The Politics Thread 2019

[Alf Bentley]

51 minutes ago, Wortho said:

Both the labour and conservative parties said in 2017 that they would honour the referendum result. 

 

These are quotes from the 2017 Tory and Labour manifestos:

 

Tories: "As we leave the European Union, we want to negotiate a new, deep and special partnership with the EU, which will allow free trade between the UK and the EU's member states. As part of the agreement we strike, we want to make sure that there are as few barriers to trade and investment as possible".

 

Labour: "We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first. [...] Labour recognises that leaving the EU with ‘no deal’ is the worst possible deal for Britain and that it would do damage to our economy and trade. We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option and, if needs be, negotiate transitional arrangements to avoid a ‘cliff-edge’ for the UK economy".

 

Thus, in 2017 both parties were committed to a negotiated Brexit deal (with differing priorities). My understanding is that Labour still is committed to negotiating a deal, much to the annoyance of People's Vote supporters (albeit Labour has tacked a second referendum commitment onto any hypothetical deal that they or the Tories do, and have said that they'd favour Remain over a Tory Hard Brexit).

 

In 2017, Labour was clearly committed to opposing No Deal - and it was the Tory policy to avoid it. Neither the 2016 referendum nor the 2017 election gives any party a mandate for No Deal, still less the suspension of democracy to abusively force through such a mandate-free policy.

[Grebfromgrebland]

When is the penny going to drop that there's no us and them? No remainers and leavers.  We're in this together and will suffer together.  No-one will be better off whichever way you voted.  

 

The Brexiteers and super rich and hedge funds will take the UK for all it can.  This goes beyond borders.

 

The time to argue is over and realise that we've all been played and we should unite to stop Brexit.

 

If you still want Brexit do a little research into how Hitler came into power and then into Cambridge Analytica and Domminic Cummins.  Look into the election fraud, watch the Great Hack on Netflix. Look at what prominent people in the NHS and businesses are saying.  

 

After knowing all this see if you still want to Brexit, if you do you're probably one of the people who, if this was 1935, would be happy to run the gas chambers and kill people for fun.  Or you're just fvcking stupid.

[LiberalFox]

Loads of people will do alright out of it though or had nothing to lose in the first place.

[WigstonWanderer]

So many good and detailed arguments above against a no-deal Brexit, but unfortunately they will fall on deaf ears. Dominic (Goebbels) Cummings has successfully manipulated vast tracts of the populace, and leaving the EU has become a cult, impervious to any logic or even appeals to self-interest. They can only trot out the same mantras over and over, 17.4m, project fear, remoaners betrayal, etc.

Edited 30 August 2019 by WigstonWanderer

[Donk]

10 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

Loads of people will do alright out of it though or had nothing to lose in the first place.

"Had nothing to lose in the first place" is a bit silly.

 

it might not seem like they had anything to lose, but I'm sure they did. They had jobs that might be threatened, they will buy goods that are likely to be more expensive or limited in choice, they'll notice if they do go abroad for example their pound wont buy them many euros, they might suffer more difficulties in getting medicines or treatments. They might even become victims of crime of abuse if theyre immigrants.

 

Their status quo might not have been great, but HOW MUCH of that is REALLY down to the EU?

 

The people who will do alright out of it.....of course. There will be people investing in emerging markets who we will be buying stuff off, depending on what we do with tariffs. There will be people exporting who will take advantage of our diminishing pound. There will be people selling cheap tat that will do ok. Racists will love their empowered status to be more racist etc etc.

 

But again, does that represent a significant majority of people that wont see any benefit at all? No.

Edited 30 August 2019 by Donk

[Buce]

 

John Major, Tom Watson and Jo Swinson have joined Gina Miller's legal action.

[LiberalFox]

I feel like I've lost a bit of faith in democracy.

[Alf Bentley]

12 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

John Major, Tom Watson and Jo Swinson have joined Gina Miller's legal action.

 

 

Apparently, Major will be represented in court by Edward Garnier, your and my ex-MP for Harborough/Oadby. He always seemed one of the better Tories when I was living in Oadby.

[WigstonWanderer]

4 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

I feel like I've lost a bit of faith in democracy.

In an age of manipulation through social media, powerful lobby groups and a rampant elite prepared to do whatever it takes to consolidate ever more wealth and power, democracy is largely illusory.

[Paninistickers]

36 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

John Major, Tom Watson and Jo Swinson have joined Gina Miller's legal action.

Even as a staunch remainer, I find the hoo-ha over prorogation all a bit OTT and embarrassing

 

Parliament is the law. If 310/MPs (or whatever it is) club together, the government is stuffed.

 

The fly in the ointment is Corbyn. If he would agree to be the bigger man, step aside to allow a neutral temporary leader of a government of national unity ....then a no confidence vote would go through next week. And the right wing extremists running this government are toast, at least til the GE

 

 

[Buce]

28 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

Apparently, Major will be represented in court by Edward Garnier, your and my ex-MP for Harborough/Oadby. He always seemed one of the better Tories when I was living in Oadby.

