US Presidential Election 2024

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, MPH said:

 So the only thing that is certain is the present . you *think* the future could be catastrophic going down a certain path. But you’re not sure. No one can be. We don’t know how the technicality we have can can change even in the next few years.

 

 

i would put to you that that it could be a greater threat to mankind to make a ‘rogue’ nation so powerful that they think they can take their chances in a nuclear war.  Money and financing them is the biggest obstacle for them doing rhat.

No, it is a matter of as much certainty - more in fact - that increasing global average temperatures will lead to an environment that results in catastrophic consequences, than a rogue nation deciding they can "win" a nuclear war. The laws of thermodynamics and their consequences are rather more predictable than people.

 

But again, the threat you mention is one of the highest order and needs to be focused on too - but the way Trump is looking to negate it will only end badly.

 

Edit: also again, an environment with reduced resources caused by climate change also likewise increases the likelihood of that rogue nation deciding to engage in warfare.

Edited 3 November 2024 by leicsmac

[MPH]

15 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

No, it is a matter of as much certainty - more in fact - that increasing global average temperatures will lead to an environment that results in catastrophic consequences, than a rogue nation deciding they can "win" a nuclear war. The laws of thermodynamics and their consequences are rather more predictable than people.

 

But again, the threat you mention is one of the highest order and needs to be focused on too - but the way Trump is looking to negate it will only end badly.

 

Edit: also again, an environment with reduced resources caused by climate change also likewise increases the likelihood of that rogue nation deciding to engage in warfare.

I think you missed my point. My point being that you think we would stay on the current path we are on and that energy independence would increase the speed of going down that path. I’m saying that you are assuming we will stay on our current trajectory.

 

im saying there is no way of knowing that.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, MPH said:

I think you missed my point. My point being that you think we would stay on the current path we are on and that energy independence would increase the speed of going down that path. I’m saying that you are assuming we will stay on our current trajectory.

 

im saying there is no way of knowing that.

I think a Trump victory would guarantee that given the pledges he has made and his actions in his first term and I'd be most interested to hear a reason why it wouldn't be so.

[bovril]

The "I'm voting Trump/Brexit/Tories because I'm sick of being told what to do" stuff is stupid obviously but at the same time I kind of understand it because of how annoyingly puritanical the Anglo left has become. It's incredibly stifling when the most innocuous behaviour or language is problematised so I get why many people instinctively want to vote against that. 

[leicsmac]

20 minutes ago, bovril said:

The "I'm voting Trump/Brexit/Tories because I'm sick of being told what to do" stuff is stupid obviously but at the same time I kind of understand it because of how annoyingly puritanical the Anglo left has become. It's incredibly stifling when the most innocuous behaviour or language is problematised so I get why many people instinctively want to vote against that. 

Yeah, it's an explanation. But when the bad stuff happens as a result of it, it can't be used as an excuse.

 

I hope it isn't puritanical to point out reasonably obvious negative consequences and look to hold people accountable for them.

Edited 3 November 2024 by leicsmac

[urban.spaceman]

 

 

 

[grobyfox1990]

2 hours ago, bovril said:

The "I'm voting Trump/Brexit/Tories because I'm sick of being told what to do" stuff is stupid obviously but at the same time I kind of understand it because of how annoyingly puritanical the Anglo left has become. It's incredibly stifling when the most innocuous behaviour or language is problematised so I get why many people instinctively want to vote against that. 

Oh yeh totally. You’d think after the events of 2016 these parties/causes would’ve hired some competent marketing and comms people. Apart from Starmers campaign, the others have just doubled down on their appalling tactics and infantile communication. ‘If you vote for *them* you have NO idea how bad life will get. I’m warning you!’ 

[Parafox]

1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

 

 

 

Nothing he says in that clip makes any sense, regardless of the empty seats.

[leicsmac]

31 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Oh yeh totally. You’d think after the events of 2016 these parties/causes would’ve hired some competent marketing and comms people. Apart from Starmers campaign, the others have just doubled down on their appalling tactics and infantile communication. ‘If you vote for *them* you have NO idea how bad life will get. I’m warning you!’ 

It's funny how the truth is such a poor selling point when people's denial comes into it so much, isn't it?

 

Of course what that does mean that if the truth doesn't sell, then communication does need to be done in a different way.

[Benguin]

On 02/11/2024 at 10:42, Parafox said:

 

I think that's true of most people, tbf.

