Getting brexit done!

[bovril]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

 

I don't 100% get your point but if you're saying that the Scots can just wait a few years for Johnson to be got rid of, I guess as the poster above points out it's not like he's the first or last Conservative PM.

I really do not want the UK to break up but I don't understand how someone can support Brexit on the basis of returning powers and decision making to Westminster but then fail to understand why Scots want to leave the union. 

[Scotch]

2 minutes ago, bovril said:

I don't 100% get your point but if you're saying that the Scots can just wait a few years for Johnson to be got rid of, I guess as the poster above points out it's not like he's the first or last Conservative PM.

I really do not want the UK to break up but I don't understand how someone can support Brexit on the basis of returning powers and decision making to Westminster but then fail to understand why Scots want to leave the union. 

I wish I could 'Like' this 1000 times over. 

[Facecloth]

5 minutes ago, bovril said:

I don't 100% get your point but if you're saying that the Scots can just wait a few years for Johnson to be got rid of, I guess as the poster above points out it's not like he's the first or last Conservative PM.

I really do not want the UK to break up but I don't understand how someone can support Brexit on the basis of returning powers and decision making to Westminster but then fail to understand why Scots want to leave the union. 

Its also not like they have been happy under a labour or tory government.

[Strokes]

7 minutes ago, bovril said:

I don't 100% get your point but if you're saying that the Scots can just wait a few years for Johnson to be got rid of, I guess as the poster above points out it's not like he's the first or last Conservative PM.

I really do not want the UK to break up but I don't understand how someone can support Brexit on the basis of returning powers and decision making to Westminster but then fail to understand why Scots want to leave the union. 

I have no problem with the Scots if they chose to leave the union. Nor any other nation. I had the same opinion in Indy ref 1, that if it’s what they choose democratically to do, then I can’t understand the opposition either.

I have lots of Scottish friends and most of them want independence but they haven’t mentioned Boris as a reason to me.

My reply was more a cheeky dig at the other quote than your statement.

Edited 2 January 2021 by Strokes

[Scotch]

5 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Its also not like they have been happy under a labour or tory government.

We can't really be happy under ANY government that we don't have a say in electing. That's the primary point. 

 

The second is that no matter what government is in power, as a minority population, scotland and its needs will never be the priority of Westminster. The government have to appease the majority to maintain power and Scotland will never be that majority, they dont need to keep us sweet. 

 

Simply put, we want to select a government that has our interest at heart and the only way to do that is with independence.

[FoxesDeb]

3 hours ago, Strokes said:

Job openings come and go all the time, it won’t stop people who want to emigrate from emigrating. It might change their target destination but it won’t stop them.

I have to agree with this, albeit from a personal perspective. We always knew we wanted to emigrate, before Covid happened we were planning for it to be in 2025. We looked at many places, and as the opportunity came up much earlier than we expected, we've chosen Spain. But we looked as far away as Vietnam, so if Spain hadn't been an option we would just have gone elsewhere. Brexit hasn't really made a difference, we were going anyway. 

[Clever Fox]

26 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

I have to agree with this, albeit from a personal perspective. We always knew we wanted to emigrate, before Covid happened we were planning for it to be in 2025. We looked at many places, and as the opportunity came up much earlier than we expected, we've chosen Spain. But we looked as far away as Vietnam, so if Spain hadn't been an option we would just have gone elsewhere. Brexit hasn't really made a difference, we were going anyway. 

Just curious, What was your reasons for emigrating.?

[FoxesDeb]

24 minutes ago, Clever Fox said:

Just curious, What was your reasons for emigrating.

 

We've moved here to a comparable house from the one we had in the UK, but with a bigger plot, a pool, and amazing mountain views for under £100k, around a third of the cost of the UK house. The weather is far better, the people are nicer, the lifestyle is much better, and the cost of living is so much lower. 

For us it was an easy choice, the UK didn't really stand a chance in comparison. 

