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[somebum]

On 03/01/2020 at 23:33, WigstonWanderer said:

Quite aside from the rights and wrongs of assassinating leading foreign military figures, no one seems concerned that the US has launched an attack at a major civilian airport. Surely this itself is a shocking act of terrorism that sets a terrible precedent? Or is it OK because it’s in the Middle East?

Nah its OK because its the middle east

[somebum]

7 hours ago, Guesty said:

Trump's just tweeted he'll strike 52 Irainian targets if Iran react in any way. I'm not sure what will happen now. There's no way Irainain backed miltias will not react - they think they're going to paradise and have just had the equivalent of a sort of Winston Churchill assassinated. Plus, the economic sanctions have pushed Iran to a point where they can't carry on in the status quo.

 

I'm not sure if they've really misjudged this assassination - especially with Trump's tweet talking about negotiation - and that this was to stop, not start a war. The Iran leader tweeted the day before the assassination that Trump couldn't do anything after the embassy attack - did Trump just over react?

 

You've now got Iraq having three days of official national mourning for the Iranian general and the Iraqi's who were killed. That's the country the USA are supposed to be helping. That's the governments of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Afganistain who seem to be against or turning against them now. It just speaks to how poor the US' foreign policy has been. 

 

Abandoning the Kurds was a mistake. It basically just said to everyone, we're not even going to pretend to be loyal anymore after we've used you - even if you were our friends. Some of the US soldiers were leaving with Kurdish flags on their vehicles they were so digusted. 

 

They change their policy every 4 to 8 years depending on who's in charge creating power vacuums - meaning allies are also enemies, or allies of enemies. Their internal politics is so tribal that they can't keep a consistant strategy. The main reason Soleimani became so influencial was because he took advantage of the changes in strategy.

 

Whilst Putin and Xi Jinping are brutal dictators, they're always there and 'appear' to be loyal. They keep to the same long-term plan - and slowly but surely, seem to be quietly gaining allies. Russia and China started doing joint military training exercises with Iran two weeks ago (#coincidence?). I'm not going to hyperbolic and say there's going to be WW3; but there is going to become a point where Russia and China say enough is enough.

Bahaha come on,  have you even been to Russia. 

[Guesty]

4 hours ago, somebum said:

Bahaha come on,  have you even been to Russia. 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?

 

There's dead journalists and political opponents who would say he's pretty brutal when requried. When I say he's loyal: the reason I used 'appear' in quote marks was to imply it's for his own ends. His friends and allies have to know he'll have their back in most situations. But I'm sure they're all aware he's only loyal because it suits him to be.

 

You don't stay in power for as long as he has if you burn bridges and aren't prepared to remove dissent.

[somebum]

21 minutes ago, Guesty said:

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?

 

There's dead journalists and political opponents who would say he's pretty brutal when requried. When I say he's loyal: the reason I used 'appear' in quote marks was to imply it's for his own ends. His friends and allies have to know he'll have their back in most situations. But I'm sure they're all aware he's only loyal because it suits him to be.

 

You don't stay in power for as long as he has if you burn bridges and aren't prepared to remove dissent.

Point is, Putin is not a brutal dictator. But seriously have you ever lived in Russia. I have. Ever been? 

[Guesty]

1 minute ago, somebum said:

Point is, Putin is not a brutal dictator. But seriously have you ever lived in Russia. I have. Ever been? 

Always wanted to go, but no I've not been yet. He is pretty brutal if you are on the wrong side on him though isn't he? I guess it depends on your definition of dictator or what you consider to be brutal. He's certainly no Stalin or anything like that.

 

He's not as bad as the western media make him out to be - and he's a lot smarter than they portray him.  

 

When you keep power for as long as he has in part because journalists and political opponents die or know they might killed - I'd argue the description somewhat fits.

 

What's your opinion on him?

 

[somebum]

1 minute ago, Guesty said:

Always wanted to go, but no I've not been yet. He is pretty brutal if you are on the wrong side on him though isn't he? I guess it depends on your definition of dictator or what you consider to be brutal. He's certainly no Stalin or anything like that.

 

He's not as bad as the western media make him out to be - and he's a lot smarter than they portray him.  

 

When you keep power for as long as he has in part because journalists and political opponents die or know they might killed - I'd argue the description somewhat fits.

 

What's your opinion on him?

 

I like him. As you quite rightly said he is a great boogeyman for the West, but only when it suits agendas. The thought concerning his length in power linked with brutality is very black and white. Perhaps he is popular amongst the population. This of course means he gets stuff right. He is certainly no idiot. 

