Accounts 22/23

[Daggers]

Just now, KFS said:

What do you suggest?

The same thing I’ve been saying for two fvcking seasons. 

[5waller5]

1 hour ago, Finn Claw II said:

The Maccauire loan was to bring forward the fees for Maddison, Barnes and Castagne. 

That would be for cashflow though not to shift accounting year?

[Bazly]

You have to wonder how you can lose £80mn on the back of selling Fofana and Madders for over £100mn. There must be a money waste chute somewhere. 

According to the Guardian who do tend to be pretty accurate on football matters there could be a recruitment ban on the club this Summer with enforced sales of most valuable playing assets topped off by starting next season on negative points. This current team would get handed its arse week in week out in the EPL so whichever way, EPL or Championship, next season isn't one to look forward to. All to ensure the magic 6 retain their protected status.

[5waller5]

30 minutes ago, Mr Weller 2 said:

He was talking about potential owners not managers or other employees.

No he wasn't. He was replying to a post about Rudkin and Whelan.

[fox_up_north]

Kind of don't want us to go up now, really. No point. Let some other club get used as a punchbag. 

 

Yes, the owners have badly managed it but the rules are to prevent clubs like us doing well. Might as well call them the Know Your Place rules. 

 

If you take out us and Blackburn, only 5 clubs have won the league since 1992. In the 30 odd years prior to that it was about 9. 

 

The league is still "competitive" but by virtue of several clubs being bankrolled by billionaires, who get to stretch the rules for their mates. 

[StonyFox]

Apologies if I have this incorrect or it's already been posted, but based on the current rules and debts posted so far and looking at the 3 years of rolling accounts, are we looking at being in breach of the rules for the next three years, even in the scenario where we go up and stay up? (and the rules don't change)...

 

For 2022/23 accounts our total losses for the 3 years was 215m with an allowed loss of 105m (3 years in prem), so in breach of the rules

For 2023/24 accounts our total losses for the 3 years will be 183m, IF we break even this season which is highly unlikely, with an allowed loss of 87.5 (2 prem 1 efl), so in breach of the rules.

For 2024/25 accounts our total losses for the 3 years will be 90m, IF we break even this season and next (highly unlikely), with an allowed loss of 87.5 (2 prem 1 efl), so in breach of the rules.

 

So at best, we may not be in breach until we post our 2025/26 accounts at some point in 2027 and that is based on staying in the prem and not making any more losses?

 

So we can even accept the point deductions for the next few seasons and deal with it strategically making it more difficult to achieve on-field success or attract players, or we have a fire sale this summer and end up with a depleted squad and still probably have 2 seasons of point deductions?

 

Even if we didn't get relegated, surely we'd have still been in the sh*t for 2-3 seasons!?

[splinterdream]

Just now, fox_up_north said:

Kind of don't want us to go up now, really. No point. Let some other club get used as a punchbag. 

 

Yes, the owners have badly managed it but the rules are to prevent clubs like us doing well. Might as well call them the Know Your Place rules. 

 

If you take out us and Blackburn, only 5 clubs have won the league since 1992. In the 30 odd years prior to that it was about 9. 

 

The league is still "competitive" but by virtue of several clubs being bankrolled by billionaires, who get to stretch the rules for their mates. 

look at it this way, we support the team and we want them to win, thats all that matters. lets win the championship and give them a headache. I think our position in this mess is a mix of 'having a go against the odds' and 'absolute incompetancy at a business level of running a football club', but should it be the fans and players that suffer? Lets just enjoy the football, win games and see what happens.

[HarryDee8]

Didn't Top write off a proportion of our debt last year?

[fazzyfox]

Whilst giving out bonkers wages is the unforgivable cause we have to realise that on the player trading side of things this is real life not a PC / Console game.

 

We turned down a derisory bid from Newcastle for Madison and Vestergaard rejected a move to Fulham, an Italian club kept trying to move the goalposts to sign Praet, maybe a bid for Iverson who was still developing, other than that we would have been happy to move on fringe players and failures but bids for Perez, Amartey, Mendy, Choudhury, Soumare, Praet (low bid from Atalanta?), Ward last Summer / this winter etc (and the time it took to shift Slimani), were not forthcoming, not surprisingly when you look at the players potential wage demands to match what we pay and the fees wanted / needed in relation to the bidding clubs size / budget. Teams above us didn’t need them, teams beneath us couldn’t afford them, the teams we were competing with around 7th or 8th such as the likes of West Ham, maybe Everton a couple of years back, Villa and more recently Brighton had their own investment and scouting strategies leaving the foreign market, leagues with less money around as the only likely destinations.
 