 

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

 

We've moved here to a comparable house from the one we had in the UK, but with a bigger plot, a pool, and amazing mountain views for under £100k, around a third of the cost of the UK house. The weather is far better, the people are nicer, the lifestyle is much better, and the cost of living is so much lower. 

For us it was an easy choice, the UK didn't really stand a chance in comparison. 

 

Sounds lovely,

Did you both get new jobs debs or did you carry on with yours as I think you said you could work remotely?

[Clever Fox]

1 hour ago, FoxesDeb said:

 

We've moved here to a comparable house from the one we had in the UK, but with a bigger plot, a pool, and amazing mountain views for under £100k, around a third of the cost of the UK house. The weather is far better, the people are nicer, the lifestyle is much better, and the cost of living is so much lower. 

For us it was an easy choice, the UK didn't really stand a chance in comparison. 

 

Thanks for your honest reply.  So it's for pretty much the same reasons as the majority who have done the same.

 

The Weather aside which we can't do anything about but all your other reasons are very valid. The level of negativity in the uk is staggering. People are having to do more just to stand still and the system seems to fight them all the way. .There's too much pettiness, Etc and it starts with the Government.

People who move abroad have had enough of the Cronyism while continuing to pull the rug out from under ordinary people who are just trying to live.

The Uk has big problems which are only going to get worse unless the Gov get a grip and listen to people.

 

Good luck with your decision and I sincerely hope it continues to work out for you as you sound like you're very happy with life now.

 

Cheers. 

 

[stix]

1 hour ago, FoxesDeb said:

 

We've moved here to a comparable house from the one we had in the UK, but with a bigger plot, a pool, and amazing mountain views for under £100k, around a third of the cost of the UK house. The weather is far better, the people are nicer, the lifestyle is much better, and the cost of living is so much lower. 

For us it was an easy choice, the UK didn't really stand a chance in comparison. 

 

Wow I didn’t realise you had already upped sticks!! Congrats!!! 

[Scotch]

19 minutes ago, Clever Fox said:

Thanks for your honest reply.  So it's for pretty much the same reasons as the majority who have done the same.

 

The Weather aside which we can't do anything about but all your other reasons are very valid. The level of negativity in the uk is staggering. People are having to do more just to stand still and the system seems to fight them all the way. .There's too much pettiness, Etc and it starts with the Government.

People who move abroad have had enough of the Cronyism while continuing to pull the rug out from under ordinary people who are just trying to live.

The Uk has big problems which are only going to get worse unless the Gov get a grip and listen to people.

 

Good luck with your decision and I sincerely hope it continues to work out for you as you sound like you're very happy with life now.

 

Cheers. 

 

Absolutely spot on. 

 

One of the major issues we have is that (most of) the MP's sitting in Parliment right aren't a fair representation of the people they are supposed to represent. 

 

At one point, two thirds of the cabinet were millionaires, 79% were privately educated, around 80% were landlords, 6.3% were ethnic..... How can these people fairly and accurately represent the likes of me n you? 

[FoxesDeb]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Sounds lovely,

Did you both get new jobs debs or did you carry on with yours as I think you said you could work remotely?

I am going to carry on WFH, and my husband took voluntary redundancy in August. 

 

We've met plenty of people who made the move younger than us and still needed to work, and so far nobody we have met would return to the UK. 

 

[FoxesDeb]

10 minutes ago, stix said:

Wow I didn’t realise you had already upped sticks!! Congrats!!! 

Yes we made the move three weeks ago. E decided to stay with her Dad, she needs to finish school and she didn't want to leave her friends. I'm just hoping she will decide to join us once she's finished her GCSEs, hopefully once she's been out here she won't want to go back! 

[dsr-burnley]

8 hours ago, Clever Fox said:

It has already made a difference. I know a few lads who have made Portugal their home years. Two were happy just to live their on their uk passport. One made the full transition years ago when he decided to stay.  He had a UK and a Portuguese Passport and that suited him fine as he came home regularly to visit his elderly Mother.

