Are We Just a Case Study?

[UniFox21]

6 minutes ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Much easier to sustain in Germany, where there is only one obscenely rich, dominant force. In England there are now 7.

Also not forgetting they're champions league regulars, often picking up trophies in Germany and regularly pushing Munich to the line. They aren't no slouches in terms of income 

[SouthStandUpperTier]

2 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

Very true, but at one point we were looking very good squad wise until mismanagement and a change of transfer focus occurred, I think that's what galls the most.

Trouble is Dortmund can have a down season and still qualify for Champions League. If we have a down season we have no chance. We are screwed.

[tinpot_fox]

What model is Chelsea running these days?

[Chelmofox]

5 minutes ago, tinpot_fox said:

What model is Chelsea running these days?

Rich Sugar Daddy. 

 

They will just keep doing it until it works.

[Qwerty]

1 hour ago, Chelmofox said:

Nope. There is only one model that works, and that is the 'obscenely rich sugar daddy' model. All other models provide temporary success depending on how lucky you get with recruitment or youth players. Brighton and Brentford will break at some point, it will just be a matter of time. The money and player power is so obscene,  it only takes a few mistakes before you are paying complete dross crazy wages, or players are running down contracts and you can't do anything about it. 

 

For a while, lots of things aligned perfectly for us. But in hindsight, i don't think we were the model at all. Things just worked, and then they didn't.

I agree.  We got lucky for a few years, now this season we've been unlucky.  Next season 3 more teams will get unlucky.  It's a merry-go-round.  But at the end of the day , 3 teams HAVE to go down each year, and all of them will have fans wondering where it went wrong. 

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

I think we got sentimental and kept on players like Maddison, Tielemans, Ndidi when the model had previously been to cash in and reinvest in promising young players. Not only did we not do that but instead we bought supposed ‘established’ players who were dogshit. And the young promising players we did buy also turned to be dog shit. All to expand the squad to compete in Europe, but in reality we were left with a bloated squad full of dog shit on big money, which is impossible to move on. All meaning pretty much no competition for places, things becoming stale and also perhaps contributing to overplaying and injuries.

 

Add to all that the contract situation and you have a pretty perfect storm. If reports are true, Rodgers was instrumental in moving away from the model of selling assets to reinvest. Presumably because he thought keeping talent was going to pave the way for more success... I’d love to know how much power he had in the structure of the club compared to others.
 

 

Edited 16 May 2023 by Wasyls Pec Deck

[Qwerty]

1 minute ago, Wasyls Pec Deck said:

I think we got sentimental and kept on players like Maddison, Tielemans, Ndidi when the model had previously been to cash in and reinvest in promising young players. Not only did we not do that but instead we bought supposed ‘established’ players who were dogshit. And the young promising players we did but also turned to be dog shit. All to expand the squad to compete in Europe, but in reality we left with a bloated squad full of dog shit on big money, which is impossible to move on. All meaning pretty much no competition for places, things becoming stale and also perhaps contributing to overplaying and injuries.

 

Add to all the contract situation and you have a pretty perfect storm. If reports are right, Rodgers was instrumental in moving away from the model of selling assets to reinvest. I’d love to know how much power he had in the structure of the club compared to others.
 

 

Yes and the difference between us and the rich teams is that if we make mistakes then we can't absorb the costs.  If Man City etc sign a player for £80 million on £200k a week, and they turn out to be shit, they just bench them and keep buying till they get a good one.  If other teams do that they're screwed. 

Next season a couple of the newly promoted teams will probably get relegated because they weren't really up to it.  But one of the current Prem survivors will go down too, for essentially similar reasons to us. 

[Stadt]

We chose to splash our record net spend on Daka, Soumare, Vestergaard and Bertrand . We'd needed a proper right winger since 2018 so we signed a back up striker, panic bought an ill-fitting CB for an injured player, an unnecessary CM and a washed up LB.

 

How much of the model club moniker came from Man United's frivolity after they signed Maguire?  18/19 was the only very good window we've had in the last 5 years. The others were all mixed.

Edited 16 May 2023 by Stadt

[tinpot_fox]

1 minute ago, Stadt said:

We chose to splash our record net spend on Daka, Soumare, Vestergaard and Bertrand . We'd needed a proper right winger since 2018 so we signed a back up striker, panic bought an ill-fitting CB for an injured player, an unnecessary CM and a washed up LB.

 

How much of the model club tinker came from Man United's frivolity?  18/19 was the only very good window we've had in the last 5 years. The others were all mixed.

Rodger’s probably summed up the prevailing attitude with his remarks that he could see Ward was struggling but thought giving him more games would see him come good eventually. I doubt Man Utd would be that frivolous and as you say, would bench and non performing player and start again. The model of a squad changing massively season on season would also denote changing styles every season to suit the new players, something we refused to do. Like for like replacements have not been put strong point.

