Foxes Trust Statement on Referral of Leicester City FC for Alleged Breaches of Profitability and Sustainability Rules.

[Foxes_Trust]

 

Foxes Trust Statement on Referral of Leicester City FC for Alleged Breaches of Profitability and Sustainability Rules – Foxes Trust

[KFS]

Can you guys help us get some clarity on who is doing what at the club, please? 
 

For most FTSE organisations, there are regulations on naming officers, their roles, remuneration etc. I know LCFC are not legally obliged to disclose, but what are they hiding? 
 

What does Jon Rudkin actually do and how much is he paid to do it? Everyone on this forum pay hard earned money into our football club, whether it be memberships, merchandise etc. Where is it going and who is controlling it? 
 

Why has it come to this?

 

These are questions I would like to see asked. I don’t think they would damage your relationship with the club either. They’re just questions. 

[Chocolate Teapot]

1 minute ago, KFS said:

Can you guys help us get some clarity on who is doing what at the club, please? 
 

For most FTSE organisations, there are regulations on naming officers, their roles, remuneration etc. I know LCFC are not legally obliged to disclose, but what are they hiding? 
 

What does Jon Rudkin actually do and how much is he paid to do it? Everyone on this forum pay hard earned money into our football club, whether it be memberships, merchandise etc. Where is it going and who is controlling it? 
 

Why has it come to this?

 

These are questions I would like to see asked. I don’t think they would damage your relationship with the club either. They’re just questions. 

You can always join like a few of us have 

[inckley fox]

Regarding the line about how vital it is for us to go up: If we're to have a 10 point fine and face the need to sell all of our assets, I do wonder which would be the best division for us to rebuild in. If we can become an equitable club at EFL level, rather than divebombing out of the EPL and kicking it all down the line for a year, is there an argument that this might provide a more solid foundation in the long-term, and a better experience for the fans? Or is the situation so desperate that we simply need those EPL dollars? And is there any risk of an EPL points deduction which hangs over us for multiple years (in other words, meaning we could go up a decade later and still be effectively relegated without kicking a ball)? Or is that just some weird unfounded fear of mine?

[Foxes_Trust]

7 minutes ago, KFS said:

Can you guys help us get some clarity on who is doing what at the club, please? 
 

For most FTSE organisations, there are regulations on naming officers, their roles, remuneration etc. I know LCFC are not legally obliged to disclose, but what are they hiding? 
 

What does Jon Rudkin actually do and how much is he paid to do it? Everyone on this forum pay hard earned money into our football club, whether it be memberships, merchandise etc. Where is it going and who is controlling it? 
 

Why has it come to this?

 

These are questions I would like to see asked. I don’t think they would damage your relationship with the club either. They’re just questions. 

The Directors and Senior Management team (who are responsible for the overview of running the club) are detailed on the LCFC website Senior Management | Leicester City (lcfc.com)

 

The club will not divulge individual salaries, not aware of any other football club that does.

[KFS]

15 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

You can always join like a few of us have 

Thanks mate, did just now. Had it open this morning but had to go out. 

 

6 minutes ago, Foxes_Trust said:

The Directors and Senior Management team (who are responsible for the overview of running the club) are detailed on the LCFC website Senior Management | Leicester City (lcfc.com)

 

The club will not divulge individual salaries, not aware of any other football club that does.

I know, hence commentary around not being legally obliged. But a question is free, it doesn’t need to be answered, but it could make them think. 
 

This guy has been scott free for years. That needs to change.

[PhillippaT]

30 minutes ago, KFS said:

Thanks mate, did just now. Had it open this morning but had to go out. 

 

I know, hence commentary around not being legally obliged. But a question is free, it doesn’t need to be answered, but it could make them think. 
 

This guy has been scott free for years. That needs to change.

scott free or scott expensive?  

[KFS]

3 minutes ago, PhillippaT said:

scott free or scott expensive?  

Scot-cheap given that tracksuit he wears about the place 

[Gamble92]

1 hour ago, Foxes_Trust said:

 

Foxes Trust Statement on Referral of Leicester City FC for Alleged Breaches of Profitability and Sustainability Rules – Foxes Trust

Can I just ask why when you received absolutely no response after relegation that you think you can get a response about the accounts or share them with us anyway? 

[Foxes_Trust]

11 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

Can I just ask why when you received absolutely no response after relegation that you think you can get a response about the accounts or share them with us anyway? 