When he went to renew his PT Passport recently they took his Uk passport off him. Now he's a EU citizen but has lost the flexibility having both Passports gave him,

In the case of the first two. The legal system closing in on them made it necessary to take out residency. Little things like endless paperwork, or visits to Doctors and Hospitals.

Siilarly with the Cars. One had a uk reg Jag which he drove for years their even though he was stopped many times. Then all of a sudden he was being stopped daily and advised to 

remove it from the Country or transfer to a pt reg. Though he loved his Jag. He sold it and bought a pt car as he said he was getting too much hassle.

 

So to say it won't make a difference is not correct, It already has..

So Brexit is inconvenient for Portuguese citizens living in Portugal.  Should we care?  When the Portuguese go do the polls, do they consider the effect on people in England?

[FoxesDeb]

6 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

So Brexit is inconvenient for Portuguese citizens living in Portugal.  Should we care?  When the Portuguese go do the polls, do they consider the effect on people in England?

The examples @Clever Foxgave are not all Portuguese citizens though, they are British. Being legally resident in a country does not make one a citizen. 

[Nick]

26 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

The examples @Clever Foxgave are not all Portuguese citizens though, they are British. Being legally resident in a country does not make one a citizen. 

Hi Deb,

 

Great news about the move! Where abouts are you? Keep me posted and I hope it brings you every happiness.

 

N x

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, Lestahfan35 said:

Im a long time lurker and first time poster on this forum having followed the football threads and this one really closely for a long time.

 

I dont know if you are trying to be clever, but ive seen you post over a long time. Theres a little group of you, a little "brexiteer" clan, and you are the physical embodiment of why people formerly known as "remainers" or "remoaners" or whatever you like to call them think that you are stupid.

 

Its because you try with all your might to pretend there is some clever, rational, morally superior reason why the UK should be punching itself in the face that "remoaners" just cannot understand because they arent as enlightened and nationalistic as you are, and everyone with any kind of intelligence can see right through it.

 

Your desire is to make the UK more isolated, less global, more protectionist, in a desperate attempt to turn the UK back into wheat fields, spitfire piloting, tea and crumpets, Benny Hill and Alf Garnett comedy, and the days where mummy paid for everything.

 

All of the stuff people of your beliefs parrot can be debunked in 2 mins. Theres absolutely no point going over old ground debunking it again, in a discussion that inevitably ends in a game of brexi-bingo that involves the words "you lost", "get over it", "sovrinteeeee" or "unelected bureaucrats".

 

So in response to the question what could you do today that you couldn't yesterday, which is clearly to paraphrase "give a benefit to leaving that we have gained as a result of your decision" you tried to instigate a petty discussion that saw you desperately trying to duck a question you couldnt answer, pretend not to understand an analogy and virtue signal about amputees for reasons unknown, before reverting to "i cant tell you any benefits. I dont have to. you lost".

 

First of all, you should be aware now that:

 

• The UK has signed a trade deal that means the UK cannot deviate from standards, government subsidies, environmental regulations etc in such a way that the UK has unfair competitive advantage over the EU. If there is, then a supranational court who acts in arbitration of the two sides of the agreement can impose tariff penalties on the other side.

So straight away, your bogus claims about "making our own rules" and having complete sovereignty have gone out of the window. Its a comprimise, its a sharing of sovereignty which directly contradicts your core beliefs and that there should be no supranational court above the UK either.

Quite, yes we have had to give up a bit of sovereignty to do the deal, I wish it wasn’t the case but we are closer to a sovereign nation now than we were 3 days ago, so there are still causes to celebrate.

 

Quote

 

• Weve signed an agreement on fishing which was one of your central campaigning bases that actual fishermen hate and think is a sellout. Because EU boats will still be catching "our" (as you would put it) fish over a 5 year transition period. If after the transition period ends, the UK was to "take back its waters" the EU could put a tariff on fish exports. Because we dont catch the fish that we eat. What sense does it make to potentially be able to catch more fish and then ruin your market opportunities to buy and sell in??? and not forgetting, British fleets SOLD OFF their own quotas in the time around the "cod wars" in the first place.