[CyprusFox]

30 minutes ago, Qwerty said:

I agree.  We got lucky for a few years, now this season we've been unlucky.  Next season 3 more teams will get unlucky.  It's a merry-go-round.  But at the end of the day , 3 teams HAVE to go down each year, and all of them will have fans wondering where it went wrong. 

Yeah but not many of them will have won the league and fa cup in the last 10 years. I think that's why our predicament seems worse

[Dan]

31 minutes ago, Stadt said:

We chose to splash our record net spend on Daka, Soumare, Vestergaard and Bertrand . We'd needed a proper right winger since 2018 so we signed a back up striker, panic bought an ill-fitting CB for an injured player, an unnecessary CM and a washed up LB.

 

How much of the model club moniker came from Man United's frivolity after they signed Maguire?  18/19 was the only very good window we've had in the last 5 years. The others were all mixed.

That's basically it. One moment of madness from another club while we profited from the one good window we've had in years (so had Soyuncu ready) pulled the wool over peoples eyes.

 

We lost scouts to other clubs because they didn't feel valued or listened to, because it was Rodgers and Congerton's way or no way. We're getting our karma.

[David Hankey]

It seems to me this Club lost it's way when Vichai died. He had the dream, the desire and the belief. 

 

Top is not his dad and the lack of incisive decision making has brought about our demise.

 

Millions of pounds have been poured into the Club both in terms of players and their salaries and the facilities and all for what?

 

Millions of pounds have been wasted and it has been heartbreaking to see and it will have been one of the most expensive experiment in the history of football.

 

So, after all the theorising we are where we and to that extent we have to make the most of it and, hopefully, learn by our mistakes.

[Stadt]

1 minute ago, Dan LCFC said:

That's basically it. One moment of madness from another club while we profited from the one good window we've had in years (so had Soyuncu ready) pulled the wool over peoples eyes.

 

We lost scouts to other clubs because they didn't feel valued or listened to, because it was Rodgers and Congerton's way or no way. We're getting our karma.

Sormaz, Fontes, Macia, McGuinness, Rennie - all with proven track records, how long did they stick around for?

[Guest Mee-9]

Everyone says about Brighton having the blueprint. 

 

But have they? Yeah they're having a great season but what we have done over the past few years has eclipsed anything they will achieve. In a few seasons they'll be mid-table and in the bottom half. 

 

They are a bloody well run football club, but their success has been over a number of years. But they'll fade when people come in for Caicedo, Mitoma, Mac Allister (who's already off to Liverpool it seems) and Ferguson. 

 

Only takes them to go and buy a few players who don't work and bang they're where we are. 

[Dan]

2 hours ago, Mee-9 said:

Everyone says about Brighton having the blueprint. 

 

But have they? Yeah they're having a great season but what we have done over the past few years has eclipsed anything they will achieve. In a few seasons they'll be mid-table and in the bottom half. 

 

They are a bloody well run football club, but their success has been over a number of years. But they'll fade when people come in for Caicedo, Mitoma, Mac Allister (who's already off to Liverpool it seems) and Ferguson. 

 

Only takes them to go and buy a few players who don't work and bang they're where we are. 

They lost Bissouma, Maupay, Cucurella, White, Mwepu and Trossard in the last couple of years. I think they're more prepared than you're giving credit for.

Edited 16 May 2023 by Dan LCFC

[Stadt]

3 minutes ago, Mee-9 said:

Everyone says about Brighton having the blueprint. 

 

But have they? Yeah they're having a great season but what we have done over the past few years has eclipsed anything they will achieve. In a few seasons they'll be mid-table and in the bottom half. 

 

They are a bloody well run football club, but their success has been over a number of years. But they'll fade when people come in for Caicedo, Mitoma, Mac Allister (who's already off to Liverpool it seems) and Ferguson. 

 

Only takes them to go and buy a few players who don't work and bang they're where we are. 

They're more data driven than pretty much anybody and given they cast their net wider they'll keep signing these players. Enciso and Buonanotte are the sort of signings elite clubs make. Bloom's success with Union SG is impressive too and suggests that it's sustainable for Brighton 

[Tuna]

!

Edited 16 May 2023 by Tuna

[davieG]

3 hours ago, FoxCal said:

We were the model. Middling club to consistently challenging for European places, winning Domestic trophies, a scouting setup the envy of Europe. Even talked about as part of a possible ‘Big Seven’ at one point.

 

We’ve given clubs like Brighton the blueprint on how to push on and plenty will attempt to emulate it for years to come.

