Getting Brexit undone

[Rap0sa]

Perhaps a real trade specialist should have been dispatched to Brussels. The EU has 1500 such specialists, who have made trade deals for the EU with the world for 40 years. The UK people were bloody newbies, because the EU did all their trade deals for 47 years, there's nobody left in UK who knows how it is done.

Small wonder it's such a frackup.

[Strokes]

13 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

But it does have to do with the issue of modern day racism in general, which is still evidently problematic in the present day in the UK (if the abuse certain footballers have been copping is anything to go by) as well as the US (though obviously not to the same degree).

 

There is no equivalence between the BLM movement and those who use WWII as an excuse to dislike Europe and its institutions, because the former has no basis in current events and the latter does, despite the use of some of the people involved going on about the slave trade as a convenient strawman.

I completely disagree, I think even if you were not alive for WW2 chances are you know or knew someone seriously affected by it.

Racism in this country is usually just name calling these day, but 30+ years ago it was much worse and 60+ even worse than that. So in my opinion it’s hypocritical to think one form of resentment is ok but another is not.

[bovril]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I completely disagree, I think even if you were not alive for WW2 chances are you know or knew someone seriously affected by it.

Racism in this country is usually just name calling these day, but 30+ years ago it was much worse and 60+ even worse than that. So in my opinion it’s hypocritical to think one form of resentment is ok but another is not.

None of that really explains why we decided to put up trade barriers to our next door neighbours and ruin countless small businesses. 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

None of that really explains why we decided to put up trade barriers to our next door neighbours and ruin countless small businesses. 

It wasn’t meant too.....

[bovril]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It wasn’t meant too.....

You're explaining why there's resentment towards European nations. I'm trying to understand why that resentment is some kind of reason for damaging business and trade in your own country. 

[bovril]

One interesting quirk of Brexit seems to be that many of those who are most unimpressed with American cultural imperialism also decided to leave a union based on promoting European interests over those of the US. 

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, bovril said:

You're explaining why there's resentment towards European nations. I'm trying to understand why that resentment is some kind of reason for damaging business and trade in your own country. 

We’ve been over this time and time again I’ve no desire to get into it.
I wasn’t explaining why there is resentment that doesn’t need explaining.

I was trying to say it’s understandable resentment and likened it to something vaguely similar.

[bovril]

Just now, Strokes said:

We’ve been over this time and time again I’ve no desire to get into it.
I wasn’t explaining why there is resentment that doesn’t need explaining.

I was trying to say it’s understandable resentment and likened it to something vaguely similar.

Fair enough. 

[Heathrow fox]

9 hours ago, danny. said:

How old are you? I’m under 40 and have German and French friends and really no one cares about events from 80 years ago anymore. It’s the older generation clutching on to these events from another century that stops any progress. I wish you’d just let it go, the current generations have. 

I think you’ve totally misread GGs post.As for moving on,that was well under way within one generation.A remarkable achievement all things considered.

[dsr-burnley]

2 hours ago, bovril said:

One interesting quirk of Brexit seems to be that many of those who are most unimpressed with American cultural imperialism also decided to leave a union based on promoting European interests over those of the US. 

I think you misheard - it was "based on promoting European interests over those of us".  

[Rap0sa]

[Kopfkino]

4 hours ago, Strokes said:

We’ve been over this time and time again I’ve no desire to get into it.
I wasn’t explaining why there is resentment that doesn’t need explaining.

I was trying to say it’s understandable resentment and likened it to something vaguely similar.

Yeah idk about resentment but it doesn’t seem particularly disingenuous to suggest historical factors have been at play. Gordon’s point seemed a bit strange, admittedly, but the caricature position about being obsessed with the war or some drivel about empire exists only to overcome expending energy on thinking about how historical factors, geography past philosophical divergence and cultural development shapes a national psyche and its evolution such that the UK might not quite fit in. It’ often lazily referred to as British exceptionalism, an ironic phrase given that it implies the British are exceptional in their belief in their own exceptionalism and also amusing because it often comes from people that revel in British declinism, a position equally as nauseating as genuine British exceptionalism.

