Getting brexit done!

[StanSP]

35 minutes ago, Claridge said:

Remoaners never seem to to talk about the disasters caused to the Greeks, Italians etc... by being in the EU. Its always smug, we know best non-arguments, job losses blah,blah,blah. We have lost most of our manufacturing jobs since being in the EU, they did fXXk all to protect those jobs.Losing is hard to take, but less whining might make you feel better.

Are you just brushing off 'job losses' as something not to worry about? Very weird take. 

 

Maybe we'll 'whine' less if it was clear what the advantages would be. And not just having a different coloured passport which weirdly got far too much attention for being a plus point as if it was some kind of solidarity pact of being British and regaining sovereignty. Newsflash - it didn't. It's just a different colour and you got sucked in to it.. 

 

What are the advantages of Brexit so far please? Make me 'whine' less. Sell it. Maybe it might consist of properly-prepared documents that don't include references to defunct systems like Netscape or Mozilla. I have so much faith in our government to do right by all of us on the back of that, and everything else they seem to be absolutely nailing right now

 

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

We can't, but we can see that we are part of a strong trading block that was always likely to get a better deal. We can also see that they have a limited term president, so Trump was always gone in a max 8 years, which is much quicker than even the most optimistic brexiteer predicts we'll see any brexit benefits.

TLDR, it was Obama in charge in 2016. Trump was joke that the world thought wouldn’t happen.

[pleatout]

I am still waiting for a list (ok, just one) of those looney eurocrat rules that will now be repealed, that farage etc have been banging on about for 30 odd years.

 

Just one...

 

Oh and on the Tampon Tax.  This says more about our feckless and spineless politicians that it does about EU law.  What would happen if a country refused to charge VAT on tampons?   Would they be thrown out?  I'm not sure if folk are aware but just over 50% of the population of EVERY EU member state are female!

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Facecloth v Strokes heading for a 5th set decider

He loves the last word, I’m just annoying him. 

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

TLDR, it was Obama in charge in 2016. Trump was joke that the world thought wouldn’t happen.

 

So, the Democrats were in charge when we voted?

 

Like now, so it defeats your argument about Brexit being better for a US trade deal.

[Scotch]

2 minutes ago, bovril said:

I think a lot of it is wanting to feel part of Europe, and being able to live, trade and travel on the continent without any issues. Also a lot of Scots simply want to get away from being in a political union with England whom the rest of the world currently sees as a bit parochial and racist. 

 

Obviously it's emotion and identity over pragmatic economics, but I think Brexit voters should be able to sympathise with that. And unfortunately now, any arguments in favour of the union from the UK Gov now look massively hypocritical. 

It really comes down to wanting a say in how our country is run. As it stands, we don't have one. Yes, we have devolved powers that Grants us somewhat of a say but when it comes to bigger picture issues like being part of the EU, housing Nuclear weapons or even who runs our country, by and large, even if everyone in scotland voted the same way it would make no difference to General election results. We get what the English vote for, and the English will vote for what suits them (and rightly so). All we ask is the same luxury. 

[Strokes]

Just now, Buce said:

 

So, the Democrats were in charge when we voted?

 

Like now, so it defeats your argument about Brexit being better for a US trade deal.

Not at all, the EU and US ttip negotiations had been halted and Obama was guaranteed to be on his way in November.

I can’t vote on what I don’t know is still valid.

[Spudulike]

I appreciate that most of us would like to go back to 2016 if only for a brief moment (me included) but we can't.

 

The referendum happened. As interesting as this debate is we can't change the outcome. We have left, for better or worse and argument is futile. 

 

Its 2021, a new start. I'm with Jess Phillips, its time to ditch all this remain and leave label stuff. Things will get better in the end. If it doesn't then its not the end. 

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Yes just because I think we will get a deal.

 

Which political parties promised to use it?

 

I don’t like them all, I’ve said this already. 

It’s not about there being no low skilled Jobs to do, we have shocking productivity in this country, partly because we don’t invest in training the low skilled to be better and thus making them more valuable. 
If Labour supply is unlimited, then demand is low. Companies do not bother investing. Supply and demand is simple logic, I’m sure you must understand it, your a smart guy.

 

It’s still not irrelevant, the fact we are not doing it is case in point.

Well I think we won't when there's a trading block of 400m customers also trying to get one. A trading block we were part of, so could have been in on that deal.

 

If they didn't promise it, but still parrotted the idea we couldn't, surely we need to ask why they didn't. We still had the power and it wS never the fault of the EU. Why would a political party give the idea they were powerless went they weren't?

 

No, you hate them all, so you must know at least some. Let's not be silly and act like grown ups here mate. Its pretty simple. If I say I don't like any cheese, then surely I must be able to name some I've tried, not ask you to list them all so I can confirm I don't like them.

 

We have shocking productivity because as a nation we are lazy ****ers. Some of the most productive people are from the EU. There a Polish girl on my team at work and she's bloody awesomely efficient and always there to help.

Is labour supply unlimited though? We only have to jobs we have, they can only be filled if there are jobs to be done. Employees might be more readily available with free movement, but they will only come here if its desirable in some way, so we have to invest and pay more to make it so. People won't come here if the prospect aren't an improvement on what they already have.

