Electric cars

[peach0000]

Are there any new electric cars coming on to the market in the coming years that are worth keeping an eye out for? I really like the look of the Alfa Tonale but unfortunately that's just a plug in hybrid. If it was full electric with a decent range that could persuade me.

[PAULCFC]

From one of the other forums i look at!

As you've probably seen in the news the government has recently had to abandon its pledge to ban all gas boilers in new build homes by 2023.... another well meant date but completely unachievable

And so is the 2030 date... the reality is there are well over 40 million vehicles on the UK roads... so they would need at least 40 million charging points....

If you do the maths it works out they need to install 10,950+ charging points every day of the week for the next 10 years... to get the infrastructure in place...

So lets be generous and double the length of time to 2040... then its only 5,500 charging points to install everyday for the next 20 years.... get the picture....?

That's not without the issue of how people can charge there cars that live in blocks of flats or little terraced streets where its every man for himself to get a parking space... or the wagons pulling 40 tonnes for hundreds of miles.... then you have all the oil companies that are going to lose millions if not billions of pounds in money because no one wants there oil...? Can't see that happening without a fight....

We will eventually go carbon free... one day... but i don't see it happening in our lifetime... So I wouldn't worry about plummeting van prices for a while yet.. 

 

2019 - 199 DSG T32 4Motion

ms i look at!

Edited 21 February 2021 by PAULCFC

[ozleicester]

On 19/02/2021 at 22:39, Free Falling Foxes said:

Walked around the back of a car the other day and then it started reversing. I banged on the back to let him know I was there.

He hadn't looked and I didnt hear it.

 

I seem to recall reading somewhere that safety campaigners have concerns because of their relative silence.

 

 

[WigstonWanderer]

 

6 hours ago, Ian Nacho said:

I’m by no means an expert but if I was going to get an electric car at this moment in time I’d just get a decent lease deal. In my mind I’m just not convinced on the whole money saving argument. The battery isn’t going to last forever and I’m imagining a new battery won’t be cheap. I’m also skeptical of the whole green argument too because what happens to those batteries once they’re finished with?

 

 

Something I’ve always wondered about but haven’t researched. I’d like to be assured that the battery contents are recycled, and that the overall effect of the electric car over the lifespan of both batteries and car, including mining of the lithium, etc, does actually reduce emissions, assuming of course that the electricity they actually use is itself green (if not now then eventually). If not, other options will be needed such as hydrogen perhaps.

[Ian Nacho]

2 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

 

Something I’ve always wondered about but haven’t researched. I’d like to be assured that the battery contents are recycled, and that the overall effect of the electric car over the lifespan of both batteries and car, including mining of the lithium, etc, does actually reduce emissions, assuming of course that the electricity they actually use is itself green (if not now then eventually). If not, other options will be needed such as hydrogen perhaps.

Hydrogen is the way forward in my opinion. No charge time needed. Only issue is that there is pretty much zero infrastructure for it. 

[hejammy]

8 hours ago, PAULCFC said:

From one of the other forums i look at!

As you've probably seen in the news the government has recently had to abandon its pledge to ban all gas boilers in new build homes by 2023.... another well meant date but completely unachievable

And so is the 2030 date... the reality is there are well over 40 million vehicles on the UK roads... so they would need at least 40 million charging points....

If you do the maths it works out they need to install 10,950+ charging points every day of the week for the next 10 years... to get the infrastructure in place...

So lets be generous and double the length of time to 2040... then its only 5,500 charging points to install everyday for the next 20 years.... get the picture....?

That's not without the issue of how people can charge there cars that live in blocks of flats or little terraced streets where its every man for himself to get a parking space... or the wagons pulling 40 tonnes for hundreds of miles.... then you have all the oil companies that are going to lose millions if not billions of pounds in money because no one wants there oil...? Can't see that happening without a fight....

We will eventually go carbon free... one day... but i don't see it happening in our lifetime... So I wouldn't worry about plummeting van prices for a while yet.. 

 

2019 - 199 DSG T32 4Motion

ms i look at!