 

A different foundational experience inevitably frames the whole thing from start to finish differently. De Gaulle recognised it when he kept saying ‘non’ to our membership because the Uk was not like the original 6 because it’s driven by its commercial activities, albeit with a focus on agriculture. Maybe these days you might argue the Germans also have a hyper-focus on ‘commercial activities’ but I think the fact the UK debate always comes back to trade and the economics and that ‘more Europe’ is still met with unease by all but genuine federalists and the new wave of rabid Europhiles, suggests that could still be the case.

 

Maybe the way people often phrase it lends itself to strawmans and caricatures but there’s merit to the ‘historical’ aspect if you’re interested in actually exploring what such positions are getting at rather than signalling your high status because you’re immune from that outlook.

I’ve heard some scholars that are particularly fond of using history as an explainer even going back as far as Agincourt, but that maybe a bit excessive

 

[Heathrow fox]

12 hours ago, SemperEadem said:

Weird fetish in this country about the war.

Yes being the only country left in Europe for a year with a dog in the fight against fascism,and occasionally mentioning it is a bit weird.I find it quite strange that it tends to be left leaning people under a certain age who lose their shit over facist Farage and facist Trump can’t get their heads around the fact that Britain played a major role in defeating facist Germany.

[Strokes]

17 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Yeah idk about resentment but it doesn’t seem particularly disingenuous to suggest historical factors have been at play. Gordon’s point seemed a bit strange, admittedly, but the caricature position about being obsessed with the war or some drivel about empire exists only to overcome expending energy on thinking about how historical factors, geography past philosophical divergence and cultural development shapes a national psyche and its evolution such that the UK might not quite fit in. It’ often lazily referred to as British exceptionalism, an ironic phrase given that it implies the British are exceptional in their belief in their own exceptionalism and also amusing because it often comes from people that revel in British declinism, a position equally as nauseating as genuine British exceptionalism.

 

A different foundational experience inevitably frames the whole thing from start to finish differently. De Gaulle recognised it when he kept saying ‘non’ to our membership because the Uk was not like the original 6 because it’s driven by its commercial activities, albeit with a focus on agriculture. Maybe these days you might argue the Germans also have a hyper-focus on ‘commercial activities’ but I think the fact the UK debate always comes back to trade and the economics and that ‘more Europe’ is still met with unease by all but genuine federalists and the new wave of rabid Europhiles, suggests that could still be the case.

 

Maybe the way people often phrase it lends itself to strawmans and caricatures but there’s merit to the ‘historical’ aspect if you’re interested in actually exploring what such positions are getting at rather than signalling your high status because you’re immune from that outlook.

I’ve heard some scholars that are particularly fond of using history as an explainer even going back as far as Agincourt, but that maybe a bit excessive

 

I think Gordon’s French comment was based around the French having a bit of inferiority complex that stems from WW2 and to point I do agree. 
Having worked in France and most Europe in my early twenties, I definitely felt less welcome in France than anywhere else I’ve ever stayed for a long period.

I think you’re right in that often the way things are phrased can distort the way things are received.

I’m definitely keen to hear any theories you have on the historical aspects, anything to divert from the tireless back and fourth going over old ground 

[leicsmac]

8 hours ago, Strokes said:

I completely disagree, I think even if you were not alive for WW2 chances are you know or knew someone seriously affected by it.

Racism in this country is usually just name calling these day, but 30+ years ago it was much worse and 60+ even worse than that. So in my opinion it’s hypocritical to think one form of resentment is ok but another is not.

I think I see where you're coming from here, but sorry, I just don't get people who, in the form of still fighting it today, idealise an event that killed millions of people as something grand and something to be proud of rather than a dreadful necessity that should never, ever be repeated.