 

It is irrelevant. My housing estate was built in 2012, before I moved in. Theres a probably a thousand dwellings here, along with a few other new estates nearby. Now whether the people moving in here in 2012 came from Leicester or Lithuania, there was no provision for services put in place when these were built. Thats nothing to do with immigration, it's just piss poor planning.

[Facecloth]

15 minutes ago, Strokes said:

TLDR, it was Obama in charge in 2016. Trump was joke that the world thought wouldn’t happen.

Which makes it even worse. We knew Obama was going, we thought trump wouldn't get in, we knew Obama favoured the EU, as would Clinton, like Biden. So we thought we were on a path to a presidency that would favour a deal with the EU yet voted to leave it.

[ajthefox]

I'm not sure what the point of this type of argument is at this juncture.

 

I think we have lost some big, tangible things here and I understand why people are upset, but there is no point continuing to cry over milk we spilt 4 years ago - especially when the vast majority of people do simply want what is best but might see different ways of getting there. We all need to put our best foot forward and do what we can to improve the industries we work in and the communities we live in as best as possible.

 

Think global, act local is a good mantra, and it has never been clearer to me, pandemic and Brexit and all, that that is the best way most of us can effect positive, tangible change.

Edited 1 January 2021 by ajthefox

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Well I think we won't when there's a trading block of 400m customers also trying to get one. A trading block we were part of, so could have been in on that deal.

 

It won’t be better if they can’t agree a deal and we do.

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

 

If they didn't promise it, but still parrotted the idea we couldn't, surely we need to ask why they didn't. We still had the power and it wS never the fault of the EU. Why would a political party give the idea they were powerless went they weren't?

 

No idea, they are all cùnts.

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

No, you hate them all, so you must know at least some. Let's not be silly and act like grown ups here mate. Its pretty simple. If I say I don't like any cheese, then surely I must be able to name some I've tried, not ask you to list them all so I can confirm I don't like them.

Of course I know them, I could google them if I didn’t. I dislike all of them because of what they stand for and how they were conceived. Feel free to bring any up for debate if you wish, I’ve given you a big enough scope.

 

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

 

We have shocking productivity because as a nation we are lazy ****ers. Some of the most productive people are from the EU. There a Polish girl on my team at work and she's bloody awesomely efficient and always there to help.

Is labour supply unlimited though? We only have to jobs we have, they can only be filled if there are jobs to be done. Employees might be more readily available with free movement, but they will only come here if its desirable in some way, so we have to invest and pay more to make it so. People won't come here if the prospect aren't an improvement on what they already have.

That’s a bit racist calling the British lazy. 

 

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

 

It is irrelevant. My housing estate was built in 2012, before I moved in. Theres a probably a thousand dwellings here, along with a few other new estates nearby. Now whether the people moving in here in 2012 came from Leicester or Lithuania, there was no provision for services put in place when these were built. Thats nothing to do with immigration, it's just piss poor planning.

It still doesn’t answer how you expect them to plan without knowledge, even if your housing estate was shit and you local council crap. They can’t all be, can they?

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Which makes it even worse. We knew Obama was going, we thought trump wouldn't get in, we knew Obama favoured the EU, as would Clinton, like Biden. So we thought we were on a path to a presidency that would favour a deal with the EU yet voted to leave it.

Obama’s administrations trade talks with the EU had reached an impasse, why were we to think Clinton would take it up again? TTIP had been going on for years....Unless you know more than was published at the time?

[Claridge]

29 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Are you just brushing off 'job losses' as something not to worry about? Very weird take. 

 

Maybe we'll 'whine' less if it was clear what the advantages would be. And not just having a different coloured passport which weirdly got far too much attention for being a plus point as if it was some kind of solidarity pact of being British and regaining sovereignty. Newsflash - it didn't. It's just a different colour and you got sucked in to it.. 

 

What are the advantages of Brexit so far please? Make me 'whine' less. Sell it. Maybe it might consist of properly-prepared documents that don't include references to defunct systems like Netscape or Mozilla. I have so much faith in our government to do right by all of us on the back of that, and everything else they seem to be absolutely nailing right now

 

You are just second guessing about job losses to fit your narrative. You don’t mention job gains or give a scrap of evidence, but demand it from others. 

[Facecloth]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It won’t be better if they can’t agree a deal and we do.

No idea, they are all cùnts.

Of course I know them, I could google them if I didn’t. I dislike all of them because of what they stand for and how they were conceived. Feel free to bring any up for debate if you wish, I’ve given you a big enough scope.

 

That’s a bit racist calling the British lazy. 

 

It still doesn’t answer how you expect them to plan without knowledge, even if your housing estate was shit and you local council crap. They can’t all be, can they?

But they are more likely to agree one.

 

Something we can agree on

 

So you don't hate them as such, just how they a constructed, even if we have a huge say on them, and often a veto. Or did have a say I should say.

 

Its not racist, is proven by the figures. As a nation we are lazy. Its a stereotype, but it is for a reason. 