We have met with the club for several years to discuss the annual accounts and it was confirmed today that a meeting will take place next week.

 

The club will publish their accounts and accompany it with a public statement as usual, however the basis of our annual accounts meeting is confidential, so the likelihood of us being able to say anything beyond what has been made public is minimal, we must tread very carefully given the current legal situation, and while we can question & challenge privately, no fans in their thirst for knowledge should want to adversely affect the clubs legal case

[Gamble92]

4 minutes ago, Foxes_Trust said:

We have met with the club for several years to discuss the annual accounts and it was confirmed today that a meeting will take place next week.

 

The club will publish their accounts and accompany it with a public statement as usual, however the basis of our annual accounts meeting is confidential, so the likelihood of us being able to say anything beyond what has been made public is minimal, we must tread very carefully given the current legal situation, and while we can question & challenge privately, no fans in their thirst for knowledge should want to adversely affect the clubs legal case

Can you give us a hint after you've found out?

 

Like maybe tell me in how many bottles of vodka I'll need to order? 

[davieG]

1 hour ago, Foxes_Trust said:

We have met with the club for several years to discuss the annual accounts and it was confirmed today that a meeting will take place next week.

 

The club will publish their accounts and accompany it with a public statement as usual, however the basis of our annual accounts meeting is confidential, so the likelihood of us being able to say anything beyond what has been made public is minimal, we must tread very carefully given the current legal situation, and while we can question & challenge privately, no fans in their thirst for knowledge should want to adversely affect the clubs legal case

If they’re so confidential what is the point of just a few FTrust members seeing them or can you pass them on to all the members.

 

i really don’t see the point. If there was something amiss are you saying you can’t say or do anything about them?

[filthyfox]

Has the Foxes Trust requested Rudkin's removal?   If not, why not?

[foxinsocks]

It's not really clear what the fixes trust views are.  A better approach would be to call on the club to recognize failings and put in place measures to avoid similar in the future.

Standing, singoing, ticketing, store pricing, concorse facilities,  engagement... these are all organisational issues for the club to get right.... and fir ft to advance solutions.

I would now add fiscal management and effectiveness of spending. 

[Terraloon]

I personally think the clamour for a Regulator is strange.

 

Let’s be clear the PSR regulations will  not be within the remit of a  Regulator they simply  won’t have input into enforcement of the EFL, PL, National League rule book or disciplinary matters.

 

Their remit will be very narrow and it will come at a financial cost(based on todays costs over £10 million pa , and quite possibly some of the lower PL clubs , those who rely for over 85% of their income from broadcast will become increasingly less competitive on the field bearing in mind the suggestion is that the new PSR regulations will probably restrict wage costs to 70%  of total income and likely squad costs ( wages+amortisation + agents fees) to a number between 70-85%. For reference over half of Championship Clubs are already spending over 100% of income on wages some as high as 128%

Ok there might be a bit extra for clubs down the pyramid but the gap between the PL and Championship will still be massive and almost certainly clubs in say EFL 2  already pay some of their players circa £10k a week each  that’s over half a million a year on one player from a business that generates probably no more that £7 million a year.

As you can guess that I am far from convinced that the IR is going to solve the problems that there are in football and for me the clamour for VAR will be repeated and them some once a regulator has any input.

 

National League Sth  &Nth clubs almost certainly won’t have the structure in place that will be required, many clubs below the EFL rely very heavily on benefactors those  clubs will simply not be able to live the dream. In effect non league football below the NL , Woman’s football and possibly academy football quite possibly will become second class.

 

Has regulation worked in any industry that a government appointed regulator. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 24 March by Terraloon

[Terraloon]

16 minutes ago, foxinsocks said:

It's not really clear what the fixes trust views are.  A better approach would be to call on the club to recognize failings and put in place measures to avoid similar in the future.

Standing, singoing, ticketing, store pricing, concorse facilities,  engagement... these are all organisational issues for the club to get right.... and fir ft to advance solutions.

I would now add fiscal management and effectiveness of spending. 

Was there a Freudian slip in there 

[foxinsocks]

22 minutes ago, Terraloon said:

Was there a Freudian slip in there 

It's been on my mind...

[foxinsocks]

1 hour ago, Terraloon said:

I personally think the clamour for a Regulator is strange.

