The Politics Thread 2019

[Donk]

1 hour ago, Wortho said:

I love seeing all the seething remainers moaning. They have used Parliament to block the democratic vote from leaving the EU.

Now they have been outflanked and out thought by the government all they do is cry. 

 

Apparently they will block bridges and shut down the streets which reminds me of the 1970's with the unions running the country.

Youre another "end in itself" brexiteer who cant explain how your life, or anyone elses will improve, or a plan for how post brexit Britain will thrive.

 

Your only interest is to "see others seething".

 

Youre more or less exactly the person I was referring to in my first post.

Edited 30 August 2019 by Donk

[The Guvnor]

2 minutes ago, Donk said:

Youre another "end game" brexiteer who cant explain how your life, or anyone elses will improve, or a plan for how post brexit Britain will thrive.

 

Your only interest is to "see others seething".

 

Youre more or less exactly the person I was referring to in my first post.

To be fair, no matter what is written on here is going to make fcuk all difference, I cannot imagine the contents of these debates has changed many peoples minds over the past 3 years, and there are WUM on both sides, you either ignore them or 'bite'.

[Donk]

8 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

To be fair, no matter what is written on here is going to make fcuk all difference, I cannot imagine the contents of these debates has changed many peoples minds over the past 3 years, and there are WUM on both sides, you either ignore them or 'bite'.

The contents of the debates, which are non existant, wont have changed peoples minds.

 

But the contents of reality, which has been subtly shifted numerous times by the leave side surely should have done.

 

The turning point for most people really had to have been when people started saying they EXPECTED job losses, financial and other disruption, and this was backed by impact studies and documents like Yellowhammer, describing how our lives were going to get worse.

 

These were coming from the civil service for a government telling us we had to leave because it will be BETTER to leave.

 

When people like Jeremy Hunt described job losses as "a price worth paying", at that point "project fear" ceased to exist.

 

It was "project reality".........but I don't care I still want to leave. So the term project fear cannot be used with any credibility, as it is used to discredit the remain side of the debate. You cant use that term if you AGREE with project fear.

 

What would be a sensible rationale for these impact studies to be false? namely, if brexit really was going to be fantastic for our lives, why would we need to pretend it is going to be terrible.

 

Same goes for business. The Wetherspoons guy might be held up as a beacon of optimism over no deal (I personally just think he is a fool but you could make the case), but 90% probably more of businesses, certainly multinational ones, think brexit will be a disaster.

 

If it was a genuinely good thing to be doing, why would they feel the need to pretend itll be rubbish?

 

I cant fathom what it is that people SOME leave voters DO want, beyond the satisfaction of "sticking it" to demographic groups they don't like, namely, lefties, the younger generation who are less credible, "remoaners" etc etc.

 

How long will the satisfaction of "sticking it" to these people last, if things really do start to get worse. Which is highly likely, no one tries to deny it on either side.

 

Id like a genuine debate about what we will do, in this country, come November 1st onwards, that doesn't involve one single piece of rhetoric from the sun, any silly emotive and ultimately empty language, one comment of "we voted to leeeeeeeeeeeave get on with it" or any of that.

 

A genuine PLAN. That's what we have lost sight of, it is never discussed at all almost.

 

 

[Paninistickers]

Are any of the constitutionally and legally minded posters on here able to express a view on European citizenship trumping national citizenship? 

 

In short, is there a chance that individual UK nationals - if there's a deal or not - may legally be able to claim EU citizenship (in the way Northern Irish are eligible to choose their nationality between north and south) and retain rights of FOM, settlement, healthcare and trade?

[Kopfkino]

17 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Are any of the constitutionally and legally minded posters on here able to express a view on European citizenship trumping national citizenship? 

 

In short, is there a chance that individual UK nationals - if there's a deal or not - may legally be able to claim EU citizenship (in the way Northern Irish are eligible to choose their nationality between north and south) and retain rights of FOM, settlement, healthcare and trade?

 

Until someone brings it before the ECJ we won't know. Is argued both ways. Job for you. 

