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MPH

Israeli and Palestinian conflict

By MPH, in General Chat

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

German peacekeepers in Israel and Turkish in Gaza.

 

This is how it's going to go until you learn to play nicely.

I'll be honest, I'd take any measure that would involve the big players actually having enough of a conscience to vote for the UN to go in and at least try to manage the situation.

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Trav Le Bleu

Trav Le Bleu

Posted
Posted

Leaving Hamas' atrocities out of the equation,

as a displaced, oppressed people for so many years (literally millennia) you would think that over the years Israel would have treated the Palestinians more fairly.

 

But no, once again, as history has showed time and again, once the boot is on the other foot, the kicking just changes direction. 

 

:(

 

Two wrongs do not make a right and revenge just creates avengers.

 

 

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Leaving Hamas' atrocities out of the equation,

as a displaced, oppressed people for so many years (literally millennia) you would think that over the years Israel would have treated the Palestinians more fairly.

 

But no, once again, as history has showed time and again, once the boot is on the other foot, the kicking just changes direction. 

 

:(

 

Two wrongs do not make a right and revenge just creates avengers.

 

 

Yeah.

 

The cycle of violence and vengeance is very much a thing.

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Freeman's Wharfer

Freeman's Wharfer

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, LFox99 said:

This is a bit of hindsight but currently it's impossible to tell who's actually responsible. 

There's been verified reports of civilians in Gaza having their car keys taken away by members of the Hamas, being told to stay put and not evacuate, satellite images showing roadblocks set up by Hamas. There's no doubt what their goal here is: to cause as many civilian casualties (no matter if it's their own) for propaganda purposes.

Today there's been another alleged strike on an evacuation route but the footage available of it makes it look a lot less like an Israeli airstrike and much more like some improvised device detonated in a car on the street.

Or maybe they just believe that if those lands are vacated they will be taken by Israel and never get them back?

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Jattdogg

Jattdogg

Posted
Posted

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/features/2023/10/15/from-friend-to-enemy-palestinians-in-israel-suspended-from-jobs-over-war

 

Not sure that's a good look so long as nobody was gloryfying hamas or the attack etc. It's shameful to treat people this way. 

 

Of course,  i am basing my opinion on if the article is factually correct but i'm also not surprised.

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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, Jattdogg said:

https://www.cp24.com/mobile/world/desantis-says-us-shouldn-t-take-in-palestinian-refugees-from-gaza-because-they-re-all-antisemitic-1.6602451

 

...goodness me, this guy wants to lead them as well. Palestinian people stand no chance if this is how people feel about them.

It would be a bold / risky move security wise to open the door to Palestinian refugees while support Israel in attacking Gaza.

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Naat

Naat

Posted
Posted

If human beings want to follow, they should follow such men. 

The moments when Vincenzo Montella played football with children in the earthquake zone became a hot topic again: "one of us"

 

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Daggers

Daggers

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Putin rides in bare-chested on a white horse with an olive branch between his teeth, a dove in one hand and a broken rifle in the other.

If a bear isn’t being punched in the tits then I’m out.

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ClaphamFox

ClaphamFox

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, LFox99 said:

Have you seen some of the rallies all over Europe in the last couple of days? Those weren't "we're unhappy with the foreign policy of Israel" protests, those were full-on vitriolic "death to all jews" rallies. 

Groups in Berlin went through neighbourhoods and marked the houses and businesses of jewish people with stars of david, the same way the nazis did before WW2. Anyone who is unable to see the need for a jewish state needs to give their head a wobble.

You can criticise Israel's settlement policy, you can criticise Netanyahu for being a corrupt, right wing ****, but to equate Hamas to Israel is out of order. One is a terrorist organisation mindlessly slaughtering, raping, torturing, kidnapping civilians purely for being of a certain religion while the other side tries to protect the very same people from having those things happen to them. 