I’m not saying not being able to sell fringe players for good fees was our biggest problem or a hugely significant hindrance to our model but before saying we “should have sold them and not let their contracts run down” define “let”, the dye was cast when we paid them too much, once you’ve done that you can’t find a buyer or force them out unless you pay off their contract early, you may have got 20 million for Soumare on Football Manager once but this is real life.

[fazzyfox]

6 minutes ago, HarryDee8 said:

Didn't Top write off a proportion of our debt last year?

He did and that’s how he truly claims the clubs future is secure, but the ffp rules focus on allowed losses , your expenditure against your income, writing off the debts may have reduced outgoing interest payments but other than that doesn’t help the rule breaking of being above the threshold over the rolling 3 year period.

[Heathrow fox]

43 minutes ago, Scotch said:

Does anyone know how much KP pay us for sponsorship/stadium naming rights and how it stacks up to teams around us? 

I believe it is or was no great shakes.

[Heathrow fox]

15 minutes ago, fazzyfox said:

Whilst giving out bonkers wages is the unforgivable cause we have to realise that on the player trading side of things this is real life not a PC / Console game.

 

We turned down a derisory bid from Newcastle for Madison and Vestergaard rejected a move to Fulham, an Italian club kept trying to move the goalposts to sign Praet, maybe a bid for Iverson who was still developing, other than that we would have been happy to move on fringe players and failures but bids for Perez, Amartey, Mendy, Choudhury, Soumare, Praet (low bid from Atalanta?), Ward last Summer / this winter etc (and the time it took to shift Slimani), were not forthcoming, not surprisingly when you look at the players potential wage demands to match what we pay and the fees wanted / needed in relation to the bidding clubs size / budget. Teams above us didn’t need them, teams beneath us couldn’t afford them, the teams we were competing with around 7th or 8th such as the likes of West Ham, maybe Everton a couple of years back, Villa and more recently Brighton had their own investment and scouting strategies leaving the foreign market, leagues with less money around as the only likely destinations.
 

I’m not saying not being able to sell fringe players for good fees was our biggest problem or a hugely significant hindrance to our model but before saying we “should have sold them and not let their contracts run down” define “let”, the dye was cast when we paid them too much, once you’ve done that you can’t find a buyer or force them out unless you pay off their contract early, you may have got 20 million for Soumare on Football Manager once but this is real life.

It’s also real life that for a provincial club like Leicester City.Getting players to sign in the first place requires offering Alucrative pay packages.

[ACF]

21 minutes ago, fazzyfox said:

Whilst giving out bonkers wages is the unforgivable cause we have to realise that on the player trading side of things this is real life not a PC / Console game.

 

We turned down a derisory bid from Newcastle for Madison and Vestergaard rejected a move to Fulham, an Italian club kept trying to move the goalposts to sign Praet, maybe a bid for Iverson who was still developing, other than that we would have been happy to move on fringe players and failures but bids for Perez, Amartey, Mendy, Choudhury, Soumare, Praet (low bid from Atalanta?), Ward last Summer / this winter etc (and the time it took to shift Slimani), were not forthcoming, not surprisingly when you look at the players potential wage demands to match what we pay and the fees wanted / needed in relation to the bidding clubs size / budget. Teams above us didn’t need them, teams beneath us couldn’t afford them, the teams we were competing with around 7th or 8th such as the likes of West Ham, maybe Everton a couple of years back, Villa and more recently Brighton had their own investment and scouting strategies leaving the foreign market, leagues with less money around as the only likely destinations.
 

I’m not saying not being able to sell fringe players for good fees was our biggest problem or a hugely significant hindrance to our model but before saying we “should have sold them and not let their contracts run down” define “let”, the dye was cast when we paid them too much, once you’ve done that you can’t find a buyer or force them out unless you pay off their contract early, you may have got 20 million for Soumare on Football Manager once but this is real life.

