The Politics Thread 2019

[Jon the Hat]

I can barely read this thread anymore it’s so ridiculous.  Boris wants a deal.  Everything he is doing is to that end.  It really isn’t that hard to understand.

[HappyHamza]

10 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I can barely read this thread anymore it’s so ridiculous.  Boris wants a deal.  Everything he is doing is to that end.  It really isn’t that hard to understand.

The EU have said they'll make the amendment of he comes up with a workable alternative to the backstop.  Where is it?

 

 

[Jon the Hat]

19 minutes ago, HappyHamza said:

The EU have said they'll make the amendment of he comes up with a workable alternative to the backstop.  Where is it?

Oh dear.  You don't understand this at all do you?  The backstop has nothing to do with the fantasy hard border in Ireland, and everything to do with blocking Brexit and keeping the UK in the customs union and stopping us negotiating trade deals.  So the EU will continue to refuse anything suggested fo the border.  Until they finally realise Boris has the power and not the commons, not the remainers.  That is what this is all about, and once you see events through that lens, understand that all of this is a message to the EU leaders, you will start to understand Boris and Cummins strategy to get a deal.

[Dr The Singh]

Why is it HK gets far more coverage then Kashmir, Kashmir has over half a million military, and far worse human rights violation then HK.  Britain created this mess just and much as HK

[Jon the Hat]

59 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

Why is it HK gets far more coverage then Kashmir, Kashmir has over half a million military, and far worse human rights violation then HK.  Britain created this mess just and much as HK

Time factor I guess.

[Grebfromgrebland]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

I can barely read this thread anymore it’s so ridiculous.  Boris wants a deal.  Everything he is doing is to that end.  It really isn’t that hard to understand.

If you think Boris wants a deal you're a moron. Sorry. Boris 100% does not want a deal.

 

He wants to pretend that he wants a deal so that when we don't get a deal he can blame everyone else, ie. the EU, remain politicians, biased media and anyone else.

 

The narrative is already set. Anyone with critical thinking can see it.

 

Look at what he says, think about what he means and think about how things will play out.

 

The EU will protect its member states and that includes Ireland. It won't allow the UK to smuggle in goods through to the EU via Northern Ireland simple as. 

[Jon the Hat]

Just now, Grebfromgrebland said:

If you think Boris wants a deal you're a moron. Sorry. Boris 100% does not want a deal.

 

He wants to pretend that he wants a deal so that when we don't get a deal he can blame everyone else, ie. the EU, remain politicians, biased media and anyone else.

 

The narrative is already set. Anyone with critical thinking can see it.

 

Look at what he says, think about what he means and think about how things will play out.

 

The EU will protect its member states and that includes Ireland. It won't allow the UK to smuggle in goods through to the EU via Northern Ireland simple as. 

You couldn’t be more wrong. 

[HappyHamza]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Oh dear.  You don't understand this at all do you?  The backstop has nothing to do with the fantasy hard border in Ireland, and everything to do with blocking Brexit and keeping the UK in the customs union and stopping us negotiating trade deals.  So the EU will continue to refuse anything suggested fo the border.  Until they finally realise Boris has the power and not the commons, not the remainers.  That is what this is all about, and once you see events through that lens, understand that all of this is a message to the EU leaders, you will start to understand Boris and Cummins strategy to get a deal.

I suppose if you have brexit coloured lenses it that would make sense.

 

But a few other points to ponder:

 

1- the backstop was a British creation

 

2- the eu didn't want us to have access to the single market without freedom of movement which the backstop entails

 

3- border checks on Ireland would be a mandatory requirement of wto rules

 

4- the eu haven't rejected any detailed alternative plans. Nobody has ever come up with what these plans are. If the plans existed in workable detail and the government really wanted a deal then we'd know what that detail was because making it public would be the best way to put the eu on the back foot 

 

5- there is no excuse for the utter disrespect boris is giving parliamentary democracy and anybody arguing for prorogation is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

[Jon the Hat]

Just now, HappyHamza said:

I suppose if you have brexit coloured lenses it that would make sense.