 

Issues arise when certain people cannot and/or will not be willing to accept diverse arguments, even with proof.

Don’t think you are digging at me personally but I would love to know if you are, what argument I haven’t accepted when provided with proof. That is fundamentally the definition of stupidity and I may not be the smartest in the room but I will always believe what the truth reveals. I would be willing to claim I have probably changed my views directly because of this at least at an above average rate and certainly considerably more than what can reasonably be inferred by some posters on here. 
 

I have gone full circle on a number of political and societal issues as an example:

 

originally believing immigration, particularly illegal is a cancer and now subscribing to a view on immigration that would be left of the likes of James Obrian

 

I have believed that religion is the biggest plague to society and that belief in God is the stupidest thing you can do to believing in God and realising the folly of not.

 

I have believed that Labour are the only party that should ever be trusted to run the country to believing they are the same as all the others, liars.

 

I have believed that climate change is a false flag and will change regardless of what we do to realising that it is a serious issue and will continue to create new challenges in our immediate future and be a significant problem for future generations.

 

My worldview, particularly with politics is more fickle than the average Leicester fans belief in some of the players. 
 

 

 

[grobyfox1990]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

It's funny how the truth is such a poor selling point when people's denial comes into it so much, isn't it?

 

Of course what that does mean that if the truth doesn't sell, then communication does need to be done in a different way.

The truth does not know the future, therefore my statement you bolded is not relevant. I’m guessing you’ll push back with something climate related, but it’s fairly priced in that trump won’t drill baby drill. 

Truth doesn’t sell when it comes with a side of condescension and sneering.

[Dunge]

18 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

The truth does not know the future, therefore my statement you bolded is not relevant. I’m guessing you’ll push back with something climate related, but it’s fairly priced in that trump won’t drill baby drill. 

Truth doesn’t sell when it comes with a side of condescension and sneering.

That’s a very interesting word for it. And I don’t mean that in an insulting way because practically that is what’s happening these days. The truth isn’t standing on its own in people’s eyes, rather it has to be sold as a message, commoditised even.

[leicsmac]

18 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

The truth does not know the future, therefore my statement you bolded is not relevant. I’m guessing you’ll push back with something climate related, but it’s fairly priced in that trump won’t drill baby drill. 

Truth doesn’t sell when it comes with a side of condescension and sneering.

I wish I shared your confidence in that matter, and if science can't make reasonable predictions about the future, climate or otherwise, and base action upon it accordingly, then we might have a few problems, to be honest.

 

I absolutely agree with the second paragraph, but then we've chatted about that topic before.

 

25 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Don’t think you are digging at me personally but I would love to know if you are, what argument I haven’t accepted when provided with proof. That is fundamentally the definition of stupidity and I may not be the smartest in the room but I will always believe what the truth reveals. I would be willing to claim I have probably changed my views directly because of this at least at an above average rate and certainly considerably more than what can reasonably be inferred by some posters on here. 
 

I have gone full circle on a number of political and societal issues as an example:

 

originally believing immigration, particularly illegal is a cancer and now subscribing to a view on immigration that would be left of the likes of James Obrian

 

I have believed that religion is the biggest plague to society and that belief in God is the stupidest thing you can do to believing in God and realising the folly of not.

 

I have believed that Labour are the only party that should ever be trusted to run the country to believing they are the same as all the others, liars.

 

I have believed that climate change is a false flag and will change regardless of what we do to realising that it is a serious issue and will continue to create new challenges in our immediate future and be a significant problem for future generations.

 

My worldview, particularly with politics is more fickle than the average Leicester fans belief in some of the players. 
 

 

 

Well, I'm glad you now think that way.

 

Sadly, it appears that Trump and a large part of his voter base do not.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Dunge said:

That’s a very interesting word for it. And I don’t mean that in an insulting way because practically that is what’s happening these days. The truth isn’t standing on its own in people’s eyes, rather it has to be sold as a message, commoditised even.

Yep.

 

Unfortunately on certain matters, the Earth will not tolerate such subversion of the truth and fundamental laws.

[Benguin]

12 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I wish I shared your confidence in that matter, and if science can't make reasonable predictions about the future, climate or otherwise, and base action upon it accordingly, then we might have a few problems, to be honest.

 

I absolutely agree with the second paragraph, but then we've chatted about that topic before.

 

Well, I'm glad you now think that way.

 

Sadly, it appears that Trump and a large part of his voter base do not.

