Also In The News

[ozleicester]

9 minutes ago, Guesty said:

The thing I read about the Australian fires that I couldn't believe is that a lot of the firefighters are unemployed volunteers. They've now had their unemployment benefit stopped as they've not been applying for jobs.

 

If you have a job: it was only a few days ago that they started compensating people who were volunteering who had taken leave from their job. 

 

Yet they spent millions on New Years fireworks displays in every major city. 

 

You start to understand why there's such anger towards the decision makers if that's true.

AFAIK Not "a lot" of fighters are unemployed... but they definitley are volunteers, and those that are unemployed will have their payments stopped because this is not an approved volunteer role (FFS). 

Most volunteer firefighters take time off from their jobs and do not get  paid... the government recently said they will give "federal employees" (about 5% of volunteers) up to $6000 payment.

Governments have cut and cut funding whilst giving $29 billion in rebates to mining companies.

 

This government has fought tooth and nail to avoid ANY climate action and denies a belief in climate change...we are being ruled by a failed advertising executive.

[Kopfkino]

Another day where Iran is in the news is just another day for large chunks of the Western media to publish utter drivel

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Another day where Iran is in the news is just another day for large chunks of the Western media to publish utter drivel

Can you unpack this a bit, Kopf? Not sure if you're taking the pov that the media think it's a good day to bury bad news, or that they're being too jingoistic, or not jingoistic enough, or something else?

[Jon the Hat]

46 minutes ago, Guesty said:

The thing I read about the Australian fires that I couldn't believe is that a lot of the firefighters are unemployed volunteers. They've now had their unemployment benefit stopped as they've not been applying for jobs.

 

If you have a job: it was only a few days ago that they started compensating people who were volunteering who had taken leave from their job. 

 

Yet they spent millions on New Years fireworks displays in every major city. 

 

You start to understand why there's such anger towards the decision makers if that's true.

You / the media / people who don't like Morrison are conflating issues here. 

Yes clearly people who are volunteer firefighters shouldn't have benefits stopped, and I am sure that change is imminent (unless they really are as stupid as many seem to think).  

Cancelling fireworks would have achieved nothing apart from showing they are in crisis and making many people cancel trips to Australia, others reconsider their business plans etc.  It is important to show things go on as normal for most people.  The money was already spent, so there would have been no savings, so not connected at all to your first point,

Edited 3 January 2020 by Jon the Hat

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You / the media / people who don't like Morrison are conflating issues here. 

Yes clearly people who are volunteer firefighters shouldn't have benefits stopped, and I am sure that change is imminent (unless they really are as stupid as many seem to think).  

Cancelling fireworks would have achieved nothing apart from showing they are in crisis and making many people cancel trips to Australia, others reconsider their business plans etc.  It is important to show things go on as normal for most people.  The money was already spent, so there would have been no savings, so not connected at all to your first point,

The point about the fireworks is a fair one.

 

However, let's not let this distract from the other points that people who "don't like Morrison" are making viz. his attitude as well as that of a large part of his voter base towards climate change prevention and preparation and the possible role it has had in bringing this situation about.

[Barrowblue]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

The point about the fireworks is a fair one.

 

However, let's not let this distract from the other points that people who "don't like Morrison" are making viz. his attitude as well as that of a large part of his voter base towards climate change prevention and preparation and the possible role it has had in bringing this situation about.

I don't think selling water to China whilst being in a 3 year drought is a smart move either. 

[ithuriel]

Always thought it would be the Israelis but it seems they have been Trumped.

 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Barrowblue said:

I don't think selling water to China whilst being in a 3 year drought is a smart move either. 

Wow, seriously?

 

That's a real big brain move right there.

[Guest MattP]

10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

The point about the fireworks is a fair one.

 

However, let's not let this distract from the other points that people who "don't like Morrison" are making viz. his attitude as well as that of a large part of his voter base towards climate change prevention and preparation and the possible role it has had in bringing this situation about.

Pretty sure Aus has had these sort of bushfires and temperatures for years.

 

By all means go for Morrison on the preparation etc for this as it appears to have been absolutely woeful but using climate change as a stick to beat him is a bit daft and it's obviously politically motivated. Whether he and his supporters believe it or not wouldn't make a blind bit of difference whatever action they had or hadn't taken.

[Barrowblue]

7 minutes ago, MattP said:

Pretty sure Aus has had these sort of bushfires and temperatures for years.

 

By all means go for Morrison on the preparation etc for this as it appears to have been absolutely woeful but using climate change as a stick to beat him is a bit daft and it's obviously politically motivated. Whether he and his supporters believe it or not wouldn't make a blind bit of difference whatever action they had or hadn't taken.

Pretty much agree with what you've said regards Morrison.

 

However, the fires on this scale are rare. It's hard to filter between the anti Morrison media and the actual impact on people's lives and livelihoods. Much of which is being used to score points. 

 

Obviously the Aussies will put us all right when the wake up. 

Edited 3 January 2020 by Barrowblue

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Pretty sure Aus has had these sort of bushfires and temperatures for years.

