Getting brexit done!

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I'm just getting clarity as you wasn't clear before and just stating facts. You're free to hate them, but also should understand we had some power, you just chose to vote for meps who didn't do their jobs.

Yeah all of the options weren’t prepared to do their jobs.

Also it’s wasn’t MEPs deciding on which legislation to implement, that would be MPs and no major parties offered an alternative. So if you hated it, the only possible way to vote for it, would be to vote to leave.

 

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

 

I'll find some stats at some point leave that with me.

 

No I'm saying we can't plan regardless of FOM. We can only house as many people as we have houses for, so if we're building them with no previsons for services, FOM or not we are always going to struggle to provide those services.

That may be true, however we have no chance ever with FOM so thankfully we can only throw the blame one way now.

[Salisbury Fox]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

Also a lot of Scots simply want to get away from being in a political union with England whom the rest of the world currently sees as a bit parochial and racist. 

Do other countries really see England as this? Genuinely interested to see some evidence if you have any.

[bovril]

12 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Do other countries really see England as this? Genuinely interested to see some evidence if you have any.

I think the majority of people who take an interest in it believe the UK is putting up barriers to trade because of English nationalism. Admittedly I only have anecdotal evidence for that but it's logical people feel that way when they see a country who has championed free trade and the single market for so long deciding to step away from that because of immigration.

 

I do think that has an impact on Scots' feelings towards the Union, but as the poster above said the stronger and simpler argument is that they want to be able to decide the future of their country. 

Edited 1 January 2021 by bovril

[Dr The Singh]

3 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Do other countries really see England as this? Genuinely interested to see some evidence if you have any.

If I was scottish I would leave, any nation or union that says that Britons overseas have no right to our help.

 

Wtf has this nation become, I'm fooking off to Israel, a proper nation that protects people no matter what.

[Buce]

32 minutes ago, Heathrow fox said:

England and Scotland have got 300 years of union at stake here.Together they controlled a huge empire.Went through the industrial revolution.Stood up against fascism and fought side by side in two world wars.Not to mention we share a relatively small island as one country.We speak the same language.Spend the same currency,watch the same tv and all get to vote for who governs us.Splitting islands in half rarely ends well. 

 

So I don’t think it would be hypocritical of this government or anybody who voted leave,to think that Scotland leaving the Union would be such a good idea.It is so so different to Britain leaving the EU.I also find it strange that a nationalist organisation is being held up as some sort of beacon of light by some sections of the left.

 

Really?

 

 

[Salisbury Fox]

My own view as a remainer is that there is no point bickering over what drove people to vote the way they did or advantages of being in the EU given we are now out.  No one is anymore willing to concede ground and there is no balance from either side. For example of course a trade deal with a bigger bloc will be more attractive, but that doesn’t mean that the US can’t negotiate one with us too, even at the same time. Whilst tailoring any deal to specific sector needs could be quite advantageous rather than having to make concessions because of other countries interests, we will however be starting from a poorer negotiating position given the reduced market share.

[Heathrow fox]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Really?

 

 

Technically?

[bovril]

I find it surprising so much of the debate is about trade and the economy and not the loss of FoM. Do people think things will simply continue as they were for Britons? Somebody mentioned Greeks and Italians above - I reckon FoM is the main reason they'd vote against leaving the EU. 

[FoxesDeb]

32 minutes ago, bovril said:

I find it surprising so much of the debate is about trade and the economy and not the loss of FoM. Do people think things will simply continue as they were for Britons? Somebody mentioned Greeks and Italians above - I reckon FoM is the main reason they'd vote against leaving the EU. 

Having recently moved to Spain it's astonishing how many Brits living here voted to leave, and are now finding themselves with all sorts of problems that they clearly didn't forsee. 

 

I think the general belief was that things would continue as normal for them, unsurprisingly, they aren't. 

 

Many people will possibly have to return to the UK, and plenty more who were wishing to retire here in the future will now find themselves unable to.

 

People with holiday homes here are also realising that they will no longer be able to come out for unlimited periods of time, while this was always the rule it seems it wasn't enforced, but now will be. 

 

Obviously this will apply EU wide, not just here. 

[bovril]

6 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Having recently moved to Spain it's astonishing how many Brits living here voted to leave, and are now finding themselves with all sorts of problems that they clearly didn't forsee. 

 

I think the general belief was that things would continue as normal for them, unsurprisingly, they aren't. 

 

Many people will possibly have to return to the UK, and plenty more who were wishing to retire here in the future will now find themselves unable to.