 

4 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

I think you’ve totally misread GGs post.As for moving on,that was well under way within one generation.A remarkable achievement all things considered.

I'm curious to know what would be a more....charitable reading of it would be, then.

 

1 hour ago, Heathrow fox said:

Yes being the only country left in Europe for a year with a dog in the fight against fascism,and occasionally mentioning it is a bit weird.I find it quite strange that it tends to be left leaning people under a certain age who lose their shit over facist Farage and facist Trump can’t get their heads around the fact that Britain played a major role in defeating facist Germany.

See above. Defeating Nazism was necessary (though don't let it be forgotten that Hitler didn't want to fight the British Empire at all because he saw it as an equal), idealising the act given the cost in lives just seems a bit...icky.

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

Yeah idk about resentment but it doesn’t seem particularly disingenuous to suggest historical factors have been at play. Gordon’s point seemed a bit strange, admittedly, but the caricature position about being obsessed with the war or some drivel about empire exists only to overcome expending energy on thinking about how historical factors, geography past philosophical divergence and cultural development shapes a national psyche and its evolution such that the UK might not quite fit in. It’ often lazily referred to as British exceptionalism, an ironic phrase given that it implies the British are exceptional in their belief in their own exceptionalism and also amusing because it often comes from people that revel in British declinism, a position equally as nauseating as genuine British exceptionalism.

 

Just because it is lazy doesn't mean that in some situations it isn't accurate, as indeed you mention.

 

5 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

 

 

A different foundational experience inevitably frames the whole thing from start to finish differently. De Gaulle recognised it when he kept saying ‘non’ to our membership because the Uk was not like the original 6 because it’s driven by its commercial activities, albeit with a focus on agriculture. Maybe these days you might argue the Germans also have a hyper-focus on ‘commercial activities’ but I think the fact the UK debate always comes back to trade and the economics and that ‘more Europe’ is still met with unease by all but genuine federalists and the new wave of rabid Europhiles, suggests that could still be the case.

 

 

Further to the above, isn't this an argument framed from the idea that the UK is exceptional at something (in this case, commercial activities)?
 

5 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

Maybe the way people often phrase it lends itself to strawmans and caricatures but there’s merit to the ‘historical’ aspect if you’re interested in actually exploring what such positions are getting at rather than signalling your high status because you’re immune from that outlook.

I’ve heard some scholars that are particularly fond of using history as an explainer even going back as far as Agincourt, but that maybe a bit excessive

 

Pretty sure that inferring that anyone here has said the historical aspect should not be focused on at all is itself a strawman.

 

Of course there's merit to it, but at the same time letting the distant past guide the future isn't always a good thing.

 

Pardon the brevity of the response.

Edited 17 February 2021 by leicsmac

[danny.]

9 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

Yes being the only country left in Europe for a year with a dog in the fight against fascism,and occasionally mentioning it is a bit weird.I find it quite strange that it tends to be left leaning people under a certain age who lose their shit over facist Farage and facist Trump can’t get their heads around the fact that Britain played a major role in defeating facist Germany.

This is exactly my point. No one is “losing their shit” we just don’t care any more than we care about Agincourt or Hastings. Germany isn’t facist, ironically the U.K. is going that way with this current government (“going”, before I’m accused of hyperbole) 

[Jon the Hat]

32 minutes ago, danny. said:

This is exactly my point. No one is “losing their shit” we just don’t care any more than we care about Agincourt or Hastings. Germany isn’t facist, ironically the U.K. is going that way with this current government (“going”, before I’m accused of hyperbole) 

It really isn't.  Hyperbole indeed.

[danny.]

5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

It really isn't.  Hyperbole indeed.

Well I’m not surprised you disagree 😅 many centrists feel it is, though. That’s another topic though 

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, danny. said:

Well I’m not surprised you disagree 😅 many centrists feel it is, though. That’s another topic though 

There is almost certainly some lining of pockets going on, at the very least prepping the ground for some lucrative post politics careers, but I have seen little to suggest anything resembling fascism is going on.  You have some evidence to show there is?

