Jimmy Carr and that joke

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

Either it's all okay or none of it is, think one of the blokes who makes South Park said that. Offense is a point of view, I don't think a joke has ever or is likely to ever offend me. It's a joke, it might be a crap joke but be offended by something worthwhile like corrupt politicians or Leicesters defence or the cost of living crisis. 

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

The whole reaction has been extremely weird. It's Jimmy Carr. That's not even his most offensive joke. That's not even his most offensive joke about the Holocaust.

 

Was it offensive? Of course. Was it funny? Yes it was, because people laughed. Humour and offence are subjective. The clip was removed completely from its context including Carr's own explanation, deliberately to cause offence - some people are genuinely trying to suggest he's an actual Nazi and so are the people who laughed at the joke, which I find to be much more sinister than the actual joke. As is the comments from politicians on all sides that this could be a prosecutable offence. Serious people - politicians, activists, literal-minded and utterly joyless people - should absolutely not get to decide what artists are allowed to release to their audience, what broadcasters are allowed to provide, and what audiences are allowed to consume.

 

Chappelle got into hot water with trans activists because of his most recent special - which was brilliant BTW - in which he talked about a trans comedian who'd killed herself after being bullied by the same people for tweeting in support of him. This is part of that tweet: "He isn't punching up or punching down. He's punching lines. That's his job and he's a master of his craft". That, for me, applies perfectly to Carr and this joke.

Nah, he doesn't get to pretend that social strata doesn't exist or that people are discriminated against based on it just because he's on a high level of it.

 

"Punching up" and "punching down" are real things, Chappelle did it, and speaking purely for myself the latter is distasteful because it's pretty much bullying to go after someone who doesn't have that much social power in the first place.

Edited 8 February 2022 by leicsmac

[inckley fox]

4 hours ago, st albans fox said:

It’s simply unacceptable 

 

one of the main reasons that it’s unacceptable is because the traveller and Roma population are still subject to widespread racism 

 

and one of the main reasons for this is that jokes like this have been considered acceptable 

please don’t equate anti vaxers with a race which is subject to abuse - it’s a cheap shot and it doesn’t stand up to any debate

 

’dwarves’ - agree that making offensive jokes about dwarves is out of line. 
 

BUT making a joke about a group which isn’t hurtful is fine 

 

you can tell the joke that a Jewish mother is proud that her son wears his surgical mask to protect her when he visits but at the same time it upsets her because it reminds her that he isn’t a doctor.  That’s acceptable  because the stereotype of the Jewish mother wanting her son to be a doctor is not offensive or hurtful in any way. 
 

It’s going to be very difficult to find any ‘joke’ about the holocaust amusing or acceptable.  Maybe in a hundred years if we’ve moved on as a society and there is no racism then you could find an angle …….but we are still so far from there. 

 

I'm not sure that it's impossible for something about the Holocaust to be amusing. I can't remember who it was who said 'there was a lot of gallows humour in Dresden, and I bet there was a lot in Auschwitz too'. I suppose you could satirise someone's ignorance of the Holocaust effectively, or even someone's fixation on it. I can't name one, but there are a whole load of things which might be funny, and wouldn't necessarily break any rule that Peter Cook or Chris Morris didn't break.

 

That's definitely not what Jimmy Carr has done. But I wouldn't want to silence him either. It's pretty healthy for people to see Jimmy Carr's joke and decide that they didn't like it. I still love that footage of Mrs Merton destroying Bernard Manning. I'm glad they let him on TV to be subjected to that, and now I take plenty of comfort in seeing it dawn on people that Jimmy Carr is a cretin. I honestly don't believe it's done anyone any harm at all to find that out. So I reckon silencing him would just be counterproductive. 

[Jon the Hat]

3 hours ago, st albans fox said:

I suggest people laughed because they were part of an audience at a comedy performance …..they were expecting to hear something funny and responded on auto pilot …perhaps most of the laughter was that embarrassed kind of laughter where you just feel really awkward ? 

 

had you told them that ‘joke’ out of context and not been Jimmy Carr then I reckon 99% of those audience members wouldn’t have laughed -
 

I’m yet to find anyone who has said they found it to be funny …..