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, Wortho said:

I love seeing all the seething remainers moaning. They have used Parliament to block the democratic vote from leaving the EU.

Now they have been outflanked and out thought by the government all they do is cry. 

 

Apparently they will block bridges and shut down the streets which reminds me of the 1970's with the unions running the country.

 

1. The vote to Leave in March was also delayed by about 100 Tory MPs who wanted a Harder Brexit or No Deal. The delay wasn't just caused by "Remainers".

 

2. The democratic vote to Leave has not been blocked, only delayed due to disagreements about its terms. It is still the default position.

 

3. Most of those "Remainers" who delayed Brexit were prepared to compromise on Soft Brexit terms of various kinds. There is no mandate for any specific form of Brexit, only for Brexit - blame Cameron for that.

 

4. Those who wanted a second referendum hoped that it would reverse the outcome....but that would only be the case if the public voted Remain second time. That's still more democratic than using loopholes to stifle democratic debate.

 

5. Those were attempts to influence/change the terms for Brexit - as opposed to Boris using a legal ploy to stifle debate and opposition to a controversial extreme form of Brexit that has no mandate. I hope you'll still be gloating about this (possibly legal) abuse of democracy if a future Corbyn govt copies the method so as force through unpopular policies without scrutiny.....perhaps extra powers for unions, nationalization without compensation, your bollocks served as meatballs in the TUC canteen etc.

[Paninistickers]

4 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Until someone brings it before the ECJ we won't know. Is argued both ways. Job for you. 

Haha. Yep. I suppose someone has to bring  judicial reviews. I'll see how we get on against Bournemouth first 

 

 

[mazarron fox]

I live in Spain so for a lot of people Brexit could be a possible disaster. I voted to remain, but have accepted albeit marginally the country voted to leave. As a democratic country our politicians have to deliver Brexit as per the will of the people. Corbyn and the other idiots had ample chance to agree a deal but for their own potential political gain decided 3 times to vote a deal down.

we are where we are and Brexit needs to happen or democracy in our country is finished.

[Buce]

Just now, mazarron fox said:

I live in Spain so for a lot of people Brexit could be a possible disaster. I voted to remain, but have accepted albeit marginally the country voted to leave. As a democratic country our politicians have to deliver Brexit as per the will of the people. Corbyn and the other idiots had ample chance to agree a deal but for their own potential political gain decided 3 times to vote a deal down.

we are where we are and Brexit needs to happen or democracy in our country is finished.

 

It's a bit late for that - do you not follow the news?

[mazarron fox]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

It's a bit late for that - do you not follow the news?

Yes but we can still leave by the date with or without a deal so it isn’t quite yet unless the remainers have more delaying tactics up their sleeves

[leicsmac]

7 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Tbf, it's a more mundane line than what you're thinking in your head. Of course money isn't going to save you from an apocalypse. But then you're not likely to care after that anyways. 

 

It's more removing the luck of normal occurances, inflation, bank crisis, governments falling etc etc than making a person immortal, as far as I know that's not possible. 

Thanks for the clarification - that's what I figured you meant but wasn't altogether sure.

 

There are everyday crises too though tbh - accidents, sudden illnesses and the like - that are also often entirely down to luck - it's fortunate that in the UK having such a bad thing happen means that provided you live in one piece you're not going to have to worry about being bankrupted on account of the medical bill. If the UK really believed in an "every man an island" philosophy as many do across the pond, that wouldn't be the case.

 

For all that we might do luck, quite frankly, has more control over our lives than we might care to admit because it scares us, and IMO a key part of mitigating the swings of that luck is to share the risk and the work among as many people as possible.

[Footballwipe]

 

1 hour ago, Donk said:

Youre another "end in itself" brexiteer who cant explain how your life, or anyone elses will improve, or a plan for how post brexit Britain will thrive.

 

Your only interest is to "see others seething".

 

Youre more or less exactly the person I was referring to in my first post.

I would also genuinely like to know how much damage people are willing to have inflicted on themselves of their family just for the joy of leaving the EU.

