Getting brexit done!

[Innovindil]

12 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Well that's why I asked the bloody question. I thought one of you staunch brexiteers could answer, or at least say, not today, but going forward we'll be able to do...........

Not pay tax on tampons, already mentioned obviously, but it slipped through the cracks. 

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

Not pay tax on tampons, already mentioned obviously, but it slipped through the cracks. 

You think the tory will remove it 

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

You think the tory will remove it 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55502252

 

Um....Yes? 

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Oh no, I said you.

I didn’t vote for it for my personal benefit, I voted for the reasons listed above amongst others. If i voted solely for my personal benefit, I wouldn’t want freedom of movement removed as it benefits me personally. However I don’t think it benefits the country as a whole, even if it does carry pro and cons. A bit like why champagne socialists vote Labour I guess, we just care about the people at the bottom 

[Facecloth]

5 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55502252

 

Um....Yes? 

Fair enough. It make them much easier to buy with all the job losses.

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Speaking purely *as* an expat, IMO travel does often broaden the mind and the less barriers and inconveniences - legislative or otherwise - there are to people being able to do it wholesale and get the idea that they actually have rather a lot in common with people in other places, the better. 

Given we have more expats in non EU countries than we do in them, I doubt the disappearance of these small perks will dampen travel enthusiasts spirit much.

[Facecloth]

15 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Going forwards?

Sign trade deals outside the custom union. I thought you knew that? Control workers from the EU with visas ensuring we get the immigration in the right areas. (Also known as control our borders blah blah).

Make our own laws contrary to EU acts if we deem fit.

These have all been done to death, I’ve even answered them within 10-15 pages. It was the today bit that made it difficult.

So we'll never sign trade deals with no EU countries better than the ones the EU. All sounds good doing it yourself but not when you can't get as good as before. We've signed a few continuation deals, but once we actually sit down to sort out proper ones, we won't improve on what we had.

 

We always had the right to send EU national back if they didn't have work, we just never used it. 

 

We had a hand in shaping many laws in EU and always had a say as one of the 28. In terms of trading rules, we'll still have to stick to them, but without a say. And its the age old question, what laws from the EU don't you like? What do you believe had been imposed on us.

 

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I didn’t vote for it for my personal benefit, I voted for the reasons listed above amongst others. If i voted solely for my personal benefit, I wouldn’t want freedom of movement removed as it benefits me personally. However I don’t think it benefits the country as a whole, even if it does carry pro and cons. A bit like why champagne socialists vote Labour I guess, we just care about the people at the bottom 

All arguments about immigrants and what they bring and take from this country have been shown they put in more than they take out. 

[Scotch]

23 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Here's where my logic can't cope with the Scottish Nationalist position.

 

1.  They think that the UK leaving the political union with its biggest export market is a bad thing.

2.  Their solution is for Scotland to leave the political union with its biggest export market.

 

I'm certainly not saying that you can't be pro-EU and pro-SNP; of course you can.  But I don't see how you can hold those views based on viability or otherwise of international trade.  

It's not so much that we think that leaving a political union with the EU is a bad thing. It's more, leaving a political union with the EU without any other trade agreement in place which would immediately weaken us at the negotiation stages of any future potential trade partners. 

 

That's part of it. 

 

There is that we resent being dragged out the EU having only just agreed to remain in a UK that promised us that the only way to maintain or EU status would be to vote against independence. 

 

As for us leaving a trade agreement with the rUK.... ofcourse it's a good thing. It's a trade agreement that's terms were made to strongly favour one side. Re entering negotiations with that same partner would be far more beneficial to us when that same partner doesn't essentially dominate how our country is run and what we can and cannot trade....

[Strokes]

Just now, Facecloth said:

So we'll never sign trade deals with no EU countries better than the ones the EU. All sounds good doing it yourself but not when you can't get as good as before. We've signed a few continuation deals, but once we actually sit down to sort out proper ones, we won't improve on what we had.

 

 

We can sign them with countries that don’t have them with the EU.

 

Just now, Facecloth said:

 

 

 

We always had the right to send EU national back if they didn't have work, we just never used it. 
 

What’s that got to do with anything I’ve said?

 

Just now, Facecloth said:

 

We had a hand in shaping many laws in EU and always had a say as one of the 28. In terms of trading rules, we'll still have to stick to them, but without a say. And its the age old question, what laws from the EU don't you like? What do you believe had been imposed on us.

I don’t like any of them.

All of them were imposed as we didn’t vote for them.

 

Just now, Facecloth said:

 

All arguments about immigrants and what they bring and take from this country have been shown they put in more than they take out. 

They can put in much more now we can control the quality that comes in and the country can plan the amounts and plan for the infrastructure before they arrive.

 

How can we know how many schools, houses, hospitals, doctors surgeries, nurseries, dentist to provide if we have no idea how many can turn up? 

[Claridge]

Remoaners never seem to to talk about the disasters caused to the Greeks, Italians etc... by being in the EU. Its always smug, we know best non-arguments, job losses blah,blah,blah. We have lost most of our manufacturing jobs since being in the EU, they did fXXk all to protect those jobs.Losing is hard to take, but less whining might make you feel better.