 

In Russia, since the fall of the soviet Union (a catastrophe for many) factions have wrestled for power. Putin expelled the Oligarchs who stole the wealth of mother Russia, jailing many. These oligarchs yielded tremendous wealth and power, particularly in the press. His achievements in redistributing such wealth in such a vast country should surely count amongst the greatest political achievements in modern times. 

 

The break up of the Union was disastrous but Putin has over an entire generation brought Russia back to a great world power. Not many people realize how catastrophic the downfall was. 

 

He is not perfect at all but as a statesman who represents Russia and her interests he is undeniably one of the greatest leaders of modern times. 

 

[leicsmac]

23 minutes ago, somebum said:

I like him. As you quite rightly said he is a great boogeyman for the West, but only when it suits agendas. The thought concerning his length in power linked with brutality is very black and white. Perhaps he is popular amongst the population. This of course means he gets stuff right. He is certainly no idiot. 

 

In Russia, since the fall of the soviet Union (a catastrophe for many) factions have wrestled for power. Putin expelled the Oligarchs who stole the wealth of mother Russia, jailing many. These oligarchs yielded tremendous wealth and power, particularly in the press. His achievements in redistributing such wealth in such a vast country should surely count amongst the greatest political achievements in modern times. 

 

The break up of the Union was disastrous but Putin has over an entire generation brought Russia back to a great world power. Not many people realize how catastrophic the downfall was. 

 

He is not perfect at all but as a statesman who represents Russia and her interests he is undeniably one of the greatest leaders of modern times. 

 

You make a pretty reasonable defence of the guy, esp the part about him being a boogeyman if and when it suits, and goodness knows it would be better if there was more co-operation rather than conflict and needling between the leading nations.

 

The bold is something I wouldn't mind focusing on though - I think given the system over there it's pretty difficult to tell how popular he is across the board, and the only thing that can be said with any certainty is that he's certainly not popular with a lot of minority groups given the way they are mistreated and the renewed primacy of the Orthodox Church (provided the reports of that can be relied upon). I know your view and mine about how those groups should be treated differs, though.

 

Way it looks from here is you can do well in Russia under Putin...as long as it's his way.

[Paninistickers]

25 minutes ago, somebum said:

I like him. As you quite rightly said he is a great boogeyman for the West, but only when it suits agendas. The thought concerning his length in power linked with brutality is very black and white. Perhaps he is popular amongst the population. This of course means he gets stuff right. He is certainly no idiot. 

 

In Russia, since the fall of the soviet Union (a catastrophe for many) factions have wrestled for power. Putin expelled the Oligarchs who stole the wealth of mother Russia, jailing many. These oligarchs yielded tremendous wealth and power, particularly in the press. His achievements in redistributing such wealth in such a vast country should surely count amongst the greatest political achievements in modern times. 

 

The break up of the Union was disastrous but Putin has over an entire generation brought Russia back to a great world power. Not many people realize how catastrophic the downfall was. 

 

He is not perfect at all but as a statesman who represents Russia and her interests he is undeniably one of the greatest leaders of modern times. 

 

Interesting comments.

 

I've always been perplexed at portraying Putin as a 'baddie'. 

 

His Ukraine and Georgia fights were caused by the west wiggling a stick in the hornets nest. He was provoked to react. Likewise sticking NATO missle defence systems in the baltics is inflammatory too.

 

Most of all, he's a great broker in the middle East. How/why we don't use him.ill never know. He can keep Iran sweet. His troops would gleefully exterminate ISIS. He backed the right horse in Syria (when Assad had previously been a western puppet) .....and even is tight  with influential Israeli jews.

[Guesty]

1 hour ago, somebum said:

I like him. As you quite rightly said he is a great boogeyman for the West, but only when it suits agendas. The thought concerning his length in power linked with brutality is very black and white. Perhaps he is popular amongst the population. This of course means he gets stuff right. He is certainly no idiot. 

 

In Russia, since the fall of the soviet Union (a catastrophe for many) factions have wrestled for power. Putin expelled the Oligarchs who stole the wealth of mother Russia, jailing many. These oligarchs yielded tremendous wealth and power, particularly in the press. His achievements in redistributing such wealth in such a vast country should surely count amongst the greatest political achievements in modern times. 

 

The break up of the Union was disastrous but Putin has over an entire generation brought Russia back to a great world power. Not many people realize how catastrophic the downfall was. 