 

By all means go for Morrison on the preparation etc for this as it appears to have been absolutely woeful but using climate change as a stick to beat him is a bit daft and it's obviously politically motivated. Whether he and his supporters believe it or not wouldn't make a blind bit of difference whatever action they had or hadn't taken.

I disagree - his attitude towards climate change has an awful lot to do towards the preparation taken for events like this. After all, if you don't think climate change is going to make events like this fiercer then why take those extra preparatory steps?

 

This kind of event didn't spring out of thin air - this kind of event has been warned against for a long time as a result of increases in overall global temperatures. Morrison and his government chose to ignore those warnings.

[Guesty]

43 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You / the media / people who don't like Morrison are conflating issues here. 

Yes clearly people who are volunteer firefighters shouldn't have benefits stopped, and I am sure that change is imminent (unless they really are as stupid as many seem to think).  

Cancelling fireworks would have achieved nothing apart from showing they are in crisis and making many people cancel trips to Australia, others reconsider their business plans etc.  It is important to show things go on as normal for most people.  The money was already spent, so there would have been no savings, so not connected at all to your first point,

I agree with things should go on as normal, as best you can. But I think the points are somewhat linked; it wasn't just about the money. It was more the fact that they're having fireworks displays whilst a large part of the country is on fire and there's a total fire ban where the displays are happening. Plus, due to the mismanagement of the situation there's already ill feeling. If it didn't involve fire and fireworks I wouldn't have conflated the two.

 

The money has already been spent on fireworks, maybe keep them till next year and spend next years money now - especially since the firefighters still aren't being properly compensated. 

 

I agree though the fireworks are a big spectacle; you're damned if you do and damned if you don't - especially for tourism. My main point was about the benefits being stopped, which makes no sense. 

 

 

Edited 3 January 2020 by Guesty

[Barrowblue]

I did just think to myself, why they don't just pay the volunteers a wage when required. 

 

However, should a few volunteers get short for cash during a quiet bushfire season, maybe they start a little fire or two ??

 

Bit sinister, I know. 

[Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Can you unpack this a bit, Kopf? Not sure if you're taking the pov that the media think it's a good day to bury bad news, or that they're being too jingoistic, or not jingoistic enough, or something else?

There's obviously elements that are too jingoistic and there's elements that are absurdly pro-Iran/anti-American for the sake of it by default. But it's not really that, whilst some of the coverage from people that actually know what they're on about is top class, generally so much of it is really poor. It is to be expected when dealing with an immeasurably complex country within a complex region that requires years of observation and study to really understand in which case just stop with the dreadful takes. Far too much focus on low probability sensationalism and projecting Iran as mightier than it is over informed nuance of the situation. That's not to say there aren't legitimate takes that point in that direction if conveyed alongside quality analysis but seldom is that the case.

 

My opinion: I don't think anybody should be disappointed Soleimani is dead whether it was wise or not. It hurts Iran hugely but they were always warned that if they overstepped the mark then they would suffer and the balance of power is asymmetric against them. I'm sure they'll use their global network to retaliate and it could get out of hand for sure, but more likely it does something to try to save face that doesn't trigger the US and the whole situation buries itself for another six months until we go again.

[Stadt]

7 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

the coverage from people that actually know what they're on about is top class

Where is the better informed stuff posted, generally?

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

There's obviously elements that are too jingoistic and there's elements that are absurdly pro-Iran/anti-American for the sake of it by default. But it's not really that, whilst some of the coverage from people that actually know what they're on about is top class, generally so much of it is really poor. It is to be expected when dealing with an immeasurably complex country within a complex region that requires years of observation and study to really understand in which case just stop with the dreadful takes. Far too much focus on low probability sensationalism and projecting Iran as mightier than it is over informed nuance of the situation. That's not to say there aren't legitimate takes that point in that direction if conveyed alongside quality analysis but seldom is that the case.

 

My opinion: I don't think anybody should be disappointed Soleimani is dead whether it was wise or not. It hurts Iran hugely but they were always warned that if they overstepped the mark then they would suffer and the balance of power is asymmetric against them. I'm sure they'll use their global network to retaliate and it could get out of hand for sure, but more likely it does something to try to save face that doesn't trigger the US and the whole situation buries itself for another six months until we go again.

Thanks for that. I'd agree that the quality of the reporting itself is often pretty substandard sensationalism.

 

Overall my take is that I shouldn't be too sad that Soleimani is dead but doing it as a "message" to put up or shut up just reeks of arrogant powermongering/"good guy" doing bad guy things by the US, precisely because of the asymmetry you mention which means Iran will likely act in exactly the way you describe.

 

Oh, and Trump knowing that there's nothing for a re-election campaign like a good jingoistic sabre-rattle against an "other" - even if it doesn't degenerate into actual boots on the ground.

[Guest MattP]

22 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Thanks for that. I'd agree that the quality of the reporting itself is often pretty substandard sensationalism.