 

Now, we’re the model again but this time on what not to do. I don’t know how we got here - yes, the ludicrous contracts, the dreadful recruitment, decisions to hold onto Management who were long past their use by - but how did we lose sight of ourselves so badly? It’s no one thing, I’m aware, but this will be cited as one of the biggest falls from grace in modern sport.

 

This isn’t a case of ‘club gets investment and investment goes away’, or a long, arduous decline over years that the likes of Villa went through and Everton are in the midst of. I can’t think of a time the wheels came off this quickly. The signs were there last year, but even if I expected a poor season from us, I never could have envisioned it being this bad. That’s probably as much of the problem as anything else, though.

Portsmouth have had a massive fall off quite quickly.

 

2007 - PL 8th / FA Cup Winners

2010 - Administration, relegation to Championship / FA -  Cup losing finalists

2013 - League 2

[Dahnsouff]

2 hours ago, honeybradger said:

Villa arent well run, they just got lucky signing Emery. Compare that to ourselves who identified foreign and local talent for low prices who went on be far better than their value, we clearly had a more sustainable system. Sadly we gave an egomaniac too much power and took too long to get rid of him so it all came crumbling down.

Was more a comment on the non-usual suspects punching above their perceived weight, so could have easily have added Brentford or Fulham instead.

[Qwerty]

51 minutes ago, CyprusFox said:

Yeah but not many of them will have won the league and fa cup in the last 10 years. I think that's why our predicament seems worse

True but it's all relative.  Teams like Chelsea have won loads of stuff for years and spent crazy amounts of money, and by their standards they've failed this year.  Ironically I think our high achievement might have contributed to our relegation, because it gave us more optimism/arrogance, and led us to spend more money than teams like Crystal Palace who play safe and do just enough to stay mid table. 

[UniFox21]

29 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

They lost Bissouma, Maupay, Cucurella, White, Mewpu and Trossard in the last couple of years. I think they're more prepared than you're giving credit for.

Very similar to us, they've raked big sums for average players they've made seem exceptional.

 

27 minutes ago, Stadt said:

They're more data driven than pretty much anybody and given they cast their net wider they'll keep signing these players. Enciso and Buonanotte are the sort of signings elite clubs make. Bloom's success with Union SG is impressive too and suggests that it's sustainable for Brighton 

Data can be wrong when applied to real world. Look at us with Hernandez for instance, and Soumare etc. 

They've made a some great signings, replacing those they've sold for big.

But inevitably a few will demand more money and others not settle as expected and things start to fall off. 

[Phil Bowman]

4 hours ago, FoxCal said:

this will be cited as one of the biggest falls from grace in modern sport.

It really won't. It's a Premier League football club getting relegated, it happens to three of them every year, and it's not like we're Man City, or Liverpool, or any of the moneybags seven. We'll be upset of course, and for a week or two there will be opinion pieces about how the champions of seven years ago getting relegated illustrates the precariousness of Premier League football for thirteen of the twenty clubs, and then that'll be it done for most people.

[Fear Of The Fox]

3 hours ago, Stadt said:

It was totally avoidable, I never really bought the model club hypothesis because our recruitment was too erratic. 

I don't get it. How was it avoidable? Board tried to make it avoidable by paying excessive wages. Ofc in long term this wouldn't work. Team is based in Leicester. Provided world class footballers to other clubs. These players used the club and its success as a stepping stone. Fair enough, won't blame them. Board should have been clear and honest about the team expectations and take action. Selling left and right our best players didn't fit the narrative of our board expectations. 

For me it's simple, do you want to be a powerhouse in PL? You'll do everything to achieve it. Even relocate the team. You can't always be lucky transfers wise. Our quite wealthy board had the ambition to make this team a PL top 4-6 one. Their decisions and actions were far away from that. 

Edited 16 May 2023 by Fear Of The Fox

[honeybradger]

1 hour ago, Dahnsouff said:

Was more a comment on the non-usual suspects punching above their perceived weight, so could have easily have added Brentford or Fulham instead.

That's fair. I think Villa have gone under the radar as a 'money' club. With the amount of spending they do each summer you would probably expect them to be competing for Europa.

 

Brighton as well have spent a lot of money but their best signings have been the cheap ones whereas their more expensive ones seem to have been swept under the rug, so it seems like theyve been doing really efficient business.

[Stadt]

50 minutes ago, UniFox21 said:

Very similar to us, they've raked big sums for average players they've made seem exceptional.

 

Data can be wrong when applied to real world. Look at us with Hernandez for instance, and Soumare etc. 

They've made a some great signings, replacing those they've sold for big.

But inevitably a few will demand more money and others not settle as expected and things start to fall off. 

Brighton are better with data than we ever were. Tony Bloom made his fortune with football data, it runs right through the core of their operations. It took us over a year to replace our head of analytics and then we've seemingly downgraded the role anyway.