 

People with holiday homes here are also realising that they will no longer be able to come out for unlimited periods of time, while this was always the rule it seems it wasn't enforced, but now will be. 

 

Obviously this will apply EU wide, not just here. 

What reasons do they give for voting for it and is there some kind of settlement scheme like there is for EU nationals in the UK?

[FoxesDeb]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

What reasons do they give for voting for it and is there some kind of settlement scheme like there is for EU nationals in the UK?

Reasons I have heard have included keeping Britain British, looking after our own, and keeping the foreigners out, all with absolutely no trace of irony. 

 

People that legally resided here before Friday are allowed to stay under the WA, but many seem to be here under the radar so to speak. If they don't own a property that is their main place of residence, or have a legal rental agreement starting before Friday, they will need to return to the UK.

 

Holiday home owners will now have to adhere to the 90 in 180 day rule too, which scuppers many peoples previous way of spending long winters here rather than the UK. 

 

As British people are now 3rd country nationals the requirements for residency are much stricter, mainly financially. The money you need in the bank is quite substantial, if we hadn't got here when we did we probably would have been priced out, even with a decent income. 

[Paninistickers]

12 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Reasons I have heard have included keeping Britain British, looking after our own, and keeping the foreigners out, all with absolutely no trace of irony. 

 

People that legally resided here before Friday are allowed to stay under the WA, but many seem to be here under the radar so to speak. If they don't own a property that is their main place of residence, or have a legal rental agreement starting before Friday, they will need to return to the UK.

 

Holiday home owners will now have to adhere to the 90 in 180 day rule too, which scuppers many peoples previous way of spending long winters here rather than the UK. 

 

As British people are now 3rd country nationals the requirements for residency are much stricter, mainly financially. The money you need in the bank is quite substantial, if we hadn't got here when we did we probably would have been priced out, even with a decent income. 

Good feedback, thanks Deb. Me and a mate have been.mulling over whether to cash in on any potential firesale of.property. Your comments back up that possibility. 

 

There's an awful lot of what I call UK 'drifters' in Spain..as you say, under the radar. And financially seem to.live on the breadline.  

 

I wonder how tough the 90 day thing will be policed? It's  not in Spain's  interest to p1ss off the ex pat community. And, there's plenty of Russians who seem to bum.about at their leisure (tho they have the money I guess)....but i  can imagine a blind eye being turned to long stay uk holidaymakers 

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

I have to say the issues regarding expats in Spain does make me chuckle, though only if they voted for it - a great example of people not fully realizing the consequences.

 

Another minor example of problems I have heard today is that Brits in Spain can no longer stream Sky Go 🤣 to their utter dismay...

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

59 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Good feedback, thanks Deb. Me and a mate have been.mulling over whether to cash in on any potential firesale of.property. Your comments back up that possibility. 

 

There's an awful lot of what I call UK 'drifters' in Spain..as you say, under the radar. And financially seem to.live on the breadline.  

 

I wonder how tough the 90 day thing will be policed? It's  not in Spain's  interest to p1ss off the ex pat community. And, there's plenty of Russians who seem to bum.about at their leisure (tho they have the money I guess)....but i  can imagine a blind eye being turned to long stay uk holidaymakers 

I’m sure many expats in Spain would like visa restrictions not to be policed or enforced. Though of course a vote for Brexit is a vote to strengthen national sovereignty - so they haven’t got a leg to stand on really.

[Claridge]

Thousands of criminals manage to hide away in Spain. Not a chance in hell, they are going to punish Brits with money to spend. Remoaner scare stories again

[adam1]

So pre brexit booze cruisers were limited to 90 litres of wine each.

 

Now its only 18 litres.

 

Motherduckers.

[Paninistickers]

11 minutes ago, Claridge said:

Thousands of criminals manage to hide away in Spain. Not a chance in hell, they are going to punish Brits with money to spend. Remoaner scare stories again

You kind of miss the point. And make my own point at the same time..

 

So, if you have money, you'll  be fine, according to you...hardly very fair to those without wealth. I'm alright jack,  i guess. 

 

Also, relying on the spanish authorities turning a blind eye might be probable and realistic. But ex pats had until yesterday a right to be in Spain. Now they have to depend on incompetence or deliberate ignorance in order to live there after 90 days. And as posts say further up, many of them voted for that. It's hardly 'remoaning' to point out that turkeys have seemingly voted for Christmas and not to raise an eyebrow when pointing it out. 

 

 

 

 

[Claridge]

1 minute ago, Paninistickers said:

You kind of miss the point. And make my own point at the same time..