I found it funny, though I can also see why others don't.  It is funny to me because it plays on the racism which as someone said is still somehow acceptable against gypsies.  Its a classic form of joke where you make a widely held and sensible build up then take a tangent in the punchline by playing on a well known (but clearly wrong) point of view.  If there were no racism against Gypsies there would be no shock and no humour in it.  It is exactly like playing on a stereotype of Jews or anyone else, only he used a an extreme stereotype.

[WigstonWanderer]

15 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I found it funny, though I can also see why others don't.  It is funny to me because it plays on the racism which as someone said is still somehow acceptable against gypsies.  Its a classic form of joke where you make a widely held and sensible build up then take a tangent in the punchline by playing on a well known (but clearly wrong) point of view.  If there were no racism against Gypsies there would be no shock and no humour in it.  It is exactly like playing on a stereotype of Jews or anyone else, only he used a an extreme stereotype.

I think this is what is missed by the “take offence“ brigade. Humour can often be used to laugh at prejudice and so defuse its sting. An example is the old Harry Enfield sketches about women in early to mid 20th century Britain. Is Enfield a misogynist or anti feminist? No, quite the reverse, he’s encouraging us to laugh at the stereotypes of the past.

 

I do think these things go in cycles though. Comedy gets increasingly restricted by societal norms until there is a backlash, as I believe happened in the uptight fifties when Lennie Bruce broke through. The uptight new Puritanism of current society is missing a trick in the fight against prejudice. It needs to be laughed AT. Future generations will no doubt stage a backlash.

Edited 8 February 2022 by WigstonWanderer

[Jon the Hat]

2 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

I think this is what is missed by the “take offence“ brigade. Humour can often be used to laugh at prejudice and so defuse its sting. An example is the old Harry Enfield sketches about women in early to mid 20th century Britain. Is Enfield a misogynist or anti feminist? No, quite the reverse, he’s encouraging us to laugh at the stereotypes of the past.

 

I do think these things go in cycles though. Comedy gets increasingly restricted by societal norms until there is a backlash, as I believe happened in the uptight fifties when Lennie Bruce broke through. The uptight new Puritanism of current society is missing a trick in the fight against prejudice. It needs to be laughed AT. Future generations will stage a backlash.

Puritanism is a terrible approach to anything.  The younger generations are so ready to take offence - often on behalf of someone else who isn't actually offended.

Edited 8 February 2022 by Jon the Hat

[leicsmac]

18 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I found it funny, though I can also see why others don't.  It is funny to me because it plays on the racism which as someone said is still somehow acceptable against gypsies.  Its a classic form of joke where you make a widely held and sensible build up then take a tangent in the punchline by playing on a well known (but clearly wrong) point of view.  If there were no racism against Gypsies there would be no shock and no humour in it.  It is exactly like playing on a stereotype of Jews or anyone else, only he used a an extreme stereotype.

 

3 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

I think this is what is missed by the “take offence“ brigade. Humour can often be used to laugh at prejudice and so defuse its sting. An example is the old Harry Enfield sketches about women in early to mid 20th century Britain. Is Enfield a misogynist or anti feminist? No, quite the reverse, he’s encouraging us to laugh at the stereotypes of the past.

 

I do think these things go in cycles though. Comedy gets increasingly restricted by societal norms until there is a backlash, as I believe happened in the uptight fifties when Lennie Bruce broke through. The uptight new Puritanism of current society is missing a trick in the fight against prejudice. It needs to be laughed AT. Future generations will no doubt stage a backlash.

This is an interesting and valid point.

 

I guess the problem arises when it's difficult to tell whether or not the person involved is actually taking the piss out of the prejudice itself or taking shots at those prejudiced against for controversy points. That can often be very subjective and difficult to parse.

[Jon the Hat]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

This is an interesting and valid point.

 

I guess the problem arises when it's difficult to tell whether or not the person involved is actually taking the piss out of the prejudice itself or taking shots at those prejudiced against for controversy points. That can often be very subjective and difficult to parse.

I think we can probably assume as Carr is a professional comedian, performing in front of a crowd who went to see his comedy, filmed by Netflix as a comedy show and watched by millions as a comedy show that it was a joke, not a deeply held racist viewpoint he was just dying to get out there.

Edited 8 February 2022 by Jon the Hat

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I think we can probably assume as Carr is a professional comedian, performing in front of a crowd who went to see his comedy, filmed by Netflix as a comedy show and watched by millions as a comedy show that it was a joke, not a deeply held racist viewpoint he was just dying to get out there.