 

He is not perfect at all but as a statesman who represents Russia and her interests he is undeniably one of the greatest leaders of modern times. 

 

To be honest because I'd written so much in the other post and had to link Russia and China I was a little lazy for brevity - I realise China is more of a dictatorship than Russia. Putin's situation is more nuanced and a grey area. If he didn't run the country the way he does it might collapse. I respect how he has lead Russia from the brink of ruin. I don't think many could have done it. And with the sanctions and situations the western world have put on Russia they have backed him in to corners then blamed him for succeding or doing what he needed to for the best interests of Russia.

 

Everything I've ever read said he didn't really want the job to begin with (which is not really a normal dictator). Plus the Russian government is a lot more complex than people realise. Until a few years ago I thought he had full ultimate control. But then found out there are different factions he has to keep happy. Sometimes the authoritarian faction do things he doesn't fully agree with, but pretends to as he doesn't want to look weak, but reprimands them in private. It is sometimes hard to know what is fact and what is fiction though.

 

If he did things like invading Iraq or assassinating foreign generals it would be wall to wall media coverage how he's a tyrant and warmongering, etc.

Edited 5 January 2020 by Guesty

[LiberalFox]

Funny, all the Russians I know dislike Putin. He's an old school nationalist and he's started multiple conflicts and been involved in several more and supports plenty of awful regimes. Probably the closest thing to a fascist we have in the modern world. Of course it's more fashionable to hate our two closest allies instead.

[Guest SO1]

and on it goes. All for the fear of Death. Play on.

[ozleicester]

[Paninistickers]

50 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

Funny, all the Russians I know dislike Putin. He's an old school nationalist and he's started multiple conflicts and been involved in several more and supports plenty of awful regimes. Probably the closest thing to a fascist we have in the modern world. Of course it's more fashionable to hate our two closest allies instead.

Of course, the US and Britain never support awful regimes. 

 

 

[Kopfkino]

On 04/01/2020 at 14:22, leicsmac said:

Guess my point about this is that the US can't proclaim to be the "good guy" and then turn around and do "bad guy" things which this ostensibly is. And it's hardly the first time, either.

 

I'd certainly agree that there are enough people covering this side of the argument on here, just unfortunate that there aren't enough out in the wider world doing similarly.

Use admit, fair play for hating the basic bitch hypocrisy argument on every topic apart from foreign policy where you dine out on it again and again

[somebum]

1 hour ago, LiberalFox said:

Funny, all the Russians I know dislike Putin. He's an old school nationalist and he's started multiple conflicts and been involved in several more and supports plenty of awful regimes. Probably the closest thing to a fascist we have in the modern world. Of course it's more fashionable to hate our two closest allies instead.

We all know that to the Liberal mind, a fascist is simply the person who is not a Liberal. 

 

Exactly how many Russians do you know? 

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Use admit, fair play for hating the basic bitch hypocrisy argument on every topic apart from foreign policy where you dine out on it again and again

Ummm...not sure if there's a typo in the first couple of words there, but I think I'm getting what you're saying.

 

It's not even hypocrisy in this case, I don't think - it's not like it's "do as I say, not as I do" or even "I say I'm not going to do that and then do it anyway", more like "I'm going to do as you do, I never said I wouldn't, it's going to be obvious, and I'm going to be morally superior when I've done it, because I'm just that righteous". Is that hypocrisy? I'm not sure, it might fit some definition of it, I guess.

 

In any case, I think drawing attention to hypocrisy is fair except in a situation where the party acting hypocritical doesn't actually have any effect on the fundamentals of the situation itself. (Though often such accusations are used merely for cheap point scoring with no solution attached to it, yeah.)

[Kopfkino]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Ummm...not sure if there's a typo in the first couple of words there, but I think I'm getting what you're saying.

 

It's not even hypocrisy in this case, I don't think - it's not like it's "do as I say, not as I do" or even "I say I'm not going to do that and then do it anyway", more like "I'm going to do as you do, I never said I wouldn't, it's going to be obvious, and I'm going to be morally superior when I've done it, because I'm just that righteous". Is that hypocrisy? I'm not sure, it might fit some definition of it, I guess.

 

In any case, I think drawing attention to hypocrisy is fair except in a situation where the party acting hypocritical doesn't actually have any effect on the fundamentals of the situation itself. (Though often such accusations are used merely for cheap point scoring with no solution attached to it, yeah.)