 

So, if you have money, you'll  be fine, according to you...hardly very fair to those without wealth. I'm alright jack,  i guess. 

 

Also, relying on the spanish authorities turning a blind eye might be probable and realistic. But ex pats had until yesterday a right to be in Spain. Now they have to depend on incompetence or deliberate ignorance in order to live there after 90 days. And as posts say further up, many of them voted for that. It's hardly 'remoaning' to point out that turkeys have seemingly voted for Christmas and not to raise an eyebrow when pointing it out. 

 

 

 

 

Had the same silly scare stories about Gibraltar earlier in the year. It is true to say it’s a bit strange voting for Brexit if you live in a EU country. However drinking in the Red lion, not learning the language and watching British tv whilst living in Spain hardly makes you Spanish anyway. 
 

[leicsmac]

7 hours ago, Strokes said:

Given we have more expats in non EU countries than we do in them, I doubt the disappearance of these small perks will dampen travel enthusiasts spirit much.

That it does it at all is the point, seeing as the necessity of it isn't anywhere close to being proven.

 

Being able to travel more freely is almost always a net positive IMO simply because it gets people to know more about each other, which often leads to greater understanding. I honestly don't see the motivation behind someone wanting to get in the way of that unless maintaining ignorance for whatever reason was the objective.

 

[Dunge]

5 hours ago, Strokes said:

Yeah all of the options weren’t prepared to do their jobs.

Also it’s wasn’t MEPs deciding on which legislation to implement, that would be MPs and no major parties offered an alternative. So if you hated it, the only possible way to vote for it, would be to vote to leave.

 

That may be true, however we have no chance ever with FOM so thankfully we can only throw the blame one way now.

This was (is) one of the major issues of the EU to me. It’s true that MEPs were directly elected, but from what I could see they were little more than glorified notaries. They couldn’t set the agenda or the direction, just argue over some of the details. Voting for an MEP to me became just a vote for either people who would get in the way or people who wouldn’t. At no point was I going to be able to vote for anyone who could promise and deliver “less EU”, only a choice of people who would stand in the way of “more EU”. MEPs are more like the Lords than the Commons. It’s completely the wrong way around but there was no indication of any possible reorganisation.

 

I once had a long conversation with a friend over the Euro, probably around fifteen years ago now and maybe more. I said at the time that I had no intention of leaving the EU, just didn’t want the Euro. It was only after that and seeing more about the European Parliament that I became further disillusioned. Essentially, I didn’t feel there was any chance of achieving the change that even many remainers recommended. Just an ever-moving crawl toward a United States of Europe under some sort of name, and never sorting out the system for direct democracy either.

 

I did feel sad on the day the result was announced, despite voting leave. A lot of people I knew voted remain, so I knew there would be unhappiness and anger out there. It also meant that the “best case” of common market with no, or at least minimum, political union was a dream meeting its official end. In reality though, I couldn’t and still can’t see that coming true anymore - Too many vested interests and self-confidence in the existing system. Plus what I’ve come to realise since - that the EU gives mainland Europe a sense of security that it didn’t have before. (Which I think is a mistruth but still emotionally pertinent.)

 

Sometimes I see on here and elsewhere a demand from people to name the thing leavers are looking forward to having that they didn’t before. It’s always been something of a null question to me because I was always voting for a system and for foundations to build upon long into the future, and I didn’t see the foundations needed in the EU. There can be talk of varying advantages or disadvantages of being in or out, such as flexibility compared to collaboration, but to me it always boiled down to the system. It’s true that I have identity disagreements when it comes to Europe, but I could have lived with those if I had faith in the system.

 

I don’t quite know where I’m going with this; just off on a ramble I suppose. But I figured I’d throw out my perspective given the number of people in this thread and beyond who see it differently and can’t imagine why anyone would vote leave who doesn’t just want all the brown people kicked out. (Which, for the record, I don’t.)

[FoxesDeb]

8 hours ago, Claridge said:

Thousands of criminals manage to hide away in Spain. Not a chance in hell, they are going to punish Brits with money to spend. Remoaner scare stories again

I don't imagine midnight raids on the likes of Bob and Hilda living on a park home in Benidorn, no, but when people have overstayed here, returned for a visit to the UK and try to come back again you think border control will turn a blind eye? I can't see it myself. 

 

I think people who stay here will possibly be ok if they have a network of 'legal' people prepared to help them, but the authorities here do seem to keep track of people more than in the UK. 