 

Let’s be clear the PSR regulations will  not be within the remit of a  Regulator they simply  won’t have input into enforcement of the EFL, PL, National League rule book or disciplinary matters.

 

Their remit will be very narrow and it will come at a financial cost(based on todays costs over £10 million pa , and quite possibly some of the lower PL clubs , those who rely for over 85% of their income from broadcast will become increasingly less competitive on the field bearing in mind the suggestion is that the new PSR regulations will probably restrict wage costs to 70%  of total income and likely squad costs ( wages+amortisation + agents fees) to a number between 70-85%. For reference over half of Championship Clubs are already spending over 100% of income on wages some as high as 128%

Ok there might be a bit extra for clubs down the pyramid but the gap between the PL and Championship will still be massive and almost certainly clubs in say EFL 2  already pay some of their players circa £10k a week each  that’s over half a million a year on one player from a business that generates probably no more that £7 million a year.

As you can guess that I am far from convinced that the IR is going to solve the problems that there are in football and for me the clamour for VAR will be repeated and them some once a regulator has any input.

 

National League Sth  &Nth clubs almost certainly won’t have the structure in place that will be required, many clubs below the EFL rely very heavily on benefactors those  clubs will simply not be able to live the dream. In effect non league football below the NL , Woman’s football and possibly academy football quite possibly will become second class.

 

Has regulation worked in any industry that a government appointed regulator. 

 

 

 

 

Look at rugby union... paying wages that cannot be afforded (given the low quality of sponsors in england).  Lower league clubs are the same.  20 years ago I had a lunch with a guy from hsbc who managed their football accounts and he said the wage bills were crazy then.  

So local clubs become the projects of "shit or bust merchants "... but when the gamble fails the owners walk leaving the fans with a club being wound up by HMRC.

My solution is to demand a bond from owners so that they forfeit money if their club goes into administration... this would mean they can't walk away Scott free and need to be more responsible.   ( I would also prevent previous owners from buying clubs out of administration.)

 

I tell you now that if a regulator agitated for more pl money to be given to efl clubs then it will just disappear in to the pockets of agents and players... it won't make the clubs more secure. 

Edited 24 March by foxinsocks

[Terraloon]

1 hour ago, foxinsocks said:

Look at rugby union... paying wages that cannot be afforded (given the low quality of sponsors in england).  Lower league clubs are the same.  20 years ago I had a lunch with a guy from hsbc who managed their football accounts and he said the wage bills were crazy then.  

So local clubs become the projects of "shit or bust merchants "... but when the gamble fails the owners walk leaving the fans with a club being wound up by HMRC.

My solution is to demand a bond from owners so that they forfeit money if their club goes into administration... this would mean they can't walk away Scott free and need to be more responsible.   ( I would also prevent previous owners from buying clubs out of administration.)

 

I tell you now that if a regulator agitated for more pl money to be given to efl clubs then it will just disappear in to the pockets of agents and players... it won't make the clubs more secure. 

This is exactly right.

 

My background is in compliance having spent time in debt management and a short period in football administration.

 

The rules as they are aren’t a million miles away from being ok but what football is in grave danger of over complication and to a degree FFP already does that.

 

A lot is made of clubs going into administration there aren’t that many nowadays and every club that goes into an Insolvency event is a disaster for ever club that suffers oblivion.

 

The trouble with getting an owner, a majority shareholder or director putting up a bond is quite simply as you go down through the pyramid you will get less and less who will put their hands up . What would you do if an owner dies ? Or that bond is used and no other will put their hand up to take the club over ?

The EFL, PL, and  indeed the NL   already have mechanisms in place to monitor creditors. Debt to HMRC is big red flag as is a club not filing returns and information already  required in regulations. 
 

If a directors  knew that putting a club into administration meant a guaranteed relegation that would send a far stronger message out in terms of deterrent rather than just  a points deduction which often means clubs maintain thie place in the league hierarchy . I genuinely believe far earlier clubs would place the brakes on.

 

 

 

[foxinsocks]

41 minutes ago, Terraloon said:

This is exactly right.

 

My background is in compliance having spent time in debt management and a short period in football administration.

 

The rules as they are aren’t a million miles away from being ok but what football is in grave danger of over complication and to a degree FFP already does that.

 

A lot is made of clubs going into administration there aren’t that many nowadays and every club that goes into an Insolvency event is a disaster for ever club that suffers oblivion.