 

- Negative equity in a house? Is it worth it?

- Spouse/Family/child/grandchildren losing their jobs? Is it worth it?

- Cost of living and the luxuries you buy increasing? Is it worth it?

 

I'd like to know, with all sincerity, what level of harm people would be willing to take. This dream of leaving the terrible shackles of the European Union is so strong, but no-one is seemingly worried about the consequences. So, the question is for those who do want out, what's it worth to you? We seem to be such an individualist society that the very thought of such major negative consequences to something should make people run cold, but it seems to be being ignored.

 

I'm genuinely interested because many of those at the forefront of the Leave movement in the media are unlikely to be affected by such trauma.

[David Guiza]

Amused me way more than it should have done. 

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Donk said:

Youre another "end in itself" brexiteer who cant explain how your life, or anyone elses will improve, or a plan for how post brexit Britain will thrive.

 

Your only interest is to "see others seething".

 

Youre more or less exactly the person I was referring to in my first post.

 

This is the most annoying and perplexing thing.

 

Judging by his posts, Wortho is an ordinary working-class bloke, precisely the demographic who will most suffer the consequences of Brexit; it's like setting fire to your house just to watch the neighbours burn.

[what?]

Gordon Brown reckons the EU are going to chuck out the Oct 31st deadline and come forward with an extension offer. Not clear if it's true but would be put the brakes on Johnson's plan to pin the blame for no deal on EU intransigence.

Edited 30 August 2019 by what?

[Donk]

24 minutes ago, mazarron fox said:

Yes but we can still leave by the date with or without a deal so it isn’t quite yet unless the remainers have more delaying tactics up their sleeves

did you read Alf Bentley's post? the delaying tactics are not solely down to remainers. Not by a long way.

 

We could have left the EU on two previous occasions, as we had a withdrawal agreement in place agreed with the EU.

 

But it was rejected by SOME remain MP's because either they fundamentally disagree with brexit full stop or they wanted the 2nd referendum or modifications etc, and SOME LEAVE MP's for not being "brexity" enough.

 

If it was as simple as "leave means leave" or "we voted to leave" then why did some leavers not vote for the withdrawal agreement, as it WASNT (in their eyes) "leaving", whilst other leavers did vote FOR the withdrawal agreement because it WAS leaving?

 

Theres your problem in a nutshell isn't it.

 

The moment you write A PLAN of any kind down, youll instantly reduce supporters of your plan into a minority. Because all the other options available combined, INCLUDING remaining, will be the majority.

 

The only way you can keep this sinking ship floated, is to offer "no deal".

 

No deal means no plan. No plan means no detail. No detail means it SORT OF holds together the leave side into some sort of position.

 

Except we know it doesn't, because we know that from the rhetoric pre-referendum, and from what leavers have said POST referendum, that they don't want no deal.

 

The only way this whole thing can be ended, is to go back to the people, with a more detailed question, and ask them what they want.

 

Not just "Leave"....put known quantities against each other, in a format that's fair. Put a negotiated deal and all its consequences, KNOWN QUANTITY, vs no deal with all its consequences, KNOWN QUANTITY, against remain.

 

And remain SHOULD be a part of that, just as much as people don't know what they want from leaving, they should also have the right to say remaining is the best option.

 

I hear that people don't like the "it splits the leave vote" school of thought. I get that. But the leave vote IS split. that's the whole problem. Everyone wants something different.

 

Its only a majority when all these conflicting and impossible to achieve visions come together in one group that it forms a majority.

 

Otherwise, if you think that rail roading no deal through without any opposition is going to somehow put this issue to bed, I think youre very, very much mistaken.

 

 

[Wortho]

Both the labour and conservative parties said in 2017 that they would honour the referendum result. Labour have changed their mind to please metropolitan elite. And at the same time stuck two fingers up to their northern leave constituents. I think Labour will never get these voters back as they feel more in common with the Tories/Brexit parties.