The key word in the sentence there being probably.

 

Perhaps I'm overly cynical on this one, but then I look at the various prejudices that are held around the world and feel that perhaps I might be right to be. Funny thing is though, I do also believe that humans can (and must) look past their differences and actually make a common cause given time and thought.

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

It's like the South Park guys or frankie Boyle, they stray the wrong side of the line on occasion but people who take offense are massively missing the point that's trying to be made by simply highlighting how absurd certain viewpoints are. 

[Dahnsouff]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

The key word in the sentence there being probably.

 

Perhaps I'm overly cynical on this one, but then I look at the various prejudices that are held around the world and feel that perhaps I might be right to be. Funny thing is though, I do also believe that humans can (and must) look past their differences and actually make a common cause given time and thought.

This is key, as we are not dealing with definitives here, as comedy is judged by the consumer and not be those delivering it. There will be many different takes on what was said and how it was delivered, as what Carr meant is secondary to what people thought he may nor may not have meant, and he was brave to go with the joke in that respect.

[Facecloth]

7 hours ago, leicsmac said:

 

This is an interesting and valid point.

 

I guess the problem arises when it's difficult to tell whether or not the person involved is actually taking the piss out of the prejudice itself or taking shots at those prejudiced against for controversy points. That can often be very subjective and difficult to parse.

Sorry but couldn't help but think of this

 

 

 

[st albans fox]

7 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Puritanism is a terrible approach to anything.  The younger generations are so ready to take offence - often on behalf of someone else who isn't actually offended.

I’m really not the type of person to take offence 

I do laugh at stuff I know I shouldn’t but some things are just funny …….

 

but I simply cannot find the reverse angle on this ‘joke’.  It’s way too obtuse to me. If he wanted to make a point about racism against Roma then there are surely better tangents to have taken  …..

[filbertway]

11 hours ago, st albans fox said:

I suggest people laughed because they were part of an audience at a comedy performance …..they were expecting to hear something funny and responded on auto pilot …perhaps most of the laughter was that embarrassed kind of laughter where you just feel really awkward ? 

 

had you told them that ‘joke’ out of context and not been Jimmy Carr then I reckon 99% of those audience members wouldn’t have laughed -
 

I’m yet to find anyone who has said they found it to be funny …..

I found it funny

 

I did watch the whole show though and not just a specific 10 second clip.

[Strokes]

The reaction to it is funnier than the joke.

[Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo]

Just seen the joke for first time, how has this been blown so far out of proportion? 

 

Paraphrasing, it's "Everyone knows about the millions of Jewish lives lost in the holocaust. But no one mentions the thousands of gypsies killed too*... because no one wants to talk about the positives of the holocaust**"

 

*This is the important bit, because it's true - it is not well documented or taught that races other than Jewish people were also wiped out under the Nazi control.

**And of course the punchline - is deflective humour. A well-spoken man on a stage informing people of gypsies also being killed at the hands of the Nazis would usually go on to tell more about the fact or end it there, so anything resembling a punchline will get a laugh off of an audience at a comedy gig.

 

To take away from that that "Jimmy Carr supports the genocide of Roma gypsises", "Jimmy Carr is antisemetic", "The audience are all sickos who want to murder gypsies" is all pretty bizarre. It's not a particularly clever or original gag, but I can't see how it is warranting anywhere near the criticism it's getting. Carr and plenty of other popular stand-up comedians regularly have jokes that include taboo topics, that rarely ever get highlighted

[Facecloth]

58 minutes ago, Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo said:

Just seen the joke for first time, how has this been blown so far out of proportion? 

 

Paraphrasing, it's "Everyone knows about the millions of Jewish lives lost in the holocaust. But no one mentions the thousands of gypsies killed too*... because no one wants to talk about the positives of the holocaust**"

 

*This is the important bit, because it's true - it is not well documented or taught that races other than Jewish people were also wiped out under the Nazi control.

**And of course the punchline - is deflective humour. A well-spoken man on a stage informing people of gypsies also being killed at the hands of the Nazis would usually go on to tell more about the fact or end it there, so anything resembling a punchline will get a laugh off of an audience at a comedy gig.