Anti-Semitic attacks in the UK have quadrupled since Hamas committed genocide in Israel. There's no doubt that the UK is currently not a safe place for Jewish people. And to be frank, if I were Jewish and were considering moving to the UK, and I read this thread as a guide to public opinion in this country, I'd be deeply apprehensive. 

 

When trying to wrap one's head about violent and complex foreign conflicts, it is always worth trying to put yourself into the position of people on both sides. It is worth remembering, for example, that Israel was created immediately in the wake of, and in direct response to, the murder of at least six million Jewish people in the Holocaust. It is also worth bearing in mind that Israel is currently surrounded by countries that would commit another holocaust if they were able to. Hamas and Hezobollah are both open about the fact that they would murder everybody in Israel if they could get away with it, and their views aren't unusual or considered particularly extreme in the Arab world. Surely it is not too much of a stretch to understand why Israel has a robust approach to self-defence, especially in the immediate aftermath of the worst mass murder of Jewish people since World War II.

 

On the other hand, you can put yourself in the position of somebody from Palestine - the deep sense of historic grievance over the perception of stolen land, the brutal occupation, the blockade of Gaza, the reckless violence of Israeli forces in the West Bank (which very likely can be classed as war crimes), etc. The list of very legitimate grievances goes on.

 

Since the attack by Hamas, many people have expressed concern about a disproportionate response from Israel. And I agree with them - I don't want ordinary Palestinian people to be killed or have their homes destroyed either. But it does raise the question of what exactly is a 'proportionate' response to a terrorist group committing a pogrom on Israeli soil (if such a thing happened in the UK, I don't think I'd be calling on our government to show restraint). I think it would be a good thing for humanity if Hamas were wiped from the face of the earth, but unfortunately there is no way of accomplishing that without a massive loss of life for ordinary Palestinians. So like most people I'm deeply apprehensive about Israel's invasion of Gaza and what will follow.

 

This is probably just an elaborate way of saying that this is a very complex situation, with very legitimate grievances on both sides. It surprises me and depresses me when people adopt massively oversimplified positions on it - as if they've got a finite amount of empathy, and they've decided to allocate all of it to one side and none to the other. The day after Hamas killed all those people in Israel, a facebook friend of mine changed his background pic to the Palestine flag. I'd have absolutely no problem with that in normal circumstances, but to do that the day after the massacre of Israeli people - including babies - shows a level of callous disregard for human suffering that I can only wonder at. And yet it seems to have been a widely-shared emotional response in the UK.

 

 

Edited by ClaphamFox
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leicsmac

leicsmac

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14 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

Anti-Semitic attacks in the UK have quadrupled since Hamas committed genocide in Israel. There's no doubt that the UK is currently not a safe place for Jewish people. And to be frank, if I were Jewish and were considering moving to the UK, and I read this thread as a guide to public opinion in this country, I'd be deeply apprehensive. 

 

When trying to wrap one's head about violent and complex foreign conflicts, it is always worth trying to put yourself into the position of people on both sides. It is worth remembering, for example, that Israel was created immediately in the wake of, and in direct response to, the murder of at least six million Jewish people in the Holocaust. It is also worth bearing in mind that Israel is currently surrounded by countries that would do exactly the same again if they were able to. Hamas and Hezobollah are both open about the fact that they would murder everybody in Israel if they could get away with it, and their views aren't unusual or considered particularly extreme in the Arab world. Surely it is not too much of a stretch to understand why Israel has a robust approach to self-defence, especially in the immediate aftermath of the worst mass murder of Jewish people since World War II.

 

On the other hand, you can put yourself in the position of somebody from Palestine - the deep sense of historic grievance over the perception of stolen land, the brutal occupation, the blockade of Gaza, the reckless violence of Israeli forces in the West Bank (which very likely can be classed as war crimes), etc. The list of very legitimate grievances goes on.