 

But a few other points to ponder:

 

1- the backstop was a British creation

 

2- the eu didn't want us to have access to the single market without freedom of movement which the backstop entails

 

3- border checks on Ireland would be a mandatory requirement of wto rules

 

4- the eu haven't rejected any detailed alternative plans. Nobody has ever come up with what these plans are. If the plans existed in workable detail and the government really wanted a deal then we'd know what that detail was because making it public would be the best way to put the eu on the back foot 

 

5- there is no excuse for the utter disrespect boris is giving parliamentary democracy and anybody arguing for prorogation is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I’ll just address your last point as I’m tired.  This is the longest parliamentary session in recent history, and the prorogation is a week longer than the usual conference season break.  It’s not a coup, it isn’t blocking parliament from calling a vote of no confidence or anything else.  It’s a message to the EU and nothing else.

[Jon the Hat]

One more then.  Unfortunately we’ve have a government who were confused in their objectives for the past three years.  The fact that the backstop cane from the UK doesn’t make it any less shit.

[Jon the Hat]

Ok, again who is going to build border infrastructure in Ireland?  The uk isn’t, Ireland isn’t.  Yes we might have a ten year legal case about it, but so what? Unless the EU army invaded Ireland there won’t be a hard border.  Yes that was a joke.

[Jon the Hat]

On point 4, the EU isn’t interested as I said because the backstop is sod all to do with Irish border.

Edited 31 August 2019 by Jon the Hat

[Dr The Singh]

21 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Time factor I guess.

Both happening now my friend?

[HappyHamza]

10 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I’ll just address your last point as I’m tired.  This is the longest parliamentary session in recent history, and the prorogation is a week longer than the usual conference season break.  It’s not a coup, it isn’t blocking parliament from calling a vote of no confidence or anything else.  It’s a message to the EU and nothing else.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why Johnson cannot prologue AFTER the end of October. 

 

To do it now is so obviously a complete abuse of power that I honestly can't believe I'm having to state it because somebody is in denial.

[Jon the Hat]

14 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

Both happening now my friend?

HK is more recent history for the British people I mean.  

[Jon the Hat]

14 minutes ago, HappyHamza said:

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why Johnson cannot prologue AFTER the end of October. 

 

To do it now is so obviously a complete abuse of power that I honestly can't believe I'm having to state it because somebody is in denial.

What do you think it is stopping  exactly? 

Edited 31 August 2019 by Jon the Hat

[Dr The Singh]

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

HK is more recent history for the British people I mean.  

I think.its more political, there is loads historical and recent evidence of india's influence on our media, research it.

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Who is going to build a hard border?

...so the idea is expecting that the EU is bluffing, won't put in the effort themselves to enforce a hard border, and that they will make a special exception to their own fundamental rules and just let the whole matter be, right?

 

Fair enough. Brinksmanship at its finest.

Edited 1 September 2019 by leicsmac

[Donk]

6 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

I can barely read this thread anymore it’s so ridiculous.  Boris wants a deal.  Everything he is doing is to that end.  It really isn’t that hard to understand.

 

5 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Oh dear.  You don't understand this at all do you?  The backstop has nothing to do with the fantasy hard border in Ireland, and everything to do with blocking Brexit and keeping the UK in the customs union and stopping us negotiating trade deals.  So the EU will continue to refuse anything suggested fo the border.  Until they finally realise Boris has the power and not the commons, not the remainers.  That is what this is all about, and once you see events through that lens, understand that all of this is a message to the EU leaders, you will start to understand Boris and Cummins strategy to get a deal.

If you wanted a deal why would you spend £2.1 billion preparing for no deal?

 

Why not just work towards a deal?

 

(Answer is to keep the rabid ideological cult brexit element quiet)

 

But its a totally unnecesssary waste of money then if boris wants a deal

 

Its not a case of using walking away as a tactic to secure a better deal either. Thats totally illogical

[Grebfromgrebland]

The only way we won't have border controls is if we align ourselves with EU standards on virtually everything ie a soft brexit. 

 

 

[The Guvnor]

11 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

One more then.  Unfortunately we’ve have a government who were confused in their objectives for the past three years.  The fact that the backstop cane from the UK doesn’t make it any less shit.

Confused is one way of describing it, I think you're being extremely generous with that summation Jon.

[BlueSi13]

6 hours ago, Donk said:

 

If you wanted a deal why would you spend £2.1 billion preparing for no deal?

 

Why not just work towards a deal?