 

The trouble with getting an owner, a majority shareholder or director putting up a bond is quite simply as you go down through the pyramid you will get less and less who will put their hands up . What would you do if an owner dies ? Or that bond is used and no other will put their hand up to take the club over ?

The EFL, PL, and  indeed the NL   already have mechanisms in place to monitor creditors. Debt to HMRC is big red flag as is a club not filing returns and information already  required in regulations. 
 

If a directors  knew that putting a club into administration meant a guaranteed relegation that would send a far stronger message out in terms of deterrent rather than just  a points deduction which often means clubs maintain thie place in the league hierarchy . I genuinely believe far earlier clubs would place the brakes on.

 

 

 

a bond of say £1m in div2, 2mil in dev 1.5 mil in championship and 10-mill in pl - but these are personal securities put up by the shareholders - required by the leagues - and any new shareholders inheriting shares mush also put up the bond or sell.  The bond wouldn't bother wealthy owners - but the clubs going in to admin are largely lower league  (look at derby situation, blackb, previous problems at portsmouth etc).

[Col city fan]

12 hours ago, Foxes_Trust said:

We have met with the club for several years to discuss the annual accounts and it was confirmed today that a meeting will take place next week.

 

The club will publish their accounts and accompany it with a public statement as usual, however the basis of our annual accounts meeting is confidential, so the likelihood of us being able to say anything beyond what has been made public is minimal, we must tread very carefully given the current legal situation, and while we can question & challenge privately, no fans in their thirst for knowledge should want to adversely affect the clubs legal case

From what I read, it seems that the Foxes Trust and the club are just ‘in bed together’.

It’s all ‘we can’t divulge this or discuss that’ because of ‘not wanting to adversely affect’.

Thats fine. But that comes across therefore as just a boys club. A club where you can meet with the club and shake each other’s hands.

If you don’t have any members who are a little ‘militant’ (for want of a better term), you’ll not evoke any change or even thoughts about any change.

Run the Trust so it’s worthwhile. Make points. Thrown the balls in the air and see what comes down. The club looks like it needs a metaphorical kick up the behind. Try to do it.

[SemperEadem]

1 minute ago, Col city fan said:

From what I read, it seems that the Foxes Trust and the club are just ‘in bed together’.

It’s all ‘we can’t divulge this or discuss that’ because of ‘not wanting to adversely affect’.

Thats fine. But that comes across therefore as just a boys club. A club where you can meet with the club and shake each other’s hands.

If you don’t have any members who are a little ‘militant’ (for want of a better term), you’ll not evoke any change or even thoughts about any change.

Run the Trust so it’s worthwhile. Make points. Thrown the balls in the air and see what comes down. The club looks like it needs a metaphorical kick up the behind. Try to do it.

You could join the trust and assist with doing that?

[Sol thewall Bamba]

5 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

From what I read, it seems that the Foxes Trust and the club are just ‘in bed together’.

It’s all ‘we can’t divulge this or discuss that’ because of ‘not wanting to adversely affect’.

Thats fine. But that comes across therefore as just a boys club. A club where you can meet with the club and shake each other’s hands.

If you don’t have any members who are a little ‘militant’ (for want of a better term), you’ll not evoke any change or even thoughts about any change.

Run the Trust so it’s worthwhile. Make points. Thrown the balls in the air and see what comes down. The club looks like it needs a metaphorical kick up the behind. Try to do it.

 

3 minutes ago, SemperEadem said:

You could join the trust and assist with doing that?

Yeah, so easy to sit on Foxestalk and tell other people how it should be done.

 

Get active.

[CosbehFox]

9 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

From what I read, it seems that the Foxes Trust and the club are just ‘in bed together’.

It’s all ‘we can’t divulge this or discuss that’ because of ‘not wanting to adversely affect’.

Thats fine. But that comes across therefore as just a boys club. A club where you can meet with the club and shake each other’s hands.

If you don’t have any members who are a little ‘militant’ (for want of a better term), you’ll not evoke any change or even thoughts about any change.

Run the Trust so it’s worthwhile. Make points. Thrown the balls in the air and see what comes down. The club looks like it needs a metaphorical kick up the behind. Try to do it.

As said elsewhere, a good number of us have decided to do this.
 

The trust can only be changed with active participation. 

[Col city fan]

15 minutes ago, SemperEadem said:

You could join the trust and assist with doing that?

Remind me how to again mate. I’ll join