 

The police have also already started cracking down on people driving GB plated cars, something which they did previously seem to turn a blind eye to. The law is you can only keep your British car for 6 months, so anyone trying to do this for longer will potentially get caught. You can't buy a Spanish car unless you're here legally as far as I can tell. 

 

The Spanish police, or at least the Guardia Civil, didn't like us much before Brexit, so I doubt they think very highly of us at all now. 

[Strokes]

8 hours ago, leicsmac said:

That it does it at all is the point, seeing as the necessity of it isn't anywhere close to being proven.

 

Being able to travel more freely is almost always a net positive IMO simply because it gets people to know more about each other, which often leads to greater understanding. I honestly don't see the motivation behind someone wanting to get in the way of that unless maintaining ignorance for whatever reason was the objective.

 

Again though, there is no evidence that these perks lead to more people travelling or enjoying, else their would be more in EU countries than Australia for example.

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Again though, there is no evidence that these perks lead to more people travelling or enjoying, else their would be more in EU countries than Australia for example.

I'd think that losing these perks leading to people finding it more difficult or being less inclined to travel is reasonably self evident because having them there made it easier - the amount of people actually using them comparative to travelers to other places, so long as it is above zero and turns out to be less once they are removed than when they were there, is not relevant.

 

Res ipsa loquitur - "the thing speaks for itself".

[Strokes]

7 hours ago, Dunge said:

This was (is) one of the major issues of the EU to me. It’s true that MEPs were directly elected, but from what I could see they were little more than glorified notaries. They couldn’t set the agenda or the direction, just argue over some of the details. Voting for an MEP to me became just a vote for either people who would get in the way or people who wouldn’t. At no point was I going to be able to vote for anyone who could promise and deliver “less EU”, only a choice of people who would stand in the way of “more EU”. MEPs are more like the Lords than the Commons. It’s completely the wrong way around but there was no indication of any possible reorganisation.

 

I once had a long conversation with a friend over the Euro, probably around fifteen years ago now and maybe more. I said at the time that I had no intention of leaving the EU, just didn’t want the Euro. It was only after that and seeing more about the European Parliament that I became further disillusioned. Essentially, I didn’t feel there was any chance of achieving the change that even many remainers recommended. Just an ever-moving crawl toward a United States of Europe under some sort of name, and never sorting out the system for direct democracy either.

 

I did feel sad on the day the result was announced, despite voting leave. A lot of people I knew voted remain, so I knew there would be unhappiness and anger out there. It also meant that the “best case” of common market with no, or at least minimum, political union was a dream meeting its official end. In reality though, I couldn’t and still can’t see that coming true anymore - Too many vested interests and self-confidence in the existing system. Plus what I’ve come to realise since - that the EU gives mainland Europe a sense of security that it didn’t have before. (Which I think is a mistruth but still emotionally pertinent.)

 

Sometimes I see on here and elsewhere a demand from people to name the thing leavers are looking forward to having that they didn’t before. It’s always been something of a null question to me because I was always voting for a system and for foundations to build upon long into the future, and I didn’t see the foundations needed in the EU. There can be talk of varying advantages or disadvantages of being in or out, such as flexibility compared to collaboration, but to me it always boiled down to the system. It’s true that I have identity disagreements when it comes to Europe, but I could have lived with those if I had faith in the system.

 

I don’t quite know where I’m going with this; just off on a ramble I suppose. But I figured I’d throw out my perspective given the number of people in this thread and beyond who see it differently and can’t imagine why anyone would vote leave who doesn’t just want all the brown people kicked out. (Which, for the record, I don’t.)

I totally agree,

I don’t think it was ever one single reason why people voted to leave or certainly wasn’t for me, but one of the big ones that rarely gets talked about, is the disconnection. Even many of the now EU fanatics, we’re not particularly connected pre 2016, they’ve just made it their business too since.

The way in which the EU’s balance of power works makes it very difficult to connect with. Taking aside that eu parliament weakest chamber of power, the MEPs are allowed to form alliances/allegiances/voting blocks that can hold the balance of power in parliament. We don’t vote for these blocks, we may not be able too as they may not be represented on our shores. The parties we do vote for can swap and change and it’s not the easiest thing to follow.

 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

I'd think that losing these perks leading to people finding it more difficult or being less inclined to travel is reasonably self evident because having them there made it easier - the amount of people actually using them comparative to travelers to other places, so long as it is above zero and turns out to be less once they are removed than when they were there, is not relevant.

 

Res ipsa loquitur - "the thing speaks for itself".

I’m not sure I can agree, if not having the perks were a barrier, the numbers for elsewhere would less.