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

We can sign them with countries that don’t have them with the EU.

Such as? Who are we so desperate to trade with that our nearest neighbours won't have already got a trade deal with, or be working on one that's better than we'll get anyway.

 

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

What’s that got to do with anything I’ve said?

That's controlling your borders, we just didn't  that's our fault.

 

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I don’t like any of them.

All of them were imposed as we didn’t vote for them.

Any? Name a few then and what so bad about them? We do get a vote, we elect representatives to the EU parliament. If you chose to vote in UKIP/Brexit MEP who didn't do their job and represent you, then that why. 

 

6 minutes ago, Strokes said:

They can put in much more now we can control the quality that comes in and the country can plan the amounts and plan for the infrastructure before they arrive.

 

How can we know how many schools, houses, hospitals, doctors surgeries, nurseries, dentist to provide if we have no idea how many can turn up? 

So you're saying a person skill set gives them more value? The people at the top can't do what they do without the people at the bottom, everyone has value. And if the jobs weren't there they wouldn't get them would they.

 

We don't plan for schools, drs etc even when we do. We put up housing estates to house thousands with **** all to service them. Dont blame the EU and immigration because successive governments and councils of all colours are piss poor at planning.

[Facecloth]

3 minutes ago, Claridge said:

Remoaners never seem to to talk about the disasters caused to the Greeks, Italians etc... by being in the EU. Its always smug, we know best non-arguments, job losses blah,blah,blah. We have lost most of our manufacturing jobs since being in the EU, they did fXXk all to protect those jobs.Losing is hard to take, but less whining might make you feel better.

Remainers*

 

Talk like a grown up and address people with respect and you might get some back.

 

Jobs move abroad because its too expensive to make things here. Is that the EUs fault? Is it down to the EU that Dyson ****ed off to Singapore? No, of course not. Is it due to the EU our farmers have received billions in support? Is it down to the EU that large areas of deprivation have been regenerated? I think so.

 

Our economy was on the floor before we joined, and has grown massively since. Its all well and good cherry picking something we've lost in time period, but is that always down to being in, or is it just a consequence of time moving on. The EU has given us so much more then its ever lost us.

[Scotch]

5 minutes ago, Claridge said:

Remoaners never seem to to talk about the disasters caused to the Greeks, Italians etc... by being in the EU. Its always smug, we know best non-arguments, job losses blah,blah,blah. We have lost most of our manufacturing jobs since being in the EU, they did fXXk all to protect those jobs.Losing is hard to take, but less whining might make you feel better.

Manufacturing jobs were lost in this country due to the increasing rate of minimum wage set by the government. A rise that made no difference to the average person due to the cost of living also being increased to offset it. Doing this made manufacturing in other countries (some of whom are in the EU) more attractive to businesses.

[Buce]

7 minutes ago, Claridge said:

Remoaners never seem to to talk about the disasters caused to the Greeks, Italians etc... by being in the EU. Its always smug, we know best non-arguments, job losses blah,blah,blah. We have lost most of our manufacturing jobs since being in the EU, they did fXXk all to protect those jobs.Losing is hard to take, but less whining might make you feel better.

 

That was down to Thatcher, nothing to do with being in the EU

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Such as? Who are we so desperate to trade with that our nearest neighbours won't have already got a trade deal with, or be working on one that's better than we'll get anyway.

USA is the single largest country we trade with and we don’t have a trade deal. Do you not think it might be beneficial?

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

 

That's controlling your borders, we just didn't  that's our fault.

I really don’t think we had much of an issue of non working EU migrants but if you say we do, now we can hold the government  to account for that too.

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

 

Any? Name a few then and what so bad about them? We do get a vote, we elect representatives to the EU parliament. If you chose to vote in UKIP/Brexit MEP who didn't do their job and represent you, then that why. 
 

All of them, you name one, I don’t like it.

 

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

 

So you're saying a person skill set gives them more value? The people at the top can't do what they do without the people at the bottom, everyone has value. And if the jobs weren't there they wouldn't get them would they.

 

No that’s not what I’m saying at all, I’m saying having lots of low skilled workers available (unlimited in fact) does nothing to help the prospects of the low skilled.

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

 

We don't plan for schools, drs etc even when we do. We put up housing estates to house thousands with **** all to service them. Dont blame the EU and immigration because successive governments and councils of all colours are piss poor at planning.

Nice dodge,

We can’t plan if we don’t know the numbers can we?

[Buce]

 

This must be the first time in history that a nation has renegotiated a treaty on worse terms than it had before.

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

USA is the single largest country we trade with and we don’t have a trade deal. Do you not think it might be beneficial?

I

 

The EU is currently negotiating a treaty with the US, and Biden has intimated that it will take priority over one with us.

 

All we had to do was sit tight.

[Strokes]

Just now, Buce said:

 

The EU is currently negotiating a treaty with the US, and Biden has intimated that it will take priority over one with us.

 

All we had to do was sit tight.