I think the bit you’re missing is a lot of last years squad did finish 5th. So they’re not JUST deadwood and the wages could kind of be justified.
 

I put a lot of this on Brendan and the management of Brendan. Freezing out Soyuncu/Vesty, not giving youth opportunities (I’m counting Iverson in this) to develop and sell, not playing to players strengths, and destroying the club culture, absolutely killed the player values. 
 

He turned players into deadwood.

[Aus Fox]

The same thing I can’t get over for a long time and these reports and some of the comments about unexpected loss of revenue etc.

At the start of last season, Brendan Rodgers came out and said words to the effect of if you don’t back me in the transfer market we will be lucky to stay up with this squad - I can’t remember the exact quote but it was along those lines.

 

This gave Top, Rudkin or whoever is ultimately responsible for the purse strings options:

 

Option A Brendan is our man - let’s back him.

Option B - We’ve got a squad good enough to compete, let’s sack the manager and get someone in who can do a job with this group of players.

Option C we can’t afford to sack him or back him, but let’s get the accounts in order, ensure there is a contingency plan for the worst case scenario.

 

We as a club chose to do nothing! We didn’t sell and invest, we didn’t replace the manager. Fast forwards 12 months and we can not now say relegated was completely out of the blue and we weren’t prepared for it! The fooking manager told you this was a possibility and those at the top did nothing. We sat around and allowed all of this to happen whilst saying everything is fine.

 

Fast-forward another 12 months and post the major internal review and the same crap is happening, no leadership off the pitch, a manager that thinks funds are available suddenly told there is no money available, fatigue on and off the pitch towards the business end of the season. I mentioned it in the New manager thread, but the same crap keeps happening and will keep happening until there are major changes at the very top end of the club. Rudkin needs to go! Now! Susan Whelan needs to go now! Any on else who signs off on budgets and major financial purchases needs to go now! 
 

[STUHILL]

44 minutes ago, Bazly said:

You have to wonder how you can lose £80mn on the back of selling Fofana and Madders for over £100mn. There must be a money waste chute somewhere. 

According to the Guardian who do tend to be pretty accurate on football matters there could be a recruitment ban on the club this Summer with enforced sales of most valuable playing assets topped off by starting next season on negative points. This current team would get handed its arse week in week out in the EPL so whichever way, EPL or Championship, next season isn't one to look forward to. All to ensure the magic 6 retain their protected status.

It is pretty ridiculous that we have a Billionaire owner who can cover these losses, yet we as a club are being forced to sell our players and banned from buying, on top of a points deduction. It's like saying, we brought in these rules to make your club stable, but we will now do everything in our power to destabilise you and reduce any chance of success on the field, costing you huge amounts of money, all in the name of trying to protect you. 

 

Rules have to change. Owners should be allowed to spend, but for every £1 they do, an equal amount has to be deposited into a bail-out trust fund, which means if the wheels come off, the clubs financial future is secure. 

[hamptonfox]

Part of the wage increases listed in these 22/23 Accounts would probably be Rodgers and his coaching staff getting paid off (full 12 months each?) on top of what they earned from 1st June 2022 around to their sacking 10 months later.

 

Wasn't Rodgers getting paid more than any player?

 

Some madness wage someone dreamt up when Arsenal were looking for a Manager 3 years ago, and we bumped up his pay to rival the Greedy 6s wages for Managers.

 

Wasn't it one of the biggest wages in the Prem?

 

Hopefully we see the full set of accounts this week with more info.

[Heathrow fox]

I can remember several posters lording it because we had the 7th highest wage bill not so long ago.I also wouldn’t rely on Top to keep writing off debts forever.Also think his Dad would have been sucked into the ever increasing wage spiral.

[Mr Mister]

We need to get promoted. It is better to start the reset while in the Premier League.

[Kasey Keller]

Hypothetically speaking

we’ll probably find that if we finished in the top 2 the team that finishes 3rd and misses out will most certainly sue us….

[Heathrow fox]

27 minutes ago, hamptonfox said:

Part of the wage increases listed in these 22/23 Accounts would probably be Rodgers and his coaching staff getting paid off (full 12 months each?) on top of what they earned from 1st June 2022 around to their sacking 10 months later.

 

Wasn't Rodgers getting paid more than any player?