This isn't quite accurate in my opinion. Why would we need at least 1 charging point per car? We don't have 1 petrol pump per car? Besides each house would have a charging point in their house if they had an electric car? There's only around 8,000 petrol stations in UK let's say they had an average of 12 pumps each then that's still under 100,000 pumps in the whole of the UK. No way we need 40m charging stations (outside of homes)

 

 

[WigstonWanderer]

27 minutes ago, Ian Nacho said:

Hydrogen is the way forward in my opinion. No charge time needed. Only issue is that there is pretty much zero infrastructure for it. 

Actually using compressed hydrogen directly seems a bit fraught to me, but I understand it can be used in the form of ammonia. Not sure how. Again, too lazy to research.

[Bellend Sebastian]

26 minutes ago, hejammy said:

This isn't quite accurate in my opinion. Why would we need at least 1 charging point per car? We don't have 1 petrol pump per car? Besides each house would have a charging point in their house if they had an electric car? There's only around 8,000 petrol stations in UK let's say they had an average of 12 pumps each then that's still under 100,000 pumps in the whole of the UK. No way we need 40m charging stations (outside of homes)

 

 

It's just made up numbers intended to make people think they're being shat on.

 

The technology is improving all the time. Look at this:

 

https://www.whatcar.com/news/new-super-fast-electric-car-batteries-will-charge-up-in-five-minutes/n22584

 

If this comes online any time soon, you don't have to worry about whether you can charge your car at home or whatever

[Robo61]

8 hours ago, PAULCFC said:

From one of the other forums i look at!

As you've probably seen in the news the government has recently had to abandon its pledge to ban all gas boilers in new build homes by 2023.... another well meant date but completely unachievable

And so is the 2030 date... the reality is there are well over 40 million vehicles on the UK roads... so they would need at least 40 million charging points....

If you do the maths it works out they need to install 10,950+ charging points every day of the week for the next 10 years... to get the infrastructure in place...

So lets be generous and double the length of time to 2040... then its only 5,500 charging points to install everyday for the next 20 years.... get the picture....?

That's not without the issue of how people can charge there cars that live in blocks of flats or little terraced streets where its every man for himself to get a parking space... or the wagons pulling 40 tonnes for hundreds of miles.... then you have all the oil companies that are going to lose millions if not billions of pounds in money because no one wants there oil...? Can't see that happening without a fight....

We will eventually go carbon free... one day... but i don't see it happening in our lifetime... So I wouldn't worry about plummeting van prices for a while yet.. 

 

2019 - 199 DSG T32 4Motion

ms i look at!

Feel you need to do just a little of proper research.  The Government is proposing that all new cards sold by 2030 must include electric power(hybrid and full electric).  Annual car sales are circa 3 million,  so it will take around 5 years before the majority of vehicles are electric,  at least another 5 before 90%.  Each vehicle will not need a charging point,  indeed by 2030,  researchers believe that electric cars will not need charging any more often that current ICE vehicles and that charging times will be similar to refuelling.  That's not to say that their isn't alot to do and many challenges but Norway have already reached the point where the majority of new car sales are electric so it is certainly achievable.

[SpacedX]

2 hours ago, Ian Nacho said:

Hydrogen is the way forward in my opinion. No charge time needed. Only issue is that there is pretty much zero infrastructure for it. 

Hydrogen could definitely play a role in phasing out fossil fuels, as it produces no CO2 when it is burned. Saying that, it's more prone to leakage because the molecules are smaller, and it produces air pollution in the form of nitrous oxides when burned.

 

As you say, the main problem lies with infrastructure, but linked to this, producing it on the scale required. Hydrogen is not a readily accessible energy source like coal or wind. It is bound up tightly in molecules such as water and natural gas, so it is expensive and energy-intensive to extract and purify. Electrolysis is one possibility, but it is both expensive and inefficient. Another issue is capacity. At room temperature and pressure, hydrogen takes up some 3,000 times more space than gasoline containing an equivalent amount of energy. Liquid hydrogen fuel however has many benefits, including its low molecular weight and high energy output when burned - which is why it is employed as a rocket fuel. For both storage and fueling, liquids benefit from considerable advantages over gases having high energy density, being easier to transport, and typically, easier to handle. Hydrogen, however, is not typical. It becomes a liquid only at ­423 degrees Fahrenheit, just a few degrees above absolute zero therefore, it can only be stored in superinsulated cryogenic tanks. Liquefaction is also expensive and inefficient. Liquefying one kilogram (kg) of hydrogen using electricity from the national grid would by itself release some 18 to 21 pounds of CO2 into the atmosphere, roughly equal to the CO2 emitted by burning one gallon of gasoline. Furthermore, hydrogen can cause many metals, including the carbon steel widely used in gas pipelines, to become brittle.

