The Politics Thread 2019

[BlueSi13]

3 minutes ago, Donk said:

Yes people are still questionning this, because whats the fundamental point youre missing?

 

The fundamental point is when you are negotiating something, if you dont agree you revert back to the status quo you currently hold.

 

If we walk away from the negotiation, we do not walk back to the status quo we have now.

 

We walk back to a new, and substantially worse situation. 

 

If it wasnt worse why would we be stockpiling essential medicines and talking about destroying millions of lambs and yet we arent now? Thats just two examples.

 

The idea that the EU needs us more than we need them has been completely debunked.

 

The head of the german automotive industry has said they prioritise single market preservation over any arrangement with us that would undermine it.

 

Other nations like Holland have published info to manufacturers telling them to look for alternative suppliers for materials.

 

And they can do this. Because they have access to over 80 trade deals with over 160 countries and markets that we will lose access to.

 

And the "they need us more than we need them" argument doesnt work as the EU is not one country but soon to be a block of 27 distributing the disruption SOMEWHAT evenly, obviously some countries will be more affected.

 

On our end of the deal we get all the pain.

 

So thats why your comment was ill founded but youre not the only one who has fallen for the "have to be prepared to walk away" line.

 

Only now you can see why your asertion is incorrect.

 

 

No it isn't incorrect.

 

Make no mistake a no deal would cause disruption, but it would also cause disruption for the EU.  Therefore a mutually beneficial deal is in both parties interests.

 

It is absolutely bonkers to assume that the UK should just gratefully accept whatever is offered by the EU.  That is absolutely appalling negotiation and finally we have a government that understands that.

 

The EU couldn't have made it clearer that it wants the UK to struggle and suffer post-Brexit to discourage other member states from leaving and seeing its project fail.  To simply state that the UK, the worlds fifth largest economy should roll over and not be willing to walk away from a deal which is completely imbalanced in terms of favour, is nuts.

 

[Donk]

16 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

No it isn't incorrect.

 

Make no mistake a no deal would cause disruption, but it would also cause disruption for the EU.  Therefore a mutually beneficial deal is in both parties interests.

 

It is absolutely bonkers to assume that the UK should just gratefully accept whatever is offered by the EU.  That is absolutely appalling negotiation and finally we have a government that understands that.

 

The EU couldn't have made it clearer that it wants the UK to struggle and suffer post-Brexit to discourage other member states from leaving and seeing its project fail.  To simply state that the UK, the worlds fifth largest economy should roll over and not be willing to walk away from a deal which is completely imbalanced in terms of favour, is nuts.

 

Why do you think anything better exists in terms of a negotiation? 

 

We decided to leave and brought this on ourselves.

 

Your assertion is still based on two largely redundant bases the leave campaign was fought on:

 

That the EU need us more than we need them.

 

And that some sort of brilliant bespoke deal exists that will give us all the benefits of EU membership without being an EU member.

 

But you are holding these beliefs as the prominent leave campaigners have shifted their OWN beliefs away from these kind of phrases.

 

In fact far from the EU "needing us" leavers are now criticising the EU for not negotiating further with us. As if its THEIR fault were looking at a cliff edge.

 

It cant be their fault if youre suggesting we should threaten them with a no deal scenario and they accept our threat.

 

But im also not naive. I know youre heavily invested in leave and like many others, although you should, you cant get out of it now.

 

Youll unfortnately have to cling to new phrases now. Ones like "i never voted for a deal" and "wto rules" 

 

This isnt your fault. The leave campaign brought you to this position. They patronised your intelligence, and theyve tied you in knots. 

 

We can only hope for the "least bad" brexit now. 

[BlueSi13]

16 minutes ago, Donk said:

Why do you think anything better exists in terms of a negotiation? 

 

We decided to leave and brought this on ourselves.

 

Your assertion is still based on two largely redundant bases the leave campaign was fought on:

 

That the EU need us more than we need them.

 

And that some sort of brilliant bespoke deal exists that will give us all the benefits of EU membership without being an EU member.

 

But you are holding these beliefs as the prominent leave campaigners have shifted their OWN beliefs away from these kind of phrases.

 

In fact far from the EU "needing us" leavers are now criticising the EU for not negotiating further with us. As if its THEIR fault were looking at a cliff edge.

 

It cant be their fault if youre suggesting we should threaten them with a no deal scenario and they accept our threat.

 

But im also not naive. I know youre heavily invested in leave and like many others, although you should, you cant get out of it now.

 

Youll unfortnately have to cling to new phrases now. Ones like "i never voted for a deal" and "wto rules" 

 

This isnt your fault. The leave campaign brought you to this position. They patronised your intelligence, and theyve tied you in knots. 

 

We can only hope for the "least bad" brexit now. 

Talk about patronising 

 

I, like the overwhelming majority of leavers voted for us to regain complete control of our laws, trade and borders and to leave a declining project whose only goal is deeper and deeper union.