 

Overall my take is that I shouldn't be too sad that Soleimani is dead but doing it as a "message" to put up or shut up just reeks of arrogant powermongering/"good guy" doing bad guy things by the US, precisely because of the asymmetry you mention which means Iran will likely act in exactly the way you describe.

 

Oh, and Trump knowing that there's nothing for a re-election campaign like a good jingoistic sabre-rattle against an "other" - even if it doesn't degenerate into actual boots on the ground.

And the Democrats will have managed to find themselves trying to impeach the US president while the country is at war.

 

Well played guys

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

And the Democrats will have managed to find themselves trying to impeach the US president while the country is at war.

 

Well played guys

And isn't it just a sad indictment against a population that what you say here will indeed actually mean a lot to a lot of them viz. "but we're at warrrrr!"

 

In a vaguely sane world, a leader taking a country into a war of aggression by direct instigation (as opposed to joining a defensive war where a nation is directly and dreadfully threatened because I just know WWII is going to pop up here) should perhaps be a reason to get rid of them rather than hold on to them.

Edited 3 January 2020 by leicsmac

[leicsmac]

Oh and as can probably be expected stock in Lockheed Martin, Raytheon et al is going nuts - might be a decent time to buy.

[Guest MattP]

21 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

And isn't it just a sad indictment against a population that what you say here will indeed actually mean a lot to a lot of them viz. "but we're at warrrrr!"

 

In a vaguely sane world, a leader taking a country into a war of aggression by direct instigation (as opposed to joining a defensive war where a nation is directly and dreadfully threatened because I just know WWII is going to pop up here) should perhaps be a reason to get rid of them rather than hold on to them.

But many wouldn't view it as direct instigation given the (alleged) role played by Sulimani in the embassy attacks.

 

I think it's best to try and keep a nuanced position here rather than pile in either side of the pro or anti American viewpoint depending on how you see the World.

[ozleicester]

2 hours ago, Barrowblue said:

Pretty much agree with what you've said regards Morrison.

 

However, the fires on this scale are rare. It's hard to filter between the anti Morrison media and the actual impact on people's lives and livelihoods. Much of which is being used to score points. 

 

Obviously the Aussies will put us all right when the wake up. 

Morrison has been part of a government that has actively fought against taking action on climate change, they rolled back a carbon tax that wouldve gone some way to starting to make change.

His government actively supports growing coal mining and sales.

Conservative governments have cut funding to Bush Fire brigades while increasing rebates and funding to mining comapnies.

When 6 experienced retired fire chiefs with more than 100 years of bushfire  experience asked to meet with  him BEFORE the fire season, he refused and then ignored their suggestions.

The point scoring against Scomo (thats what he calls himself, he actually uses his twitter handle) is based in his complete inability to lead, understand or show empathy. 

Never have we had this amount of fire..particularly at this time of year, several weeks ago my local Bushfire Brigade Chief told me he had advice that the season was 8 weeks ahead of its usual levels, so at the beginning of summer the ground was at mid to late summer levels.

This is NOT normal, this is NOT typical

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-14/former-fire-chief-calls-out-pm-over-refusal-of-meeting/11705330

Edited 3 January 2020 by ozleicester

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

But many wouldn't view it as direct instigation given the (alleged) role played by Sulimani in the embassy attacks.

 

I think it's best to try and keep a nuanced position here rather than pile in either side of the pro or anti American viewpoint depending on how you see the World.

If we're looking at nuance, the man also had a pretty large role in eliminating ISIS, too.

 

TBH it's the "alleged" part that makes this all look like extrajudicial rattling the sabre to me - it's not like the man or the country he belongs to are any kind of existential threat to the US or even anywhere close to it, as Kopf elaborates on above. Though as per above the guy was unsavoury and it's not something to feel overly sad about, the way it's been done and what it might (hopefully and probably not) lead to just leaves something of a bad taste in the mouth.

[Barrowblue]

16 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Morrison has been part of a government that has actively fought against taking action on climate change, they rolled back a carbon tax that wouldve gone some way to starting to make change.

His government actively supports growing coal mining and sales.

Conservative governments have cut funding to Bush Fire brigades while increasing rebates and funding to mining comapnies.

When 6 experienced retired fire chiefs with more than 100 years of bushfire  experience asked to meet with  him BEFORE the fire season, he refused and then ignored their suggestions.

The point scoring against Scomo (thats what he calls himself, he actually uses his twitter handle) is based in his complete inability to lead, understand or show empathy. 

Never have we had this amount of fire..particularly at this time of year, several weeks ago my local Bushfire Brigade Chief told me he had advice that the season was 8 weeks ahead of its usual levels, so at the beginning of summer the ground was at mid to late summer levels.

This is NOT normal, this is NOT typical

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-14/former-fire-chief-calls-out-pm-over-refusal-of-meeting/11705330

Thanks Oz, some clarity on the guy is appreciated. 

[Guest Cujek]

2 hours ago, ithuriel said:

Always thought it would be the Israelis but it seems they have been Trumped.

 

This is going to kick off big time i fear

[LiberalFox]

The problem is nobody here knows the full picture and it comes down to whether you trust Trump and the people who advised him.