Israeli and Palestinian conflict

[StanSP]

17 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

False equivalence again.  Israel is attempting to destroy a terrorist organization on its borders which launched a horrific attack and has the stated objective of its destruction.  If you cannot see that is different from the terrorist attack then I don't know what to say to you to be honest.

But kills hundreds of civilians, potentially intentionally, in doing so? 

 

I'm not even on any side here by the way. I just don't see how it's false equivalence when both sides have committed heinous war crimes and genocides in the past fortnight. Hamas perhaps initiated this latest chapter in the great big book of Middle East War, but let's not act like there aren't several previous chapters where Israel have been the instigators in the past. 

 

That's not to say it was an excuse for Hamas to do what they did (there is none), but several thousand innocent Palestinian lives have been lost over the past decades and barely anyone said anything back then. 

[StanSP]

3 minutes ago, MrSpaM said:

Pretty damning evidence from Israel this morning that the hospital strike was a Hamas rocket that failed

Any links?

[MrSpaM]

1 minute ago, StanSP said:

Any links?

The representative from Israel is talking live on BBC news right now

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589

 

You can rewind it if you want to hear it

[st albans fox]

stepped away from here end last week as much for for my mental health as anything else

 

had tried to be as impartial as I could but people generally have fairly entrenched views on the margins and those across the middle will swing back and forth with their thoughts as each horrific event unfolds 

 

there is so much disinformation (from both sides but one rather more than the other ) that on reflection, having an on line real time forum  discussion is probably not a great idea.  
 

I would just make the point that the bbc made a huge deal last week about not describing Hamas as terrorists. Anyone watching their news program yesterday evening or reading their on line output would have not have been in any doubt that the strike on the hospital was down to Israel.   There was no real effort to question what might have happened.  How 500 could have been declared dead in the dark within an hour of the incident ???   I appreciate that they have to walk a fine line but until regev was interviewed a couple of hours later, there wasn’t any thought that this may not have been an Israeli missile.  
 

I’ll probably drop in again in a few days 

Edited 18 October 2023 by st albans fox

[Jon the Hat]

2 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

stepped away from here end last week as much for for my mental health as anything else

 

had tried to be as impartial as I could but people generally have fairly entrenched views on the margins and those across the middle will swing back and forth with their thoughts as each horrific event unfolds 

 

there is so much disinformation (from both sides but one rather more than the other ) that on reflection, having an on line real time forum  discussion is probably not a great idea.  
 

I would just make the point that the bbc made a huge deal last week about not describing Hamas as terrorists. Anyone watching their news program yesterday evening or reading their on line output would have not have been in any doubt that the strike on the hospital was down to Israel.   There was no real effort to question what might have happened.  How 500 could, have been declared dead in the dark within an hour of the incident ???   I appreciate that they have to walk a fine line but until regev was interviewed a couple of hours later, there wasn’t any thought that this may not have been an Israeli missile.  
 

I’ll probably drop in again in a few days 

They BBC seem very ready to believe the worst of Israel.  It is disappointing.

[breadandcheese]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

This is spoken as if only one side of this conflict engages in such media manipulation. That is not true.

I didn't say it didn't but this hospital blast with the horrific loss of life is a conflict defining moment that can set off a whole host of nasty repercussions.

 

Journalists should be professionally held to account.

[Jon the Hat]

11 minutes ago, MrSpaM said:

Pretty damning evidence from Israel this morning that the hospital strike was a Hamas rocket that failed

The IDF has released intercepted conversations, claiming to be from Hamas operatives acknowledging the strike on the al-Ahli Arab Hospital had been caused by a misfire from Palestinian militants.

As part of a package of information released by Israel to deny its responsibility for the attack, the IDF posted a conversation between two Hamas operatives.

“It’s from us?” asks a first operative. “It looks like it. They are saying that the shrapnel from the missile is local shrapnel and not like Israeli shrapnel,” says the second operative.

The two operatives discuss how the rocket was fired by militants from Palestinian Islamic Jihad from a cemetery behind the hospital.

 

From the Times.

[Torquay Gunner]

3 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

stepped away from here end last week as much for for my mental health as anything else

 

had tried to be as impartial as I could but people generally have fairly entrenched views on the margins and those across the middle will swing back and forth with their thoughts as each horrific event unfolds 

 

there is so much disinformation (from both sides but one rather more than the other ) that on reflection, having an on line real time forum  discussion is probably not a great idea.  
 

I would just make the point that the bbc made a huge deal last week about not describing Hamas as terrorists. Anyone watching their news program yesterday evening or reading their on line output would have not have been in any doubt that the strike on the hospital was down to Israel.   There was no real effort to question what might have happened.  How 500 could, have been declared dead in the dark within an hour of the incident ???   I appreciate that they have to walk a fine line but until regev was interviewed a couple of hours later, there wasn’t any thought that this may not have been an Israeli missile.  
 

I’ll probably drop in again in a few days 

The coverage is getting more and more difficult to watch every day and to say it's dispiriting is an understatement.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, breadandcheese said:

I didn't say it didn't but this hospital blast with the horrific loss of life is a conflict defining moment that can set off a whole host of nasty repercussions.

 

Journalists should be professionally held to account.