 

Some madness wage someone dreamt up when Arsenal were looking for a Manager 3 years ago, and we bumped up his pay to rival the Greedy 6s wages for Managers.

 

Wasn't it one of the biggest wages in the Prem?

 

Hopefully we see the full set of accounts this week with more info.

At that moment in time Rodgers was the Messiah and if he had of gone to Arsenal there would’ve been outrage.It reminds me of when MON went to Celtic and there was a danger he would take a third of the squad with him.Pay them more the fans demanded.So they did.Two years later the same fans wanted blood because we were stuck with an aged overpaid squad that we couldn’t shift and well.

[Aus Fox]

1 minute ago, Kasey Keller said:

Hypothetically speaking

we’ll probably find that if we finished in the top 2 the team that finishes 3rd and misses out will most certainly sue us….

I don’t think they can, our finances for this season won’t be released for another 12 months, so if my understanding is correct we have technically not broken EFL rules at this stage. So no points deduction can be applied this season or until the accounts are released.

 

[STUHILL]

May have already been posted but Alex Crook on Talksport said that a Championship club spoke to him and said that if the EFL do not charge and deduct points from Leicester for this season, they will be banging on doors aka suing us. They imagine there could be many others too. 

 

The argument being, that we overspent and have players on the books that we shouldn't and that has enabled us to potentially take a promotion place away from another team that stayed within the spending rules.

 

Don't shoot the messenger! 

[SkuseMe]

If posters are correct in that the maximum deduction is locked at around 6 points for a PSR/FFP breach, we really should have gone big over these past two transfer windows in order to "future-proof" the team somewhat. In for a penny, in for a pound. Alas this strategy is likely now closed to us due to embargoes and we'll probably be subject to an onerous business plan.

 

Indeed if it wasn't for embargoes we'd be much better off embracing an annual 6-point deduction for a period and re-establishing our position in the middle of the Prem. There's almost always at least 6 points between 14th and 18th after all, while we could comfortably make a mockery of punishments of this size for any seasons spent in the Championship (even in freaky seasons like now we'd be a shoo-in for the playoffs and then much too strong for those we face there). 

 

Of course the above strategy is totally reliant on Top being comfortable sustaining massive losses and doesn't work if the leagues refuse to let us register players. 🫤

[Benji]

15 minutes ago, STUHILL said:

May have already been posted but Alex Crook on Talksport said that a Championship club spoke to him and said that if the EFL do not charge and deduct points from Leicester for this season, they will be banging on doors aka suing us. They imagine there could be many others too. 

 

The argument being, that we overspent and have players on the books that we shouldn't and that has enabled us to potentially take a promotion place away from another team that stayed within the spending rules.

 

Don't shoot the messenger! 

Us, Leeds, Southampton and I think Burnley all said the same about Everton last year.  The claim appears to have gone nowhere.

[STUHILL]

9 minutes ago, STUHILL said:

May have already been posted but Alex Crook on Talksport said that a Championship club spoke to him and said that if the EFL do not charge and deduct points from Leicester for this season, they will be banging on doors aka suing us. They imagine there could be many others too. 

 

The argument being, that we overspent and have players on the books that we shouldn't and that has enabled us to potentially take a promotion place away from another team that stayed within the spending rules.

 

Don't shoot the messenger! 

I guess this is where the temporary loophole is, which we are trying to exploit. 

We broke rules whilst in the Premier League but because we got relegated, they can't apply a points deduction to us whilst in the Championship.

Equally, we can't have broken EFL rules yet as we have only been subject to them for this current season, although we absolutely will break them.

Seems like the Premier League can't apply any punishment until we get Promoted, and the EFL can't until next season either and only if we don't go up.

Pretty ridiculous that neither league thought of this issue, as a relegation is often exactly what triggers a FFP breach. 

I can see why clubs around us will feel massively aggrieved if we do take a promotion place with a squad partly formed by overspending. 

However, I can't see how the EFL or PL can take points away from us until the start of next season. 

I suspect they will change this if we do get promoted and come up with a points deduction that applies to the EFL if rules were broken in the PL.

If promoted and we only get a 6 point deduction and manage to stay up, then will likely be a lot of very angry clubs...

Hate the game, not the playaaaa 

 

In reality, we are likely to be a Championship club for the foreseeable future, with a potential painful 24/25 season in the Premier League at best.