 

Absolutely NOTHING on our end has changed since 2016 and we expect that to be the endgame.  We, like the government, want a sensible and mutually beneficial free trade deal come the 31st.  But as we can see so far the EU is unwilling to renegotiate to that position as they know this will be too beneficial to the UK and will offer a significant lift to other countries with eurosceptic populaces.  

 

Therefore I fully support the government preparations for no deal and insistence they will go ahead if Merkel and Macron cannot get Barnier to shift.  

 

This has dragged on for far too long and it needs to end now.

Edited 1 September 2019 by BlueSi13

[Donk]

1 minute ago, BlueSi13 said:

Talk about patronising 

 

I, like the overwhelming majority of leavers voted for us to regain complete control of our laws, trade and borders and to leave a declining project whose only goal is deeper and deeper union.

 

Absolutely NOTHING on our end has changed since 2016 and we expect that to be the endgame.  We, like the government, want a sensible and mutually beneficial free trade deal come the 31st.  But as we can see so far the EU is unwilling to renegotiate to that position as they know this will be too beneficial to the UK and will offer a significant lift to other countries with eurosceptic populaces.  

 

Therefore I fully support the government preparations for no deal in the and insistence they will go ahead if Merkel and Macron cannot get Barnier to shift.  

 

This has dragged on for far too long and it needs to end now.

Well, we could do the "name the laws you dont like" routine, or we could point out that future trade deals, as already intimated by India and the far east would be contingent on the free movement of people, or we could talk about how trade is contingent on mutually agreed laws between members of the market which would lead to (in your eyes) a loss of sovereignty but thats been done to death and no one can ever make coherent points anyway when probed on such things so its a waste of a few posts back and forth.

 

Lets just hope for a miracle. 

[leicsmac]

18 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

Talk about patronising 

 

I, like the overwhelming majority of leavers voted for us to regain complete control of our laws, trade and borders and to leave a declining project whose only goal is deeper and deeper union.

 

Absolutely NOTHING on our end has changed since 2016 and we expect that to be the endgame.  We, like the government, want a sensible and mutually beneficial free trade deal come the 31st.  But as we can see so far the EU is unwilling to renegotiate to that position as they know this will be too beneficial to the UK and will offer a significant lift to other countries with eurosceptic populaces.  

 

Therefore I fully support the government preparations for no deal and insistence they will go ahead if Merkel and Macron cannot get Barnier to shift.  

 

This has dragged on for far too long and it needs to end now.

Mind if I ask a quick question on this, as I'm interested in a Leavers answer:

 

What makes you think the project is declining, and how is the decline considered desirous when right now international co-operation seems to be required more than ever, particularly in the EU wrt setting an example as both the US and China are very busy looking after number 1 (yes, of course other types of co-operation are possible than the methodology the EU uses, but it is a symbol of such co-operation anyway)?

 

I can't see a more fractured, disparate world being anything other than a bad thing for the future.

Edited 1 September 2019 by leicsmac

[HappyHamza]

Gove refusing to rule out the government ignoring any new anti-no deal legislation. We're on the brink of dictatorship. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-no-deal-vote-michael-gove-boris-johnson-a9087261.html

[The Guvnor]

30 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Mind if I ask a quick question on this, as I'm interested in a Leavers answer:

 

What makes you think the project is declining, and how is the decline considered desirous when right now international co-operation seems to be required more than ever, particularly in the EU wrt setting an example as both the US and China are very busy looking after number 1 (yes, of course other types of co-operation are possible than the methodology the EU uses, but it is a symbol of such co-operation anyway)?

 

I can't see a more fractured, disparate world being anything other than a bad thing for the future.

Interesting read about the Eurozone.

 

https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/24/the-europe-union-has-bigger-problems-to-deal-with-than-brexit?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQEKAFwAQ%3D%3D#aoh=15673425130763&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fbusiness%2F2019%2Fmar%2F24%2Fthe-europe-union-has-bigger-problems-to-deal-with-than-brexit

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, The Guvnor said:

Interesting read about the Eurozone.

 

https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/24/the-europe-union-has-bigger-problems-to-deal-with-than-brexit?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQEKAFwAQ%3D%3D#aoh=15673425130763&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fbusiness%2F2019%2Fmar%2F24%2Fthe-europe-union-has-bigger-problems-to-deal-with-than-brexit

A very interesting read, thank you.

 

Closer integration may well end up being the best if not only solution, but I do wonder which way things will go from here as the last couple of sentences of my last post still stand.

[Grebfromgrebland]

Can it be spelt out any clearer than this?

 

 

 

[Buce]

4 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

Can it be spelt out any clearer than this?

 

 

 

 

35 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

It’s all going to be fine.

 

This is what you're up against, Greb.

 

Jon is an intelligent bloke but still can't see it for what it is, so what chance people like Wortho will listen?

[Leicester_Loyal]

On 30/08/2019 at 12:16, The Guvnor said:

To be fair, no matter what is written on here is going to make fcuk all difference, I cannot imagine the contents of these debates has changed many peoples minds over the past 3 years, and there are WUM on both sides, you either ignore them or 'bite'.