[danny.]

5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

There is almost certainly some lining of pockets going on, at the very least prepping the ground for some lucrative post politics careers, but I have seen little to suggest anything resembling fascism is going on.  You have some evidence to show there is?

I think that repeatedly breaking electoral law, flat out lies and propaganda and repeated content of contempt of parliament with no consequences isn’t a good direction. Also having one of the least trusted media in the world which is owned by a handful of people, the same people who also donate and associate with the same people in power lining their pockets is also a very poor direction. Having seen the growing xenophobia and racism post referendum and how the press have played on that it’s not hard to see some comparisons to the beginnings of historical facist societies. 

[CosbehFox]

On 14/02/2021 at 18:32, bovril said:

Just out of interest why do you think this feeling exists much more in England than other nations? I accept that Euroscepticism is quite strong in some other places but why is it only here that a political party committed to putting up barriers to the rest of the EU wins elections? What is it that we know that other countries don't, or is it fear that's keeping other countries in their place? 

We are an Island ain’t we ? The mentality is in the psyche. Our version of immigration is far more vivid. Land borders still have a natural circulation for society. 
 

I find interesting that Italy probably the next most Eurospectic country is ‘young’ and others such as Hungary have a history of imperial power. 
 

 

10 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

Yes being the only country left in Europe for a year with a dog in the fight against fascism,and occasionally mentioning it is a bit weird.I find it quite strange that it tends to be left leaning people under a certain age who lose their shit over facist Farage and facist Trump can’t get their heads around the fact that Britain played a major role in defeating facist Germany.

Depends if you view Russia as European or not. Also depends if you view Britain as fighting when in reality we were defending. Without rolling too much off topic, upsets my others half family with VE Day when a lot of Brits were in a horrific situation in South-East Asia. No victors in war 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

We are an Island ain’t we ? The mentality is in the psyche. Our version of immigration is far more vivid. Land borders still have a natural circulation for society. 
 

I find interesting that Italy probably the next most Eurospectic country is ‘young’ and others such as Hungary have a history of imperial power. 
 

 

Depends if you view Russia as European or not. Also depends if you view Britain as fighting when in reality we were defending. Without rolling too much off topic, upsets my others half family with VE Day when a lot of Brits were in a horrific situation in South-East Asia. No victors in war 

Not always the case, but broadly speaking, yeah.

 

That's why I can't really get my head around folks who reference it so much with respect to the present/peacetime events. Having thought about it, it's not the jingoism itself that is really the issue. It's the idea that anyone who references warfare heavily with respect to and uses it as a barometer for international relations today does so because they believe warfare is actually a good thing and at the very least they wouldn't mind it happening again.

 

And enough people believing that in a democracy where decisions to go to war come down to elected officials is...a bit scary IMO.

[Voll Blau]

12 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

Yes being the only country left in Europe for a year with a dog in the fight against fascism,and occasionally mentioning it is a bit weird.I find it quite strange that it tends to be left leaning people under a certain age who lose their shit over facist Farage and facist Trump can’t get their heads around the fact that Britain played a major role in defeating facist Germany.

 

Eh? Pretty sure everyone in this country knows about our role in the Second World War. The weird aspect of it comes from the fact people *still* use it as a marker for almost any situation this country faces - eight decades later. Whether it's Brexit or Covid the stock response is "Well we got through the war, didn't we?" like they're somehow comparable situations.

 

And - newsflash - the people of continental Europe don't still owe us after all that for our part in the defeat of Hitler. They've rightly moved on, so should we.

 

It's like England fans who wrongly reckon they're upsetting the Germans by doing 'Ten German Bombers'. The lads I know over there just think it's funny that we're still obsessed with that period in history to the extent where we still sing football songs about it.

Edited 17 February 2021 by Voll Blau

[BKLFox]

You only need look at the results of the European Song Contest too know they all hate the UK