 

Virtually all road going engines using hydrogen as a fuel source utilise compression but such high pressures creates system complexity and requires materials and components that are sophisticated and costly. In addition to this, there is the safety issue. In the event of leakage, hydrogen will rapidly escape as a diffuse gas into the atmosphere. It is also non-toxic. In spite of this, it is nonetheless highly flammable with an ignition energy that is 20 times smaller than that of natural gas or gasoline. That means, scarily, that it can be ignited by your mobile or even by lightening located miles away or static. Because it is odourless, any potentially dangerous leakage is difficult to detect. Also, hydrogen burns virtually invisibly, and people have unwittingly walked into hydrogen flames.

 

Practical hydrogen storage requires a major technology breakthrough, most likely in solid-state hydrogen storage - and that is many years away. In the meantime, who will spend the hundreds of billions of dollars on a wholly new nationwide infrastructure that you referred to in order to provide ready access to hydrogen for consumers with fuel cell vehicles until millions of hydrogen vehicles are on the road? And who will then manufacture and market such vehicles until the infrastructure is in place to fuel those vehicles? Will car companies and fuel providers be willing to take this chance before knowing whether the public will embrace these cars? A lay public already wary following the u-turn over diesel engines. 

Edited 21 February 2021 by Line-X

[Nalis]

2 hours ago, hejammy said:

This isn't quite accurate in my opinion. Why would we need at least 1 charging point per car? We don't have 1 petrol pump per car? Besides each house would have a charging point in their house if they had an electric car? There's only around 8,000 petrol stations in UK let's say they had an average of 12 pumps each then that's still under 100,000 pumps in the whole of the UK. No way we need 40m charging stations (outside of homes)

 

 

Yeah I dont get this chat about needing access to electric charging ports outside your house either.

 

Surely as you say, its a matter of replacing petrol stations to part petrol stations / part charging station to eventually a 'charging station' with multiple ports similar to a current petrol station but without pumps.

 

If someone wants to explain why we NEED a charging port per car then I'm all ears.

[tom27111]

31 minutes ago, Nalis said:

Yeah I dont get this chat about needing access to electric charging ports outside your house either.

 

Surely as you say, its a matter of replacing petrol stations to part petrol stations / part charging station to eventually a 'charging station' with multiple ports similar to a current petrol station but without pumps.

 

If someone wants to explain why we NEED a charging port per car then I'm all ears.

 

Because if you plug a Tesla in to the mains, as opposed to a specialised charging point, it takes around 28 hours.

[tom27111]

2 hours ago, Robo61 said:

Feel you need to do just a little of proper research.  The Government is proposing that all new cards sold by 2030 must include electric power(hybrid and full electric).  Annual car sales are circa 3 million,  so it will take around 5 years before the majority of vehicles are electric,  at least another 5 before 90%.  Each vehicle will not need a charging point,  indeed by 2030,  researchers believe that electric cars will not need charging any more often that current ICE vehicles and that charging times will be similar to refuelling.  That's not to say that their isn't alot to do and many challenges but Norway have already reached the point where the majority of new car sales are electric so it is certainly achievable.

That's interesting. 

 

The original target definitely outlawed hybrid vehicles and said fully electric only.

 

So they've backtracked already?

[Nalis]

3 minutes ago, tom27111 said:

 

Because if you plug a Tesla in to the mains, as opposed to a specialised charging point, it takes around 28 hours.

Ah didnt realise it look that long! Though would it be feasible to have specialised charging ports at what are now petrol station? 

 

Thanks for the explanation.

Edited 21 February 2021 by Nalis

[tom27111]

Just now, Nalis said:

Ah didnt realise it look that long! Though would it be feasible to have specialised charging ports at what are now petrol station? 