 

(Answer is to keep the rabid ideological cult brexit element quiet)

 

But its a totally unnecesssary waste of money then if boris wants a deal

 

Its not a case of using walking away as a tactic to secure a better deal either. Thats totally illogical

Are people still questioning this!?

 

Have you ever negotiated anything in your life?  

 

If you go in to a negotiation saying you'll never walk away under any circumstance, regardless of how bad the deal on offer is, what are the odds on getting a good deal do you think?

 

That was the problem with May's administration, it's all come out since that she never had any intention of leaving without a deal and none of her negotiating team actually wanted to leave the EU.  No wonder she signed up to the lamentable withdrawal agreement that gave everything the EU wanted. I actually don't blame them for clinging on to it as hard as they can.

[BlueSi13]

Meanwhile, no wonder Labour have gone quiet regarding a VONC.  First post-prorogue poll:

 

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 35% (+5)

LAB: 24% (-1)

LDEM: 18% (-)

BREX: 14% (-)

via @DeltapollUK, 29 - 31 Aug Chgs. w/ 27 Jul

 

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1167928278402748417

 

If parliament continues to frustrate Brexit, Boris will scoop up more and more of the BP vote share.  

 

Wouldn't be surprised if the Number 10 has orchestrated this to force a General Election pre-Brexit.

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

Are people still questioning this!?

 

Have you ever negotiated anything in your life?  

 

If you go in to a negotiation saying you'll never walk away under any circumstance, regardless of how bad the deal on offer is, what are the odds on getting a good deal do you think?

 

That was the problem with May's administration, it's all come out since that she never had any intention of leaving without a deal and none of her negotiating team actually wanted to leave the EU.  No wonder she signed up to the lamentable withdrawal agreement that gave everything the EU wanted. I actually don't blame them for clinging on to it as hard as they can.

This is sadly spot on, which is why the system itself where such confrontational approaches is seen to be necessary for success in international relations (not to mention other relations) annoys me so much.

 

9 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

Meanwhile, no wonder Labour have gone quiet regarding a VONC.  First post-prorogue poll:

 

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 35% (+5)

LAB: 24% (-1)

LDEM: 18% (-)

BREX: 14% (-)

via @DeltapollUK, 29 - 31 Aug Chgs. w/ 27 Jul

 

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1167928278402748417

 

If parliament continues to frustrate Brexit, Boris will scoop up more and more of the BP vote share.  

 

Wouldn't be surprised if the Number 10 has orchestrated this to force a General Election pre-Brexit.

This is pretty plausible, too.

[Donk]

30 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

Are people still questioning this!?

 

Have you ever negotiated anything in your life?  

 

If you go in to a negotiation saying you'll never walk away under any circumstance, regardless of how bad the deal on offer is, what are the odds on getting a good deal do you think?

 

That was the problem with May's administration, it's all come out since that she never had any intention of leaving without a deal and none of her negotiating team actually wanted to leave the EU.  No wonder she signed up to the lamentable withdrawal agreement that gave everything the EU wanted. I actually don't blame them for clinging on to it as hard as they can.

Yes people are still questionning this, because whats the fundamental point youre missing?

 

The fundamental point is when you are negotiating something, if you dont agree you revert back to the status quo you currently hold.

 

If we walk away from the negotiation, we do not walk back to the status quo we have now.

 

We walk back to a new, and substantially worse situation. 

 

If it wasnt worse why would we be stockpiling essential medicines and talking about destroying millions of lambs and yet we arent now? Thats just two examples.

 

The idea that the EU needs us more than we need them has been completely debunked.

 

The head of the german automotive industry has said they prioritise single market preservation over any arrangement with us that would undermine it.

 

Other nations like Holland have published info to manufacturers telling them to look for alternative suppliers for materials.

 

And they can do this. Because they have access to over 80 trade deals with over 160 countries and markets that we will lose access to.

 

And the "they need us more than we need them" argument doesnt work as the EU is not one country but soon to be a block of 27 distributing the disruption SOMEWHAT evenly, obviously some countries will be more affected.

 

On our end of the deal we get all the pain.

 

So thats why your comment was ill founded but youre not the only one who has fallen for the "have to be prepared to walk away" line.

 

Only now you can see why your asertion is incorrect.

 

 

Edited 1 September 2019 by Donk