 

Again you aren’t wrong, I would have preferred we kept more of our fishing water and I wish we could have got more in the trade deal but I’m a reasonable guy that’s happy to compromise. It’s better than what we had 3 days ago, so I’m happy overall 

 

Quote

 

 

• Services make up 80% of our economy and the biggest sector of our exports. They are barely covered in the deal in terms of things like recognition of qualifications and standards by governments, the amount of time a service provider can stay in a country could be comprimised, the loss of passporting in the financial sector etc.

I could go on, but ive made my point. However much you try to pretend it was about something else, YOU were sold the belief you would have the same access to the single market without any costs, you were persuaded that the NHS would be receiving £350 million a week, you were sold the belief that we would "take back control".....that there would be a "bonfire of red tape". And its not true. Theres more red tape, theres less freedom, and there are still rules.

 

So the deal absolutely fails. But of course, you will have to pretend its exactly what you wanted. (Even in spite of the fact 2 weeks ago you probably wanted WTO).

I won’t try and pretend anything, I don’t lurk until after the outcome so I can pick a side or and try and make myself look clever. 
My opinions are documented on this thread, have a look if you want.

I would have preferred a no deal over this deal maybe 9 months ago but since the Coronavirus outbreak has decimated global economies, what we voted for 2016 doesn’t seem quite as relevant or important today. So I’m happy with what’s been done, could it have been better? Yes

Could it have been worse? Yes.

 

Quote

 

So, you put the question "what could I not do today that I could have done yesterday".....well we might not LITERALLY be talking a day later, but in the near future....

 

• If i want to employ someone, then ill have to follow the rules of the new "points based immigration system", their qualifications might not carry the same equivalence as they previously did, and i potentially have a smaller talent pool to pick from depending on what industry im in for no apparent reason and to absolutely nobodies benefit, except PERHAPS the vast swathes of highly qualified British workers who could do all the jobs the country needs like NHS vacancies, but because of the existence of Lithuanians they turn down and decide to sit on their couch instead.

 

 

I can’t work out here if you’re claiming the British won’t work because they are lazy or racist or both.

I bet you don’t include yourself in though as you seem to think you’re superior.

Quote

 

 

 

• I have to deal with the fact that migrants dont want to come and work in the same way anyway, as some see our country as inward looking, backward and unwelcoming (this is annecdotal evidence, but im sure it will be true for others).

 

 

I’m sure there are individual cases of it being true

And migration from the EU is much lower than it was, however migration from non EU countries is up massively, which we have control over and can ensure that the individuals provide a large benefit to our economy.

I don’t see a negative, unless you don’t like brown faces of course?

Quote

 

 

 

• If i was a student, maybe i would like to participate in the Erasmus scheme, where I could gain cultural and work experience whilst learning across Europe. Well, now I cant.

 

It is a shame.

Lets see what this replacement scheme looks like before we judge though.

 

Quote

 

 

• I cant go to an EU country for more than 90 days in a 180 day period. Could affect me a number of ways. Unless I pay for a visa. And then pay more roaming charges. And higher insurance premiums. And other red tape. On top of the fact that brexit has tanked the pound meaning exchange rates are worse if it was a holiday for example.

 

Yeah I’m sorry that any holiday over 90 days has put an inconvenience your way, but most of us can’t afford that. what is it they say? Ok boomer.

 

The pound tanking wasn’t terrific buts still the 4th or 5th strongest currency out there and holds very good value. 

 

Quote

 

 

 

• I have to spend time and cost dealing with red tape if i want to import and export goods that i never had to do previously, making my business less efficient. I might need to pay a freight forwarder to do it for me, so I incur a needless cost.

 

43% of our exports and 34% of our imports happens with countries of which we had no deal with at all. WTO terms.

We can now pursue deals here and make this trade with much less friction and on a par with what we now have with the EU.