 

Is that what's called 'damning with faint praise'?

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Even as a staunch remainer, I find the hoo-ha over prorogation all a bit OTT and embarrassing

 

Parliament is the law. If 310/MPs (or whatever it is) club together, the government is stuffed.

 

The fly in the ointment is Corbyn. If he would agree to be the bigger man, step aside to allow a neutral temporary leader of a government of national unity ....then a no confidence vote would go through next week. And the right wing extremists running this government are toast, at least til the GE

 

 

 

That's not quite the case.

 

Time is of the essence and Prorogation has reduced it further. Why else do you think Cummings has done it (because it is Cummings' doing - it has his sinister little paw marks all over it)?

[Spiritwalker]

2 hours ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

When is the penny going to drop that there's no us and them? No remainers and leavers.  We're in this together and will suffer together.  No-one will be better off whichever way you voted.  

 

The Brexiteers and super rich and hedge funds will take the UK for all it can.  This goes beyond borders.

 

The time to argue is over and realise that we've all been played and we should unite to stop Brexit.

 

If you still want Brexit do a little research into how Hitler came into power and then into Cambridge Analytica and Domminic Cummins.  Look into the election fraud, watch the Great Hack on Netflix. Look at what prominent people in the NHS and businesses are saying.  

 

After knowing all this see if you still want to Brexit, if you do you're probably one of the people who, if this was 1935, would be happy to run the gas chambers and kill people for fun.  Or you're just fvcking stupid.

The tragedy is that many people supporting no deal Brexit just don't realise how adversely their

lives will be affected by it. By the time the penny drops it's going to be too late.

 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Spiritwalker said:

The tragedy is that many people supporting no deal Brexit just don't realise how adversely their

lives will be affected by it. By the time the penny drops it's going to be too late.

 

 

And who will they blame? Not themselves, I fear, so who will bear the brunt of their anger?

[Spiritwalker]

6 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

And who will they blame? Not themselves, I fear, so who will bear the brunt of their anger?

If and when this disaster falls upon us hopefully people will realise that this was a hard

right agenda and make them pay the price at the ballot box. If things go very badly after Brexit

the Tories could be out of power for a generation.

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Spiritwalker said:

If and when this disaster falls upon us hopefully people will realise that this was a hard

right agenda and make them pay the price at the ballot box. If things go very badly after Brexit

the Tories could be out of power for a generation.

 

I'd love to think that was true - it would (almost) make Brexit worthwhile - but you only have to look on here to see the levels of self-delusion among a certain kind of voter; the Tory propaganda machine has already sowed the seeds of blame with it’s rhetoric this last few weeks. It's not well received when you say it but the fact is the same people who were conned into voting for unicorns (and, yes, before anyone jumps down my throat, some Leavers made an informed choice) are being primed by Tory soundbites, aided and abetted by the right-wing press, into blaming Remainer 'traitors', left-wing 'anti-democrats' and the 'intransigent' EU, ready for when it all turns to shit.

 

Call it hyperbole if you like (and the usual suspects will) but there are echoes of 1930s Germany in what's happening to out nation. To paraphrase Martin Niemöller, "First they came for the Poles..."

Edited 30 August 2019 by Buce

[Grebfromgrebland]

 

It wasn't the Germans we defeated (or set back) 75 years ago it was fascism.

[Spiritwalker]

5 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

 

It wasn't the Germans we defeated (or set back) 75 years ago it was fascism.

Take away the Scots and Welsh from our electorate and what you are left with is very right wing.

[Wortho]

52 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I'd love to think that was true - it would (almost) make Brexit worthwhile - but you only have to look on here to see the levels of self-delusion among a certain kind of voter; the Tory propaganda machine has already sowed the seeds of blame with its rhetoric this last few weeks. It's not well received when you say it but the fact is the same people who were conned into voting for unicorns (and, yes, before anyone jumps down my throat, some Leavers made an informed choice) are being primed by Tory soundbites, aided and abetted by the right-wing press, into blaming Remainer 'traitors', left-wing 'anti-democrats' and the 'intransigent' EU, ready for when it all turns to shit.

 

Call it hyperbole if you like (and the usual suspects will) but there are echoes of 1930s Germany in what's happening to out nation. To paraphrase Martin Niemöller, "First they came for the Poles..."

Do you actually remember the Labour/Union dominated party of the 1970's. Great stuff mate. 

[Grebfromgrebland]

 

 

[Salisbury Fox]

25 minutes ago, Spiritwalker said:

Take away the Scots and Welsh from our electorate and what you are left with is very right wing.

Rubbish, geez this is now just a left/remain echo chamber

[Wortho]

1 minute ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

 

 

And you believe this nonsense?

[Salisbury Fox]

1 minute ago, Wortho said:

And you believe this nonsense?

He believes everything he reads on Twitter

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Wortho said:

And you believe this nonsense?

 

Of course not, they're just on holiday, right?

[Wortho]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Of course not, they're just on holiday, right?

Will you be taking to the streets to protest? Good luck to you.