Biden wasn’t in charge when we voted in 2016 and TTIP was covered in mystery.

[Facecloth]

16 minutes ago, Strokes said:

USA is the single largest country we trade with and we don’t have a trade deal. Do you not think it might be beneficial?

I really don’t think we had much of an issue of non working EU migrants but if you say we do, now we can hold the government  to account for that too.

All of them, you name one, I don’t like it.

 

No that’s not what I’m saying at all, I’m saying having lots of low skilled workers available (unlimited in fact) does nothing to help the prospects of the low skilled.

Nice dodge,

We can’t plan if we don’t know the numbers can we?

I can't be arsed to split the quote 

 

The USA will be favouring the EU anyway now Biden is in. You think we'll get a better deal with them in or out the union? 

 

We always could hold our government accountable as they had the power but chose not to use it. You continued to vote for a government that failed to use it, because you believed the lies the likes of Farage kept repeating.

 

You said you don't like them, you name one you don't like, unless you don't know any of course? Its not for me to tell you what they are, you declared you hated them all, so you must have any idea what at least some of them are.

 

If there were no low skilled jobs to do, then they wouldn't get the jobs would they, and then if used the power I mention above, we could pack them back off to Europe. And as I said earlier they are bring more than they take, often creating jobs themselves. We have plenty of unskilled workers from outside the EU and apparently we do have control of that, so maybe let's tackle that first.

 

It wasn't a dodge. If you are building a new housing estate of 5000 houses, you know you'll need a certain size school, a certain size drs surgery etc. Irrelevant of how many immigrants there are, we build these estates and don't provides these services. So again immigration is irrelevant if we can't even plan for what we do know.

Edited 1 January 2021 by Facecloth

[Facecloth]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Biden wasn’t in charge when we voted in 2016 and TTIP was covered in mystery.

Its almost like they don't have an election every 4 years where everything might change.

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Its almost like they don't have an election every 4 years where everything might change.

We can’t vote on unknowns can we? I know you lefties are famous for hindsight but to have enough foresight to have predicted the last 4-5 years of American politics would be pretty incredible.

[bovril]

1 hour ago, dsr-burnley said:

Here's where my logic can't cope with the Scottish Nationalist position.

 

1.  They think that the UK leaving the political union with its biggest export market is a bad thing.

2.  Their solution is for Scotland to leave the political union with its biggest export market.

 

I'm certainly not saying that you can't be pro-EU and pro-SNP; of course you can.  But I don't see how you can hold those views based on viability or otherwise of international trade.  

I think a lot of it is wanting to feel part of Europe, and being able to live, trade and travel on the continent without any issues. Also a lot of Scots simply want to get away from being in a political union with England whom the rest of the world currently sees as a bit parochial and racist. 

 

Obviously it's emotion and identity over pragmatic economics, but I think Brexit voters should be able to sympathise with that. And unfortunately now, any arguments in favour of the union from the UK Gov now look massively hypocritical. 

[Facecloth]

Just now, Strokes said:

We can’t vote on unknowns can we? I know you lefties are famous for hindsight but to have enough foresight to have predicted the last 4-5 years of American politics would be pretty incredible.

We can't, but we can see that we are part of a strong trading block that was always likely to get a better deal. We can also see that they have a limited term president, so Trump was always gone in a max 8 years, which is much quicker than even the most optimistic brexiteer predicts we'll see any brexit benefits.

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I can't be arsed to split the quote 

 

The USA will be favouring the EU anyway now Biden is in. You think we'll get a better deal with them in or out the union? 

 

 

Yes just because I think we will get a deal.

 

9 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

 

 

We always could hold our government accountable as they had the power but chose not to use it. You continued to vote for a government that failed to use it, because you believed the lies the likes of Farage kept repeating.

Which political parties promised to use it?

 

9 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

 

You said you don't like them, you name one you don't like, unless you don't know any of course? Its not for me to tell you what they are, you declared you hated them all, so you must have any idea what at least some of them are.

 

 

I don’t like them all, I’ve said this already. 

9 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

 

If there were no low skilled jobs to do, then they would get the jobs would they, and then if used the power I mention above, we could pack them back off to Europe. And as I said earlier they are bring more than they take, often creating jobs themselves. We have plenty of unskilled workers from outside the EU and apparently we do have control of that, so maybe let's tackle that first.

 

 

It’s not about there being no low skilled Jobs to do, we have shocking productivity in this country, partly because we don’t invest in training the low skilled to be better and thus making them more valuable. 
If Labour supply is unlimited, then demand is low. Companies do not bother investing. Supply and demand is simple logic, I’m sure you must understand it, your a smart guy.

 

9 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

 

 

It wasn't a dodge. If you are building a new housing estate of 5000 houses, you know you'll need a certain size school, a certain size drs surgery etc. Irrelevant of how many immigrants there are, we build these estates and don't provides these services. So again immigration is irrelevant if we can't even plan for what we do know.

It’s still not irrelevant, the fact we are not doing it is case in point.

[Izzy]

Facecloth v Strokes heading for a 5th set decider