That’s over a third of imports and over two fifths of exports, those figure could be higher if these barriers were not place, using your own logic of course. 
The world is a big place and the EU is fraction of it, you having to fill in a few forms, so we can decide who we want to trade with and what tariffs are proportional is a small price to pay in my opinion.

 

Quote

 

 

• If i was involved in a job that had a dependence on ERC funding like friends jobs are, these could be under threat if there is a change to the allocation of funding, not to mention smaller talent pools for research projects.

 

We paid more in than we took out, hopefully the UK government will pay into research but they may decide our money is better spent elsewhere. However at least it is our choice to make, even if you don’t agree with the choice.

Quote

 

• If i was involved in farming, something would have to replace the subsidies i would receive through the Common Agricultural Policy, which might be a smaller amount than through the CAP, and probably mean some farmers will just go bust

 

See the above reply.

Quote

And many many more examples.

 

They might not happen TOMORROW, but theyll all certainly happen in the near future, and certainly within the next 50 years, which is when we are supposed to judge the success of brexit according to Jacob Rees Mogg. Hes the man that you hang on every word he says remember. Hes the man who didnt understand a Canada + trade deal and tariffs either. Look it up online its easy to find.

 

But above all else now your question has been answered, dont try and pretend there is some clever reason you voted brexit, there isnt.

 

And if you and your brexit chums cant stand the odd left of centre perhaps slightly woke maybe 0.5% liberal metropolitan elite person pointing out the bad parts of brexit and questioning why you decided to make their life worse, rejoice in the fact you "won", understand free speech is a thing, and above all else.

 

 

I’ve never claimed that there are no bad parts to brexit and why you feel you have to attempt to make my arguments for me before I’ve responded i don’t know. It seems to me maybe you think you are superior, which isn’t a pleasant trait but you will fit in here well with it. So welcome. 

Edited 3 January 2021 by Strokes
Edited the abuse out of the original post as it’s been deleted. So hopefully the reply stays.

[leicsmac]

18 minutes ago, Strokes said:

 (On Erasmus) It is a shame.

Lets see what this replacement scheme looks like before we judge though.

 

 

(On scientific research) We paid more in than we took out, hopefully the UK government will pay into research but they may decide our money is better spent elsewhere. However at least it is our choice to make, even if you don’t agree with the choice. See the above reply.

 

 

On these two matters in particular, as they're areas that I have a certain interest in:

 

- What makes you think the replacement scheme will be anywhere as inclusive (and therefore effective) as Erasmus was when the UK government could simply have asked to hold onto it in negotiations if they were really interested in such schemes at all?

 

- Same on the second matter, really: if the UK really wanted to keep that research budget going they would have probably included it in a deal and saved on the disruption. Which means they are likely going to leave researchers high and dry rather than that, which also begs the question: I'm extremely interested in knowing how money can be "better spent" in any way than on research for the future on various scientific matters, whether by the UK or any other entity - or more to the point, how it gets in the firing line where other less important areas might not.

[Strokes]

Just now, leicsmac said:

On these two matters in particular, as they're areas that I have a certain interest in:

 

- What makes you think the replacement scheme will be anywhere as inclusive (and therefore effective) as Erasmus was when the UK government could simply have asked to hold onto it in negotiations if they were really interested in such schemes at all?

 

Nothing makes me think it will be as inclusive or not. I don’t know anything about it yet as the details aren’t available.

I can’t really judge it until they are.

Just now, leicsmac said:

- Same on the second matter, really: if the UK really wanted to keep that research budget going they would have probably included it in a deal and saved on the disruption. Which means they are likely going to leave researchers high and dry rather than that, which also begs the question: I'm extremely interested in knowing how money can be "better spent" in any way than on research for the future on various scientific matters, whether by the UK or any other entity - or more to the point, how it gets in the firing line where other less important areas might not.

Perhaps the price asked for by the EU was disproportionate to the perceived benefits. We can’t possibly know what went on the negotiations and whether it was a realistic option that we could stay in the program.