 

Or is it that you like the hypocrisy argument when you have very little of any value to say but don't like it when you think you've got lots of valuable tidbits to add that makes it an inconvenience. And I only say that because even in that post you've decided to act as gatekeeper, deciding its a fair to draw attention to hypocrisy at specific times conveniently aligned to your interest. I think fair to draw attention to it all the time personally, but its as much a nonsense in FP discussion as it is in the grand scheme of things with CC (though pertinent for individuals), it just takes a modicum of dexterity to overcome rather than whinge about it. 

[LiberalFox]

41 minutes ago, somebum said:

We all know that to the Liberal mind, a fascist is simply the person who is not a Liberal. 

 

Exactly how many Russians do you know? 

I've spoken to a handful online. I don't tend to talk politics so it's only things people have volunteered but I've never encountered a Russian who openly supports Putin. 

 

Plenty of comparisons to fascism can be made of Putin's governance.  

 

For what it's worth I'm open to hearing a different opinion but yours might as well be state propaganda.

 

If there's any politician I'd trust over Russia it would likely be Angela Merkel.

[Jon the Hat]

3 hours ago, somebum said:

I like him. As you quite rightly said he is a great boogeyman for the West, but only when it suits agendas. The thought concerning his length in power linked with brutality is very black and white. Perhaps he is popular amongst the population. This of course means he gets stuff right. He is certainly no idiot. 

 

In Russia, since the fall of the soviet Union (a catastrophe for many) factions have wrestled for power. Putin expelled the Oligarchs who stole the wealth of mother Russia, jailing many. These oligarchs yielded tremendous wealth and power, particularly in the press. His achievements in redistributing such wealth in such a vast country should surely count amongst the greatest political achievements in modern times. 

 

The break up of the Union was disastrous but Putin has over an entire generation brought Russia back to a great world power. Not many people realize how catastrophic the downfall was. 

 

He is not perfect at all but as a statesman who represents Russia and her interests he is undeniably one of the greatest leaders of modern times. 

 

Are you sure? Their economy is tiny.  Far from a world power.

[somebum]

51 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Are you sure? Their economy is tiny.  Far from a world power.

It's far from tiny, albeit sustained by mass natural resources most countries can only dream of.

 

Militarily they boast possibly the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons and one of the largest militaries on earth covering europe and asia.

 

59 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

I've spoken to a handful online. I don't tend to talk politics so it's only things people have volunteered but I've never encountered a Russian who openly supports Putin. 

 

Plenty of comparisons to fascism can be made of Putin's governance.  

 

For what it's worth I'm open to hearing a different opinion but yours might as well be state propaganda.

 

If there's any politician I'd trust over Russia it would likely be Angela Merkel.

Or maybe my opinions arent based on a handful of conversations online, but rather living there and having family and friends from various regions.

[Parafox]

46 minutes ago, somebum said:

It's far from tiny, albeit sustained by mass natural resources most countries can only dream of.

 

Militarily they boast possibly the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons and one of the largest militaries on earth covering europe and asia.

 

Or maybe my opinions arent based on a handful of conversations online, but rather living there and having family and friends from various regions.

Mmm, In bold, I would question Russia's GDP. Not that great and they take a lot from the countries they have influence over.

 

In italics, military power does not equate to a country's economy. Any country, such as North Korea can pour billions into military power but still leave their populace in poverty. As did Germany in WW2.

 

A wealthy government doesn't necessarily equate to a wealthy country. 

Edited 5 January 2020 by Parafox

[somebum]

4 minutes ago, Parafox said:

Mmm, In bold, I would question Russia's GDP. Not that great and they take a lot from the countries they have influence over.

 

In italics, military power does not equate to a country's economy. Any country, such as North Korea can pour billions into military power but still leave their populace in poverty. As did Germany in WW2.

 

A wealthy government doesn't necessarily equate to a wealthy country. 

Ok Parafox, good points but I wasn't stating the above as way of proving Russia has a great economy, it was to address other reasons I believe it to be a great world power (exclusive of economy)

[LiberalFox]

It's a great world power cos of a big stockpile of soviet era nuclear weapons apparently. 

[Parafox]

4 minutes ago, somebum said:

Ok Parafox, good points but I wasn't stating the above as way of proving Russia has a great economy, it was to address other reasons I believe it to be a great world power (exclusive of economy)

Military power?

I think Russia knows it would be excluded from the rest of the world if it really used that power. therefore, it has very little power.

[somebum]

6 minutes ago, Parafox said:

Military power?

I think Russia knows it would be excluded from the rest of the world if it really used that power. therefore, it has very little power.

Like most countries.