 

Nobody is asking them to plan without knowledge, but when they are planning, they aren't putting provisions in place. Yes of course they all can be, we've just agreed they are all ***** haven't we.

[Facecloth]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Obama’s administrations trade talks with the EU had reached an impasse, why were we to think Clinton would take it up again? TTIP had been going on for years....Unless you know more than was published at the time?

So if a trading block of 450m (including us at the time) had reached an impasse with a president who would favoured that trading block over a potentially separate UK, and you thought we were going to get another president who favoured that block over the UK were it separate, and we now have another president who favours it, what did and does make you think we are or were likely to get a trade deal or a better trade deal than said trading block?

[Heathrow fox]

20 minutes ago, bovril said:

I think a lot of it is wanting to feel part of Europe, and being able to live, trade and travel on the continent without any issues. Also a lot of Scots simply want to get away from being in a political union with England whom the rest of the world currently sees as a bit parochial and racist. 

 

Obviously it's emotion and identity over pragmatic economics, but I think Brexit voters should be able to sympathise with that. And unfortunately now, any arguments in favour of the union from the UK Gov now look massively hypocritical. 

England and Scotland have got 300 years of union at stake here.Together they controlled a huge empire.Went through the industrial revolution.Stood up against fascism and fought side by side in two world wars.Not to mention we share a relatively small island as one country.We speak the same language.Spend the same currency,watch the same tv and all get to vote for who governs us.Splitting islands in half rarely ends well. 

 

So I don’t think it would be hypocritical of this government or anybody who voted leave,to think that Scotland leaving the Union would be such a good idea.It is so so different to Britain leaving the EU.I also find it strange that a nationalist organisation is being held up as some sort of beacon of light by some sections of the left.

[Costock_Fox]

Someone needs to check on their dad in Countesthorpe, he’s taken divorce hard

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

But they are more likely to agree one.

 

Something we can agree on

 

So you don't hate them as such, just how they a constructed, even if we have a huge say on them, and often a veto. Or did have a say I should say.

Just because we had a say doesn’t mean I can dislike it.

Its like me saying you can’t dislike brexit because we chose it.

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

 

Its not racist, is proven by the figures. As a nation we are lazy. Its a stereotype, but it is for a reason. 
 

Let’s see them then? I’ve never seen the study that says we have something in our genes that makes us idle.

 

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

 

Nobody is asking them to plan without knowledge, but when they are planning, they aren't putting provisions in place. Yes of course they all can be, we've just agreed they are all ***** haven't we.

Right, so you agree we can’t plan properly with freedom of movement then?

I agree in some areas we are shit.

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

So if a trading block of 450m (including us at the time) had reached an impasse with a president who would favoured that trading block over a potentially separate UK, and you thought we were going to get another president who favoured that block over the UK were it separate, and we now have another president who favours it, what did and does make you think we are or were likely to get a trade deal or a better trade deal than said trading block?

Well we did get a president that favoured us over the block.

 

But I think we have more chance of having a deal that suits us as a one than as a 28.

Edited 1 January 2021 by Strokes

[StanSP]

7 minutes ago, Claridge said:

You are just second guessing about job losses to fit your narrative. You don’t mention job gains or give a scrap of evidence, but demand it from others. 

Second guessing? Not sure that's true considering there actually have been job losses due to Brexit. As in, companies have literally moved to Europe because its not viable to keep their business in the UK. 

 

Noticed you still can't sell Brexit even though you think its such a good thing. It's not up to me to prove why Brexit is a good thing. I'm not the one that wants it. 

[Facecloth]

Just now, Strokes said:

Well we did get a president that favoured us over the block.

But you said you thought Trump was a joke at the time you voted so as far as you assumed we'd have at least 4 more years of a president that didn't. How long were you prepared to wait for this president after voting brexit?

[Facecloth]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Just because we had a say doesn’t mean I can dislike it.

Its like me saying you can’t dislike brexit because we chose it.

Let’s see them then? I’ve never seen the study that says we have something in our genes that makes us idle.

 

Right, so you agree we can’t plan properly with freedom of movement then?

I agree in some areas we are shit.

I'm just getting clarity as you wasn't clear before and just stating facts. You're free to hate them, but also should understand we had some power, you just chose to vote for meps who didn't do their jobs.

 

I'll find some stats at some point leave that with me.

 

No I'm saying we can't plan regardless of FOM. We can only house as many people as we have houses for, so if we're building them with no previsons for services, FOM or not we are always going to struggle to provide those services.

[Claridge]

I don’t have to sell it as we are out. I can’t see the EU surviving any way. Bankers and big businesses have done well out of the EU, but the amount it spends can’t be maintained for ever. I can’t imagine the poorer countries will be so keen when the money dries up. 

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

But you said you thought Trump was a joke at the time you voted so as far as you assumed we'd have at least 4 more years of a president that didn't. How long were you prepared to wait for this president after voting brexit?

Well I assumed we would leave in 2018-19 and given how long trade talks take we would be into a president that I’d never heard of from either party. So I just dismissed it and decided that the EU would be unlikely to get one that suited 28 nations (now 27) and at worse, with the US we will have the same terms as we do currently.