As for better spent, perhaps the term was a tad clumsy and I might have been a bit more thoughtful if I was responding to yourself.

Lets say allocated to other important areas.

[Claridge]

15 hours ago, bovril said:

I don't 100% get your point but if you're saying that the Scots can just wait a few years for Johnson to be got rid of, I guess as the poster above points out it's not like he's the first or last Conservative PM.

I really do not want the UK to break up but I don't understand how someone can support Brexit on the basis of returning powers and decision making to Westminster but then fail to understand why Scots want to leave the union. 

 Seems strange that the people so keen to leave the union want to join another on though.Especially as they will have to pay into that one. Mind you, whenever there is a vote they don't vote to leave anyway.The opinion polls may say otherwise,but then we all know they can't be trusted.

[reynard]

14 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

 

We've moved here to a comparable house from the one we had in the UK, but with a bigger plot, a pool, and amazing mountain views for under £100k, around a third of the cost of the UK house. The weather is far better, the people are nicer, the lifestyle is much better, and the cost of living is so much lower. 

For us it was an easy choice, the UK didn't really stand a chance in comparison. 

 

Says it all really. Good luck to you.

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Nothing makes me think it will be as inclusive or not. I don’t know anything about it yet as the details aren’t available.

I can’t really judge it until they are.

 

We don't know much about it yet, no, however, once again, it is simply logical to suggest that if the UK government were interested in such inclusive schemes, they wouldn't have ditched Erasmus in the first place, and so it implies that they are not as interested in such things, hence they would not have the motivation to replace it with something as good.

 

17 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Perhaps the price asked for by the EU was disproportionate to the perceived benefits. We can’t possibly know what went on the negotiations and whether it was a realistic option that we could stay in the program.

As for better spent, perhaps the term was a tad clumsy and I might have been a bit more thoughtful if I was responding to yourself.

Lets say allocated to other important areas.

Thank you for the clarification there.

 

Of course, the negotiations are very much a closed book, but in the absence of that we take at face value the fact that the UK government is now looking to bring such research in-house for the most part.

 

If they think they can afford - in monetary and human resources - to match the standard of collaborative resources of the EU to produce similar outcomes...then I do wish them the best of luck and hope they do, but it seems like something of a long shot given the resources required.

 

If they have no intention of matching that standard...well, that's probably more honest but it's also a horrible dereliction of the duty the UK should be carrying out wrt world scientific research,

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Claridge said:

 Seems strange that the people so keen to leave the union want to join another on though.Especially as they will have to pay into that one. Mind you, whenever there is a vote they don't vote to leave anyway.The opinion polls may say otherwise,but then we all know they can't be trusted.

They seemed to be ok (with a margin of error) about the man heading into the White House later this month though...

 

(Despite all the con artistry the current occupant and his followers are attempting.)

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

We don't know much about it yet, no, however, once again, it is simply logical to suggest that if the UK government were interested in such inclusive schemes, they wouldn't have ditched Erasmus in the first place, and so it implies that they are not as interested in such things, hence they would not have the motivation to replace it with something as good.

 

Thank you for the clarification there.

 

Of course, the negotiations are very much a closed book, but in the absence of that we take at face value the fact that the UK government is now looking to bring such research in-house for the most part.

 

If they think they can afford - in monetary and human resources - to match the standard of collaborative resources of the EU to produce similar outcomes...then I do wish them the best of luck and hope they do, but it seems like something of a long shot given the resources required.

 

If they have no intention of matching that standard...well, that's probably more honest but it's also a horrible dereliction of the duty the UK should be carrying out wrt world scientific research,

There isn’t much I can disagree with you on this, you’re sceptical with good reason and if I’m honest, I don’t see how it can be as encompassing as a pooled approach. That hopefully doesn’t mean we abandon it altogether.

 

I don’t doubt my knowledge on scientific research pales into insignificance compared to yours and others on here but I do hope we prevail to see plenty of successes on this island all the same. My 10 year old boy is completely besotted with science and astrology and his knowledge puts mine to shame. Time will tell.