulge me, I'd be grateful.

So that it is answerable to electorate for full democratic control by the people.

[Buce]

22 minutes ago, Strokes said:

So that it is answerable to electorate for full democratic control by the people.

 

Like when we elect a new PM, for instance?

[Grebfromgrebland]

The sad thing about this is that brexiteers actually trust a UK government to do what's best for it's people. It's like they're happy to have poor employment rights, sewage on the beaches and in rivers, poor air to breathe and pretty much everything else being worse, but it will be ok as that's what's chosen for us by a UK government.

 

You do know that most of what's good about the UK has been forced upon us by the EU? 

[ithuriel]

1 hour ago, weller54 said:

I voted remain in 1975 along with 67% of the UK.. I haven't changed my mind. 

How about respecting that referendum? 

Well, if you want to respect referendums that happened decades ago, that's fine, the EEC changing into the EU, expanding and changing should mean peeps do not get a say in things ever again no more voting for anything is required, of course we could have a vote every 3 years on whether to stay or leave and if the vote does not go your way, ignore it.

I voted to leave but would have respected the remain vote if it won, seems a large part of the peeps that voted remain only believe in democracy when it goes their way

Edited 23 August 2019 by ithuriel

[The Guvnor]

1 hour ago, weller54 said:

I voted remain in 1975 along with 67% of the UK.. I haven't changed my mind. 

How about respecting that referendum? 

It was respected for 41 years. And on reflection of those years a decision was made to leave. Seems reasonable to me.

[Voll Blau]

11 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Oh good god I wonder why I read this thread sometimes.  Still three years later remainers have no clue or even interest in why the majority of the nation wants nothing to do the European Union.  

Ah, that reminds me. Still waiting for you to provide me with some proof that Leave campaigners have been offering up effective and practical solutions to the government for all the problems their project has meant we now face.

 

In your own time. 

[weller54]

11 minutes ago, ithuriel said:

Well, if you want to respect referendums that happened decades ago, that's fine, the EEC changing into the EU, expanding and changing should mean peeps do not get a say in things ever again no more voting for anything is required, of course we could have a vote every 3 years on whether to stay or leave and if the vote does not go your way, ignore it.

I voted to leave but would have respected the remain vote if it won, seems a large part of the peeps that voted remain only believe in democracy when it goes their way

How about if the referendum campaign is based upon lies? 

Do you vote in General elections every 5 years?.. If so are you allowed to change your mind as new information comes to light over that period?.. If you do.. That's democracy right there for you! 

 

[ithuriel]

Just now, weller54 said:

How about if the referendum campaign is based upon lies? 

Do you vote in General elections every 5 years?.. If so are you allowed to change your mind as new information comes to light over that period?.. If you do.. That's democracy right there for you! 

 

So you do want a vote every few years and you suspect that everyone voted believing extra funding for the NHS, good for you.

[weller54]

18 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

It was respected for 41 years. And on reflection of those years a decision was made to leave. Seems reasonable to me.

Absolutely nothing to do with reflection on 41 years of being part of the EU... 

Cameron called a referendum to save his and the Tories own necks! 

It backfired as parts of the Country used it as a protest vote. eg Sunderland... Worked out well for them hasn't it! 

[ithuriel]

8 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Ah, that reminds me. Still waiting for you to provide me with some proof that Leave campaigners have been offering up effective and practical solutions to the government for all the problems their project has meant we now face.

 

In your own time. 

Myself, I could never understand why the EU never came back and discussed changes to accommodate the UK that might have meant a second vote but what has scared me is the total incompetence of those that currently inhabit Parliament, none of them has a clue it seems.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, ithuriel said:

Well, if you want to respect referendums that happened decades ago, that's fine, the EEC changing into the EU, expanding and changing should mean peeps do not get a say in things ever again no more voting for anything is required, of course we could have a vote every 3 years on whether to stay or leave and if the vote does not go your way, ignore it.

I voted to leave but would have respected the remain vote if it won, seems a large part of the peeps that voted remain only believe in democracy when it goes their way

I think the vast majority of Remainers were respectful of the result at first and were hopeful this could work somehow, but in my case I'm now completely at the end of my tether with this bollocks. How can anyone at this stage still justify this project as being in the national interest knowing what we know now, and seeing what's happening around us?

 

Nigel Farage wasn't exactly respectful on the night of the referendum either. He said before the vote, and on TV about 10 minutes after the polls closed, that a 52-48 result in favour of Remain would mean "unfinished business". Sounds to me like he only believes in democracy when it goes his way...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, ithuriel said:

Myself, I could never understand why the EU never came back and discussed changes to accommodate the UK that might have meant a second vote but what has scared me is the total incompetence of those that currently inhabit Parliament, none of them has a clue it seems.

Because its job has never been to accommodate us. Like it or not, the EU is there to look out for its members and no-one else - certainly not those planning to leave it. We already had a cushy deal as it was (not being part of Schengen etc). Now we've been offered a deal which means we don't get all the benefits of being in the club, and people are surprised by that?

[ithuriel]

2 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

I think the vast majority of Remainers were respectful of the result at first and were hopeful this could work somehow, but in my case I'm now completely at the end of my tether with this bollocks. How can anyone at this stage still justify this project as being in the national interest knowing what we know now, and seeing what's happening around us?

 

Nigel Farage wasn't exactly respectful on the night of the referendum either. He said before the vote, and on TV about 10 minutes after the polls closed, that a 52-48 result in favour of Remain would mean "unfinished business". Sounds to me like he only believes in democracy when it goes his way...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

Farage was and is a joke, he must have pooped himself when the vote went leave because he lost all relevance, well, he would have if our political elite had not made such a mess of things.

[The Guvnor]

8 minutes ago, weller54 said:

Absolutely nothing to do with reflection on 41 years of being part of the EU... 

Cameron called a referendum to save his and the Tories own necks! 

It backfired as parts of the Country used it as a protest vote. eg Sunderland... Worked out well for them hasn't it! 

Well that's one way of spinning it.

[ithuriel]

Just now, Voll Blau said:

Because its job has never been to accommodate us. Like it or not, the EU is there to look out for its members and no-one else - certainly not those planning to leave it. We already had a cushy deal as it was (not being part of Schengen etc). Now we've been offered a deal which means we don't get all the benefits of being in the club, and people are surprised by that?

When monetary union was being bandied around some countries voted no, then revoted yes after changes were made so it can and has accommodated members before, the EU never even tried negotiating, maybe Farage annoyed them with his antics but they just kind of went, ok, bye.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, ithuriel said:

When monetary union was being bandied around some countries voted no, then revoted yes after changes were made so it can and has accommodated members before, the EU never even tried negotiating, maybe Farage annoyed them with his antics but they just kind of went, ok, bye.

Exactly, it's accommodated members - not those who are planning to leave it. I think that's the difference. Why would the EU show any deference to a member nation who has begun the process of leaving their club?

[bovril]

9 hours ago, BlueSi13 said:

Regain complete sovereign control over our laws, borders and trade and to leave a declining and increasingly protectionist project fixated on the medium/long term goal of full political, economic and defensive "Union" (there was and is never a status-quo or reform option with the EU).  In other words, the same case that was presented in 2016.  

 

Now all we Brexiters can do is wait for the 1st of November and see if this has been delivered.  Current polling suggests the new government is on the right path.

 

 

And complete control of borders includes, I suppose, the one on the island of Ireland?