Certainly they should, but I don't believe this particular incident to be a massively standout episode of journalistic malpractice, even though the event it depicts is terrible.

 

I'm not big on the implications being made here that the Beeb in particular have chosen a side. They have not.

[Daggers]

[leicsmac]

And again, mediating stuff like this is what the UN was created to do. It's absurd that by and large they're having to sit on their hands because... reasons, apparently.

 

What's the point?

[breadandcheese]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Certainly they should, but I don't believe this particular incident to be a massively standout episode of journalistic malpractice, even though the event it depicts is terrible.

 

I'm not big on the implications being made here that the Beeb in particular have chosen a side. They have not.

I'm not saying they chose a side. But they fell below their journalistic standards effectively reporting fake news.

 

This fake news has helped contribute to a febrile atmosphere that in last few hours has led to riots at Israeli and American consulates in the Middle East, a travel warning for Israelis to immediately leave Turkey due to security warnings, rioting against Abbas in West Bank, cancelled visits between Biden and king of Jordan and Abbas.

[StanSP]

17 minutes ago, MrSpaM said:

The representative from Israel is talking live on BBC news right now

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589

 

You can rewind it if you want to hear it

I'm still sceptical given its a rep from Israel. 

[bmt]

30 minutes ago, MrSpaM said:

Pretty damning evidence from Israel this morning that the hospital strike was a Hamas rocket that failed

I'm not convinced either way but I I we have different standards of 'pretty damning'. No actual evidence presented

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

I'm not saying they chose a side. But they fell below their journalistic standards effectively reporting fake news.

 

This fake news has helped contribute to a febrile atmosphere that in last few hours has led to riots at Israeli and American consulates in the Middle East, a travel warning for Israelis to immediately leave Turkey due to security warnings, rioting against Abbas in West Bank, cancelled visits between Biden and king of Jordan and Abbas.

We don't know that for sure yet. When and if we do, we should judge then IMO.

 

I do agree though that misinformation and people buying into it is a massive problem here that costs time and likely lives.

[breadandcheese]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

We don't know that for sure yet. When and if we do, we should judge then IMO.

 

I do agree though that misinformation and people buying into it is a massive problem here that costs time and likely lives.

But we do. We know it is contested. That's a fact. Yet this was not how the BBC presented (or other medis outlets, not just BBC). One BBC journalist in a report said he didn't see what else it could possibly be other than an Israeli airstrike. The impression to the listener/viewer is obvious.

[bmt]

1 minute ago, breadandcheese said:

But we do. We know it is contested. That's a fact. Yet this was not how the BBC presented (or other medis outlets, not just BBC). One BBC journalist in a report said he didn't see what else it could possibly be other than an Israeli airstrike. The impression to the listener/viewer is obvious.

Was it contested at the time of reporting? Israeli media sources all seem to have accepted it was an Israeli weapon at the time (I've seen a few later revisions from Israeli journalists on twitter)

[bmt]

Just now, bmt said:

Was it contested at the time of reporting? Israeli media sources all seem to have accepted it was an Israeli weapon at the time (I've seen a few later revisions from Israeli journalists on twitter)

Also the BBC reported people attending a rally in London "in support of Hamas" the other day for those who went to the solidarity rally.

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

But we do. We know it is contested. That's a fact. Yet this was not how the BBC presented (or other medis outlets, not just BBC). One BBC journalist in a report said he didn't see what else it could possibly be other than an Israeli airstrike. The impression to the listener/viewer is obvious.

And that it is contested is being reported day and night by the Beeb, is it not? One report by one journalist does not a wholesale stance make.

[breadandcheese]

3 minutes ago, bmt said:

Was it contested at the time of reporting? Israeli media sources all seem to have accepted it was an Israeli weapon at the time (I've seen a few later revisions from Israeli journalists on twitter)

It was contested quite quickly but Israeli response at the time was we are investigating but we had no planes in the area at that time.

[breadandcheese]

Just now, leicsmac said:

And that it is contested is being reported day and night by the Beeb, is it not? One report by one journalist does not a wholesale stance make.

You know it depends how it is reported. There can be little doubt how it was received by anyone watching/ listening. 

[Lionator]

43 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

They BBC seem very ready to believe the worst of Israel.  It is disappointing.

They're not. The BBC are trying to be neutral which in this context is absolutely impossible because one side will accuse you of one thing and the other will accuse you of another. You cannot be neutral, not because you have to pick a side, but because there is no middle ground in this due to the many contexts which surround it.

[RowlattsFox]

With all the tragedy that's happened since, the Israeli hostages are mainly forgot about. Can't see a positive ending for them one way or another. Would releasing them de-escalate the situation in the short term? 

 

What I don't understand is how little Hamas or other militant groups care about their citizens, potentially firing rockets next door to a hospital for ****s sake. 

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

You know it depends how it is reported. There can be little doubt how it was received by anyone watching/ listening. 

I think that's entirely subjective tbh.

 

As @Lionator points out above, the Beeb are doing the very best they can to stay impartial in a highly charged and difficult environment where there are a great many contexts IMO.

[st albans fox]

This was in the aftermath -  bbc world - it matters  - oh yeah - ‘according to Palestinian officials’.  I’m sure everyone reads that ….