 

We had a Tesla in the showroom and we were told a driver was on his way up to collect it to take it back to Southampton as one of the directors fancied it as a company car.

 

Someone had the idea that we should check the battery. It was low. 

 

We plugged it in and it told us 28 hours until charged.

 

When the driver arrived, the range was about 80 miles, I think. He said it would be fine.

 

He broke down on the M1 before he got to Luton. From Northampton 

 

It took him over 24 hours to do a 2 hour journey.

[peach0000]

Tesla are already claiming that their superchargers will charge their cars up in 15 minutes soon. The technology is improving all the time and it will very soon get to the stage where the times are short enough that we could see electric charging at a place that resembles a petrol station. 

 

If I went to a petrol station and filled up and was told if I wait 15 minutes I could have the fuel at a quarter of the price, I am waiting every time. That for me is the advantage of electric.

[Robo61]

2 hours ago, tom27111 said:

That's interesting. 

 

The original target definitely outlawed hybrid vehicles and said fully electric only.

 

So they've backtracked already?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54981425

 

This is the BBC article from.the day the PM announced the policy.  On this rare occasion the Government have not yet backtracked.

[tom27111]

Just now, Robo61 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54981425

 

This is the BBC article from.the day the PM announced the policy.  On this rare occasion the Government have not yet backtracked.

They had definitely set out a date where all new vehicles had to be fully electric and hybrids were not permitted. 

 

I'll have a look later and see if I can find something about it 

[Robo61]

4 minutes ago, tom27111 said:

They had definitely set out a date where all new vehicles had to be fully electric and hybrids were not permitted. 

 

I'll have a look later and see if I can find something about it 

That was when the date was 2035 I believe.  Though not sure it's worth getting hung up about,  either way 2030 is doable if Government have the commitment,  as Norway is proving.

Edited 21 February 2021 by Robo61

[WigstonWanderer]

If the average power output of a car engine is about 50kw when travelling at 100 km/hr (someone correct me if I’m wrong), and you want a range of 100 km, you’ll need over 50 kw hr of energy put into the batteries (won’t be 100% efficient). To do this in 15 mins requires a 200kw power source! Wow! Typical household peak requirement is probably about 8kw.

 

Have I got something wrong here? Perhaps the assumed average power requirement for an electric car engine is wrong.

Edited 21 February 2021 by WigstonWanderer

[dsr-burnley]

1 hour ago, WigstonWanderer said:

If the average power output of a car engine is about 50kw when travelling at 100 km/hr (someone correct me if I’m wrong), and you want a range of 100 km, you’ll need over 50 kw hr of energy put into the batteries (won’t be 100% efficient). To do this in 15 mins requires a 200kw power source! Wow! Typical household peak requirement is probably about 8kw.

 

Have I got something wrong here? Perhaps the assumed average power requirement for an electric car engine is wrong.

Sounds to me like the superchargers mentioned above are the way forward for people who can't put power points in at home.  This electric car policy will work, but not until you can recharge an electric car as easily, or near enough, as a petrol car.  They will have to put something in place for people that can't charge up at home.

[peach0000]

1 hour ago, WigstonWanderer said:

If the average power output of a car engine is about 50kw when travelling at 100 km/hr (someone correct me if I’m wrong), and you want a range of 100 km, you’ll need over 50 kw hr of energy put into the batteries (won’t be 100% efficient). To do this in 15 mins requires a 200kw power source! Wow! Typical household peak requirement is probably about 8kw.

 

Have I got something wrong here? Perhaps the assumed average power requirement for an electric car engine is wrong.

Well Tesla has a network of 150 and 250kw chargers so it may not be wrong. That's why a Tesla can get 80% charge in less than half an hour on a supercharger but it takes 20 odd hours on a normal three pin socket.

[Strokes]

8 hours ago, Line-X said:

Hydrogen could definitely play a role in phasing out fossil fuels, as it produces no CO2 when it is burned. Saying that, it's more prone to leakage because the molecules are smaller, and it produces air pollution in the form of nitrous oxides when burned.