[Donk]

14 minutes ago, Wortho said:

Both the labour and conservative parties said in 2017 that they would honour the referendum result. Labour have changed their mind to please metropolitan elite. And at the same time stuck two fingers up to their northern leave constituents. I think Labour will never get these voters back as they feel more in common with the Tories/Brexit parties.

I have no problem honouring the referendum result. In fact id have accepted the May deal.

 

I have no problem accepting the referendum result and subsequent actions, as long as it:

 

• Honours the referendum result in the ways discussed in the leave campaign, where prominent leave campaigners said we would leave WITH a deal (in fact saying we would have a deal that would be better than our EU membership, and bespoke like Norway for example)

 

• Lays out detailed terms, or at least proposals, for future trade arrangements, security arrangements, citizens rights and a host of other factors put at risk by the decision to leave the EU

 

• Comes under proper parliamentary scrutiny, from people we have ELECTED to put there (seeing as brexit is all about sovereignty and giving back power to parliament etc etc etc), rather than being forced through without a clear majority

 

• Does not needlessly and unapologetically screw over significant numbers of people across large industries in the UK, car manufacturing and farming being two obvious and highly quoted examples

 

If we reach that point with either Boris, a prominent brexiteer MP or yourself fulfilling those criteria, then I'm all ears to your plan.

 

Until then, bore off with your braindead wumming.

 

Edited 30 August 2019 by Donk

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Wortho said:

Both the labour and conservative parties said in 2017 that they would honour the referendum result. Labour have changed their mind to please metropolitan elite. And at the same time stuck two fingers up to their northern leave constituents. I think Labour will never get these voters back as they feel more in common with the Tories/Brexit parties.

And how is the weather in Moscow today, Comrade?

[Finnaldo]

2 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

And how is the weather in Moscow today, Comrade?

 

Shhh, if he shouts louder into the void, Uncle Vlad might give him a payrise!

[Voll Blau]

In more "I reckon it's all gonna be fine, why don't they just get on with it" news...

 

Quote

A no-deal Brexit would lead to a collapse in investment and could spark factory closures, Derbyshire's biggest firms have told the Government.

Companies including Toyota and Rolls-Royce made their fears clear in a meeting with Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove yesterday.

And Toyota has now told workers at its Burnaston plant not to come in the day after Brexit is scheduled to take place.
It is planning to temporarily halt production at its Derbyshire factory in anticipation of possible disruption to deliveries in the wake of a possible no-deal Brexit, unions say.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/toyota-plans-temporary-shut-down-3266755

[Wortho]

16 minutes ago, Donk said:

I have no problem honouring the referendum result. In fact id have accepted the May deal.

 

I have no problem accepting the referendum result and subsequent actions, as long as it:

 

• Honours the referendum result in the ways discussed in the leave campaign, where prominent leave campaigners said we would leave WITH a deal (in fact saying we would have a deal that would be better than our EU membership, and bespoke like Norway for example)

 

• Lays out detailed terms, or at least proposals, for future trade arrangements, security arrangements, citizens rights and a host of other factors put at risk by the decision to leave the EU

 

• Comes under proper parliamentary scrutiny, from people we have ELECTED to put there (seeing as brexit is all about sovereignty and giving back power to parliament etc etc etc), rather than being forced through without a clear majority

 

• Does not needlessly and unapologetically screw over significant numbers of people across large industries in the UK, car manufacturing and farming being two obvious and highly quoted examples

 

If we reach that point with either Boris, a prominent brexiteer MP or yourself fulfilling those criteria, then I'm all ears to your plan.

 

Until then, bore off with your braindead wumming.

 

You seem to have your knickers in a twist.

[Donk]

1 minute ago, Wortho said:

You seem to have your knickers in a twist.

I was expecting "you lost get over it" so that was a pleasant surprise

[Wortho]

17 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

And how is the weather in Moscow today, Comrade?

Oh yeah that's funny 

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, Wortho said:

Oh yeah that's funny 

 

If you want to be taken seriously, why not tell us exactly how being in the EU has ever adversely affected you and how you expect your life to be improved by Brexit?

 

I think that's a pretty reasonable request.