 

Since the attack by Hamas, many people have expressed concern about a disproportionate response from Israel. And I agree with them - I don't want ordinary Palestinian people to be killed or have their homes destroyed either. But it does raise the question of what exactly is a 'proportionate' response to a terrorist group committing a pogrom on Israeli soil (if such a thing happened in the UK, I don't think I'd be calling on our government to show restraint). I think it would be a good thing for humanity if Hamas were wiped from the face of the earth, but unfortunately there is no way of accomplishing that without a massive loss of life for ordinary Palestinians. So like most people I'm deeply apprehensive about Israel's invasion of Gaza and what will follow.

 

This is probably just an elaborate way of saying that this is a very complex situation, with very legitimate grievances on both sides. It surprises me and depresses me when people adopt massively oversimplified positions on it - as if they've got a finite amount of empathy, and they've decided to allocate all of it to one side and none to the other. The day after Hamas killed all those people in Israel, a facebook friend of mine changed his background pic to the Palestine flag. I'd have absolutely no problem with that in normal circumstances, but to do that the day after the massacre of Israeli people - including babies - shows a level of callous disregard for human suffering that I can only wonder at. And yet it seems to have been a widely-shared emotional response in the UK.

 

 

Astute.

 

The only think I'll add to this is an observation that IMO a lot of people in the UK are making a noise regarding the plight of Gaza/Palestinians because both the government and the majority of the print media appear to have picked their side regarding this one and, as you very rightly point out, it's a complicated situation with a lot of grievances on both sides and so picking that side at an establishment level doesn't appear fair.

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The Fox Covert

The Fox Covert

Posted
Posted

Intelligent and balanced post from Clapham Fox.

Hamas is an extremely dangerous organisation, funded by Russia and probably by other terrorist countries, and is a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK. Its stated objective is the elimination of the Israeli state. 

The Gaza strip is mostly part of the historic area of Palestine under the UN partition plan which created the Israeli state after the Second World War. For the last fifteen years the government of Gaza has to all intents and purposes been Hamas, and it is not recognised by most countries in the world. No country should ever have to tolerate a terrorist state on its borders.

I think the majority of Palestinians within Gaza are not particularly happy to be governed by Hamas, any more than Russians really want to be governed by Putin and the corrupt clique of siloviki terrorists around him.

Israel will be supported by the majority of democratic countries but it should expressly state that its objectives are limited to making its borders safe and protecting its citizens. And that it has no interest in annexing Gaza and deporting the existing population to make space for Israeli people to live, and that it would be happy to live with a democratic state in Gaza.

The crisis has been building up for at least the last fifteen years and Israel has no choice now but to eliminate the threat.

But when Hamas is gone, if Israel has sent its army into Gaza it should withdraw and allow the installation of a protectorate in Gaza, under the supervision of the UN. Palestine has a large ethnic diaspora in many Western countries and the prospects for the establishment of a peaceful and democratic government, which is happy to live with its neighbours Israel and Egypt, are much greater than they ever were in the failed state of Afghanistan.

Israel's action is also creating a refugee crisis. Israel, unlike Ukraine, is a wealthy First World country and it has the resources to provide financial assistance to countries which accept refugees from Gaza. It should also allow its security services to work with countries accepting refugees to help identify individuals closely associated with Hamas so that they aren't allowed to take their poison into a third country.

 

 

 

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MPH

MPH

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Posted
3 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Disgraceful. 

 

 

I'm thinking Saddam Hussein's buddy denying  Americans are in Bagdad as the camera pans to tanks rolling by in the background.. Or Putin with one of his denials...

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MPH

MPH

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38 minutes ago, String fellow said:

Let's not forget about the hostages being held by Hamas, probably underground and probably fearing that they'll soon be murdered, and in the most barbaric way imaginable.

 

 

Latest calculations by Israel put the number of hostages at 199

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westernpark

westernpark

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, MPH said:

Interesting development. I suppose they had to pick a side once the United States pinned their colours to the mast.

 

 

Not sure if this statement Carries any weight though?

 

 

According to the guardian app, this decision has been made to gain favour from Islamic countries, in the face of their treatment of Uyghur Muslims.

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