Very true.

 

Same debate, same answers, same comebacks, no minds have been changed.

 

Boris seems to have something up his sleeve, he isn't stupid.

 

PS. Imagine using FBPE and Carole Cadwallas tweets are a reference of truth

Edited 1 September 2019 by Leicester_Loyal

[Grebfromgrebland]

10 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Very true.

 

Same debate, same answers, same comebacks, no minds have been changed.

 

Boris seems to have something up his sleeve, he isn't stupid.

 

PS. Imagine using FBPE and Carole Cadwallas tweets are a reference of truth

At least Carole Cadwalladr backs up her claims with hard evidence such as photos, emails and things that people have actually said and done on record.

 

I'd say we have bigger problems when people can't accept facts. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

12 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

At least Carole Cadwalladr backs up her claims with hard evidence such as photos, emails and things that people have actually said and done on record.

 

I'd say we have bigger problems when people can't accept facts. 

Roll on October 31st

[Grebfromgrebland]

12 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Roll on October 31st

You should change your tag from Leicester_loyal. There's no way you're loyal to Leicester or any one in it.

[Leicester_Loyal]

Just now, Grebfromgrebland said:

You should change your tag from Leicester_loyal. There's no way you're loyal to Leicester or any one in it.

[Facecloth]

2 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

You should change your tag from Leicester_loyal. There's no way you're loyal to Leicester or any one in it.

Leicester_easily_led?

Leicester_simpleton?

Leicester_shoot_myself_in_the_foot?

Leicester_i_knew_what_i_was_voting_for_even_though_it_was_never_clear_what_we_were_getting?

 

Any of these could work.

[Buce]

4 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Leicester_easily_led?

Leicester_simpleton?

Leicester_shoot_myself_in_the_foot?

Leicester_i_knew_what_i_was_voting_for_even_though_it_was_never_clear_what_we_were_getting?

 

Any of these could work.

 

Leicester Dunning–Kruger effect?

[Facecloth]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Leicester Dunning–Kruger effect?

He'll have to google that 

[Leicester_Loyal]

As seems to be the case on here, plenty of people ask for the 52% to put their reasons up why, they put them up then are slated for it. Others like me have got bored of doing so, so will just get abuse from posters such as yourselves for having a difference of opinion.

 

Is that Communism? Facism? I don't know.

 

Enjoy your day all

Edited 1 September 2019 by Leicester_Loyal

[Leicester_Loyal]

Cons now polling at 33% on YouGov

[Facecloth]

6 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

As seems to be the case on here, plenty of people ask for the 52% to put their reasons up why, they put them up then are slated for it. Others like me have got bored of doing so, so will just get abuse from posters such as yourselves for having a difference of opinion.

 

Is that Communism? Facism? I don't know.

 

Enjoy your day all

Well no, you get asked and you either refuse, or put up the same arguments that have been debunked numerous times over the last three year. You need to come up with some better answer, because the old bullshit is just that, old and bullshit. Give us something that can't be easily pulled apart and we might respect your decision.

[Leicester_Loyal]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Well no, you get asked and you either refuse, or put up the same arguments that have been debunked numerous times over the last three year. You need to come up with some better answer, because the old bullshit is just that, old and bullshit. Give us something that can't be easily pulled apart and we might respect your decision.

 

As has been said 10000000 times, you can't debunk the arguments because as someone has said earlier they are personal to each individual.

 

Boris must be doing something right to be polling at 33%? Half the country voted to leave. We've got to move on my friend, can't keep crying over spilt milk.

Edited 1 September 2019 by Leicester_Loyal

[Facecloth]

24 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

 

As has been said 10000000 times, you can't debunk the arguments because as someone has said earlier they are personal to each individual.

 

Boris must be doing something right to be polling at 33%? Half the country voted to leave. We've got to move on my friend, can't keep crying over spilt milk.

Of course they can be debunked. If you say its about sovereignty, it can be pointed out we've always been sovereign. If its about immigration it can pointed out we were able to bring in policies which would limited eu immigration. Trade deals. Of course, our biggest trading partner is the eu, and we'll only end up buying deregulated cheap shit from thr likes of the usa. Also if we wanna still sell to the eu, well still have to meet single market rules. I mean I could go on over the number of reason people have given for brexit. They might be personal to each person, which makes a type of brexit almost impossible to define, but it doesn't make them undebunkable.

Edited 1 September 2019 by Facecloth

[Bryn]

54 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

As seems to be the case on here, plenty of people ask for the 52% to put their reasons up why, they put them up then are slated for it. Others like me have got bored of doing so, so will just get abuse from posters such as yourselves for having a difference of opinion.

 

Is that Communism? Facism? I don't know.

 

Enjoy your day all

 

We ask for valid and evidence-based arguments for being stripped of our European citizenship for a bunch of xenophobes. Still haven't seen one in 3 years.

[Leicester_Loyal]

Name calling again, my my, imagine my surprise