 

As you say, the main problem lies with infrastructure, but linked to this, producing it on the scale required. Hydrogen is not a readily accessible energy source like coal or wind. It is bound up tightly in molecules such as water and natural gas, so it is expensive and energy-intensive to extract and purify. Electrolysis is one possibility, but it is both expensive and inefficient. Another issue is capacity. At room temperature and pressure, hydrogen takes up some 3,000 times more space than gasoline containing an equivalent amount of energy. Liquid hydrogen fuel however has many benefits, including its low molecular weight and high energy output when burned - which is why it is employed as a rocket fuel. For both storage and fueling, liquids benefit from considerable advantages over gases having high energy density, being easier to transport, and typically, easier to handle. Hydrogen, however, is not typical. It becomes a liquid only at ­423 degrees Fahrenheit, just a few degrees above absolute zero therefore, it can only be stored in superinsulated cryogenic tanks. Liquefaction is also expensive and inefficient. Liquefying one kilogram (kg) of hydrogen using electricity from the national grid would by itself release some 18 to 21 pounds of CO2 into the atmosphere, roughly equal to the CO2 emitted by burning one gallon of gasoline. Furthermore, hydrogen can cause many metals, including the carbon steel widely used in gas pipelines, to become brittle.

 

Virtually all road going engines using hydrogen as a fuel source utilise compression but such high pressures creates system complexity and requires materials and components that are sophisticated and costly. In addition to this, there is the safety issue. In the event of leakage, hydrogen will rapidly escape as a diffuse gas into the atmosphere. It is also non-toxic. In spite of this, it is nonetheless highly flammable with an ignition energy that is 20 times smaller than that of natural gas or gasoline. That means, scarily, that it can be ignited by your mobile or even by lightening located miles away or static. Because it is odourless, any potentially dangerous leakage is difficult to detect. Also, hydrogen burns virtually invisibly, and people have unwittingly walked into hydrogen flames.

 

Practical hydrogen storage requires a major technology breakthrough, most likely in solid-state hydrogen storage - and that is many years away. In the meantime, who will spend the hundreds of billions of dollars on a wholly new nationwide infrastructure that you referred to in order to provide ready access to hydrogen for consumers with fuel cell vehicles until millions of hydrogen vehicles are on the road? And who will then manufacture and market such vehicles until the infrastructure is in place to fuel those vehicles? Will car companies and fuel providers be willing to take this chance before knowing whether the public will embrace these cars? A lay public already wary following the u-turn over diesel engines. 

Don’t give me problems, give me solutions smarty pants.

 

 

 

Seriously though, thanks for that, it was educational and really informative.

[WigstonWanderer]

6 hours ago, peach0000 said:

Well Tesla has a network of 150 and 250kw chargers so it may not be wrong. That's why a Tesla can get 80% charge in less than half an hour on a supercharger but it takes 20 odd hours on a normal three pin socket.

Yes that makes sense. So an overnight charge in the garage at home, say 12 hours should be good for normal range of a 50 km or so the next day. The old electric bill will go up a fair bit! Obviously offset by the absence of petrol bill. If my fag packet calculation is correct it works out at 0.5kw hr per km. Where I am that equates to about 15c AUD per km.

 

Also suggests that the Chinese charger (5 min charge) is likely to be over 0.5mw! Not sure what the voltage is but likely to be a huge current. I wonder if there are any safety concerns.

 

 

Edited 21 February 2021 by WigstonWanderer

[peach0000]

1 minute ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Yes that makes sense. So an overnight charge in the garage at home, say 12 hours should be good for normal range of a 50 km or so the next day. The old electric bill will go up a fair bit! Obviously offset by the absence of petrol bill. If my fag packet calculation is correct it works out at 0.5kw hr per km. Where it am that equates to about 15c AUD per km.

 

Also suggests that the Chinese charger (5 min charge) is likely to be over 0.5mw! Not sure what the voltage is but likely to be a huge current. I wonder if there are any safety concerns.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that you can get home chargers that can output a lot higher that a three pin socket as well. Obviously not supercharger levels but enough to charge your car in about 9-12 hours fully. As you say the electric bill goes up but it only costs around 15 pounds to fully charge and car from what I gather.