 

To take away from that that "Jimmy Carr supports the genocide of Roma gypsises", "Jimmy Carr is antisemetic", "The audience are all sickos who want to murder gypsies" is all pretty bizarre. It's not a particularly clever or original gag, but I can't see how it is warranting anywhere near the criticism it's getting. Carr and plenty of other popular stand-up comedians regularly have jokes that include taboo topics, that rarely ever get highlighted

Don't even think it's the worst joke Carr has made regarding the Holocaust. Years back he said "People say there's safety in numbers. Try telling that to 6m Jews."

 

He also said this one, that didn't pick up much criticism either.

 

 

Edited 8 February 2022 by Facecloth

[Captain...]

I think the big problem is that people have forgotten who Jimmy Carr is, he isn't the unruffled host of panel shows with a funny laugh and a cheeky smile, that's just his side hustle. He made his name in stand up making dark jokes that most other people couldn't get away with. This is not his first Holocaust joke, he has also made jokes about rape and disability. He even said his favourite response to a joke is a mixture of gasps, oohs, and nervous laughs that snowball into a full on laugh.

 

So knowing that you should know what to expect, he will say anything regardless of how taboo it is, if it will get a laugh, and it normally does because of his delivery. The build up is very typical of a Carr joke, but it does require a bit of knowledge in the part of the listener. If you didn't know that Roma and other travellers were also killed in the Holocaust then it will make no sense, likewise if you weren't aware of the common trope that people don't mention the thousands of "gypsies" killed, then the set up will fall flat. Without that context it is probably not even a joke just an offensive statement.

 

Knowing Jimmy Carr's style, it is not racist humour for racist purposes, but offensive humour to shock and the humour comes from the unexpected nature of the punchline. Similar to Gervais and Boyle, if you offend easily don't watch/listen. 

[bovril]

18 minutes ago, Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo said:

 

*This is the important bit, because it's true - it is not well documented or taught that races other than Jewish people were also wiped out under the Nazi control.

 

Leaving aside the legitimacy of the joke, it is extremely well documented and taught that non-Jewish groups were killed en masse in the holocaust. I'm surprised people would think otherwise. 

[Captain...]

8 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Don't even think it's the worst joke Carr has made regarding the Holocaust. Years back he said "People say there's safety in numbers. Try telling that to £6m Jews."

 

He also said this one, that didn't pick up much criticism either.

 

 

That clip perfectly illustrates his joke writing approach, the biggest issue with this joke is there is no clever turn of phrase, it is not based on a play of words, it is subverting expectations but the expectations are not particularly common or well known. If you tell a variation on that joke in Scotland about a tragedy in England for example, then the expectation is everyone in Scotland "hates" the English or at least knows that stereotype.

[Guest BlueBrett]

I despair

[ealingfox]

To borrow a more general comedic principle, if you need to explain why a joke is funny it probably wasn't.

[Captain...]

4 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

To borrow a more general comedic principle, if you need to explain why a joke is funny it probably wasn't.

But he didn't need to explain it to his audience, that is why comedy is subjective.

[filbertway]

1 minute ago, ealingfox said:

To borrow a more general comedic principle, if you need to explain why a joke is funny it probably wasn't.

I agree with this, if someone doesn't find it funny then it's not funny. If they do then it is. It's a personal thing to the person who heard the joke, not universal.

 

I've never known anyone try to explain a joke to someone and then they go "ohhh, yeaah, that is funny".

 

The only thing you can know for sure is that it's a joke whether you find it or funny or not. It's not a representation of them or their views.

[ClaphamFox]

1 minute ago, ealingfox said:

To borrow a more general comedic principle, if you need to explain why a joke is funny it probably wasn't.

Not everybody will get a joke, but that won't lessen the joke for those who do get it. I remember just before the 2014 World Cup Paddy Power posted a tweet which appeared to show that they'd arranged for a huge swathe of trees in the Brazilian rainforest to be cut down to say, "C'mon England!" when filmed from above. Cue a complete meltdown on twitter - people were going absolutely nuts about this outrageous act of violence done to the beautiful rainforest! Other people knew immediately that it must be a joke and found it quite funny. When Paddy Power eventually revealed that they'd used some sophisticated photoshop technology to fake the image, lots of the folk who'd taken offence whined that it was a bad joke because they didn't get it.

 

The point being: a joke will remain funny to somebody who gets it even if other people don't get it. In some cases, the fact that some people don't get it will make it even funnier to those who do (see Chris Morris's humour, etc).