foxile5 Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 2 minutes ago, CloudFox said: There's no need to bring gender or identity into this. Some commentators are bad (Michael Owen, Karen Carney), others are good (Emma Hayes, Ally McCoist). Whatever reason they appear to have been hired for, they need to be knowledgeable and have a good delivery. If they don't, don't hire them. If it is about improving equality, then those hired either need to be of the highest quality, or be trained to get there. A good example of improving them would be Alan Shearer, who was an awful pundit when he first started, but whom I now quite enjoy. Gender does come into it though because its clear there's a hiring policy at the minute which is intended to bring women's football to the fore. It's acceptable comment even if you don't agree with its source concern. 1
Pliskin Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 Does it matter? In all honesty? I don’t mind Karen at all, she’s more qualified than you or I to talk about it. Just starting the topic shows that the OP has some prejudices. Attitudes like this just prove we’re still not able to step away from the dark ages.
UHDrive Posted 30 July 2022 Author Posted 30 July 2022 1 minute ago, Sampson said: OK then: "What I don't like is having commentators placed into my football games that cannot do their job. Karen today was typically awful, she wasn't specific, she didn't call out or explain the sequencing of events during matches and when asked her thoughts on player instances, she muddled through it using phraseology that I'm not used to as a fan and I can only frame it as amateur because it sounds amateur. We are entering our second season whereby I feel the media are pushing for equality (ex female footballers) over professionalism and enjoyment of the game. *this isn't about being sexist, it is about the difference in knowledge and football history that the men's game have instilled it vs change being applied and pressured to force conformity in equality." It's the same argument. The reason women's football was amateur until only the past 4 or 5 years is because of systemic discrimination including women's football being banned at being played at the same level's as men's until the 1970s. Secondly, since when are male commentators ex-professional players who have a vital understanding of the intricices of the game anyway? Most of the best football jounralists/pundits/commentators never played the game professionally either and there's a glut of terrible pundits who only get jobs as pundits because they were big name players. How does someone's sex matter with regards to this? That is utterly rubbish in my opinion. The women's game has had money thrown at it left right and centre. Aside from the wsl and the half a dozen decent teams, the English female game isn't exactly advanced is it? It isn't advanced in every level from players to training grounds to stadiums and supporters. So where is the reasoning behind your argument that equality should reign on media outputs yet your physical game is mediocre to the men's? I wouldn't mind so much in 10-20 years if and when (which I hope it does) the female game catches up and the experience follows. Forcing it is my problem. 1
The Doctor Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 "I'm not sexist, I'm just saying sexist things" Like my dude if you think men just know football better than women I'm assuming you think that Michael Owen and Jermaine Jenas are better pundits than Emma Hayes and Alex Scott? 1
Jordan Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 I think Jacqui Oatley is great on the mic and a real pro in everything she does in football media.
mod hero Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 7 minutes ago, Guest said: We won't though will we Sure you realised it was jest
UHDrive Posted 30 July 2022 Author Posted 30 July 2022 5 minutes ago, Royston. said: Male or female, some commentators are just crap. I'm still allowed to say that, right? Hahaha. I guess so! Yes, totally agree it does apply to the men as well. My post was a different dynamic that's all.
The Doctor Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 4 minutes ago, foxile5 said: Gender does come into it though because its clear there's a hiring policy at the minute which is intended to bring women's football to the fore. It's acceptable comment even if you don't agree with its source concern. Or after decades we've stopped suppressing women in football as much (remember women's football was effectively banned by the FA for half a century) and this is just not as much an artificial inflation of the male:female ratio
mod hero Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 2 minutes ago, The Doctor said: "I'm not sexist, I'm just saying sexist things" Like my dude if you think men just know football better than women I'm assuming you think that Michael Owen and Jermaine Jenas are better pundits than Emma Hayes and Alex Scott? Yep, and he’s terrible
foxile5 Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 5 minutes ago, Pliskin said: Does it matter? In all honesty? I don’t mind Karen at all, she’s more qualified than you or I to talk about it. Just starting the topic shows that the OP has some prejudices. Attitudes like this just prove we’re still not able to step away from the dark ages. Qualification doesn't equal competency though. I'm pretty highly qualified in a specific field of my job - Masters and pending PhD - but I'm nowhere near qualified enough to publicly present. It doesn't equate.
foxile5 Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 1 minute ago, foxile5 said: Qualification doesn't equal competency though. I'm pretty highly qualified in a specific field of my job - Masters and pending PhD - but I'm nowhere near qualified enough to publicly present. It doesn't equate. Competent enough to present publicly, sorry. I'm a woeful orator.
The Doctor Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 Just now, mod hero said: Yep, and he’s terrible I mean, you can claim you'd rather listen to Michael "Jamie Vardy isn't a natural finisher" Owen over an insightful and successful coach like Hayes but I'd have trouble believing anyone actually meant that unless they just tune out when women are talking
Guest David Oldfields Gate Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 If I want to hear a woman give a crap explanation I'll go into the kitchen and ask her why the car has another dent in it.
foxile5 Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 3 minutes ago, The Doctor said: Or after decades we've stopped suppressing women in football as much (remember women's football was effectively banned by the FA for half a century) and this is just not as much an artificial inflation of the male:female ratio You're right about the surpression. However, merely appointing people to positions doesn't equate to parity. It just denigrates the position. Anyway. The two sports are different disciplines beyond the core.
HankMarvin Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 1 minute ago, The Doctor said: "I'm not sexist, I'm just saying sexist things" Like my dude if you think men just know football better than women I'm assuming you think that Michael Owen and Jermaine Jenas are better pundits than Emma Hayes and Alex Scott? Sorry but Emma Hayes was a bad example, comparing players to play in multiple Euros and World Cup finals. To someone managing womens football in America and then the last 10 odd years in the Uk with attendances similar to conference games. Even if Owen spouts crap you have to respect his experience from playing in big matches.
Pliskin Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, foxile5 said: Qualification doesn't equal competency though. I'm pretty highly qualified in a specific field of my job - Masters and pending PhD - but I'm nowhere near qualified enough to publicly present. It doesn't equate. It doesn’t no. But willingness to do it will do. Karen has put herself out there, she’s been willing to do whatever to prolong her football career. She’s also been very open about her personal life which resonates with a lot of British broadcasting organisations at the moment. I don’t mind her at all, she’s just talking about a game she loves, and I don’t think anyone has a right to dictate that. Michael Owen is shit, and a complete tosspot, but I would wish him away just because I think he’s a bellend. I’m pretty sure most people think I’m a bellend, but I wouldn’t like to think I’d get wished away from my career because of it. To be honest, I rarely listen to the commentators. I’m too busy shouting at the tele. Edited 30 July 2022 by Pliskin
StanSP Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 There are some female commentators or pundits that are million miles better than some of the male ones. 1
CloudFox Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, foxile5 said: Gender does come into it though because its clear there's a hiring policy at the minute which is intended to bring women's football to the fore. It's acceptable comment even if you don't agree with its source concern. It only comes into it if you focus on it being women. The reality is that it is important to diversify the commentators we experience, for the betterment of the sport and audience. If you listen to the same type of commentator on repeat you will never get as valuable an experience as if you improved the diversity of voices. You need different viewpoints to craft a good narrative. Black, white, brown, male, female, cis, trans, non-binary and more. Adding those voices to your experience enriches it. It's when the quality is not there that there is a problem. And hopefully we will see that improve across the board, but there has to be training for this. Edited 30 July 2022 by CloudFox
The Doctor Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 1 minute ago, HankMarvin said: Sorry but Emma Hayes was a bad example, comparing players to play in multiple Euros and World Cup finals. To someone managing womens football in America and then the last 10 odd years in the Uk with attendances similar to conference games. Even if Owen spouts crap you have to respect his experience from playing in big matches. Playing in big matches is kinda irrelevant? You could find a dozen players who've played in World Cup Finals and don't know what day of the week it is without having to open the calendar app on their phone. Owens analysis of the game is crap, Hayes has good tactical insight and offers interesting points in analysis. As a pundit she outstrips him completely
foxile5 Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 3 minutes ago, Pliskin said: It doesn’t no. But willingness to do it will do. Karen has put herself out there, she’s been willing to do whatever to prolong her football career. She’s also been very open about her personal life which resonates with a lot of British broadcasting organisations at the moment. I don’t mind her at all, she’s just talking about a game she loves, and I don’t think anyone has a right to dictate that. Michael Owen is shit, and a complete tosspot, but I would wish him away just because I think he’s a bellend. I’m pretty sure most people think I’m a bellend, but I wouldn’t like to think I’d get wished away from my career because of it. To be honest, I rarely listen to the commentators. I’m too busy shouting at the tele. Willingness in certain arenas works well enough. Commentary on a major football game is a consumer driven product and it shouldn't be enough to say 'they tried'.
HankMarvin Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, The Doctor said: Playing in big matches is kinda irrelevant? You could find a dozen players who've played in World Cup Finals and don't know what day of the week it is without having to open the calendar app on their phone. Owens analysis of the game is crap, Hayes has good tactical insight and offers interesting points in analysis. As a pundit she outstrips him completely In your opinion, and that’s who you are happy to listen to then great. I’m sure there are a lot of lower league managers that could offer a lot more insight with a huge number of games as manager to draw from, but they would never be given the chance. Why? Because they are not seen as having the relevant top flight experience. Edited 30 July 2022 by HankMarvin 1
mod hero Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 1 minute ago, The Doctor said: I mean, you can claim you'd rather listen to Michael "Jamie Vardy isn't a natural finisher" Owen over an insightful and successful coach like Hayes but I'd have trouble believing anyone actually meant that unless they just tune out when women are talking Not a claim, Michael Owen has won a balon d’or and has played at an elite level. So that has to be respected. He’s not a great pundit by any level admittedly. I would still prefer to listen to him over any of the women that have been forced upon us. none of us knew who Alex Scott, Karen Carney etc were until they were shoehorned in. I don’t respect their views and insights. This country has done a great job to thrust womens football into the limelight and I’m all for it, I’d just prefer it if the female pundits covered the womens game which now has the exposure and leave the ex pros (males) to do our football. 1
volpeazzurro Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 22 minutes ago, winteriscoming said: I think Sue Smith is a very good co commentator/pundit. Prob an unpopular opinion but I find Alex Scott dull and predictable with her opinions. As is Jermaine Jenas.
splinterdream Posted 30 July 2022 Posted 30 July 2022 Call me sexist, I don't care, I don't like female commentators, co-commentators in the men's game when there are plenty of ex pros (men) that could do it and I'd be far more interested in what they have to say, there's even women on twitter complaining about it, I just don't see what they add to the experience of watching a match on the tele 1
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