Don’t have any data on this and you might well be right but i think you’re conflating a belief that it is a problem but not the biggest decision making issue of their voting choices to a complete disregard of the issue.
 

Having said what I said, there are lots of issues that are higher on my list for deciding who to vote for than climate change and that is largely down to the fact that I am responsible for my own carbon footprint (of which I’m convinced is lower than Greta Thunberg’s), an unbelief that we live in a country big enough to matter when we have the Asia problem and an innate selfishness that I think is prevalent in most if not all people. 

[grobyfox1990]

31 minutes ago, Dunge said:

That’s a very interesting word for it. And I don’t mean that in an insulting way because practically that is what’s happening these days. The truth isn’t standing on its own in people’s eyes, rather it has to be sold as a message, commoditised even.

Agreed and it is a tradeable commodity now. See Paul Marshall, farage, boris et al $$$$$. There are different versions and prices for ‘truth.’ Darwinism in action imo 

[HighPeakFox]

55 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Don’t think you are digging at me personally but I would love to know if you are, what argument I haven’t accepted when provided with proof. That is fundamentally the definition of stupidity and I may not be the smartest in the room but I will always believe what the truth reveals. I would be willing to claim I have probably changed my views directly because of this at least at an above average rate and certainly considerably more than what can reasonably be inferred by some posters on here. 
 

I have gone full circle on a number of political and societal issues as an example:

 

originally believing immigration, particularly illegal is a cancer and now subscribing to a view on immigration that would be left of the likes of James Obrian

 

I have believed that religion is the biggest plague to society and that belief in God is the stupidest thing you can do to believing in God and realising the folly of not.

 

I have believed that Labour are the only party that should ever be trusted to run the country to believing they are the same as all the others, liars.

 

I have believed that climate change is a false flag and will change regardless of what we do to realising that it is a serious issue and will continue to create new challenges in our immediate future and be a significant problem for future generations.

 

My worldview, particularly with politics is more fickle than the average Leicester fans belief in some of the players. 
 

I wish to be kind, as an ability to shift belief position is unusual, in a good way. I would say you seem to have quite black or white views & I hope you remain open to the possibility that your current positions might not all be absolutely right - in fact, one of my great weaknesses has been absolutism, so for well-meant humane reasons, I hope you can find the light and shade to go with your firm beliefs. We are often polarised into 'so you vote x, therefore you believe y', and that is clearly preposterous. Some of my best friends vote differently to me and have different belief systems - so this is a message sent in peace.

[Benguin]

9 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

I wish to be kind, as an ability to shift belief position is unusual, in a good way. I would say you seem to have quite black or white views & I hope you remain open to the possibility that your current positions might not all be absolutely right - in fact, one of my great weaknesses has been absolutism, so for well-meant humane reasons, I hope you can find the light and shade to go with your firm beliefs. We are often polarised into 'so you vote x, therefore you believe y', and that is clearly preposterous. Some of my best friends vote differently to me and have different belief systems - so this is a message sent in peace.

Although I use it a lot i actually really hate the terms left/right as I think it’s wrong to base your view on one thing as a determined for what your view should be on another. I have some views that I wont post because it will cause uproar that would be deemed very right wing and I have some that would be deemed very left wing. I find the most black and white people to be those who blindly latch on to every view that falls within their wider political camp and won’t stray from them so as to avoid straying from the whole camp. 

[Koke]

Trump supporters needs to be studied. Their dedication and unwavering support for a politician is mind-blowing. Trump once jokingly said he could shoot someone on 5th avenue and he'd still have die hard supporters defending him. We laughed about it back then. I genuinely believe it to be true now

[leicsmac]

46 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Don’t have any data on this and you might well be right but i think you’re conflating a belief that it is a problem but not the biggest decision making issue of their voting choices to a complete disregard of the issue.
 

Given the scale of the problem and the consequences, I fear that the former and the latter in terms of intent overlap in terms of result.

 

48 minutes ago, Benguin said:

 

Having said what I said, there are lots of issues that are higher on my list for deciding who to vote for than climate change and that is largely down to the fact that I am responsible for my own carbon footprint (of which I’m convinced is lower than Greta Thunberg’s), an unbelief that we live in a country big enough to matter when we have the Asia problem and an innate selfishness that I think is prevalent in most if not all people. 

- Personal responsibility is fine, but political policy is required to make the large scale changes necessary work

- This is a global problem with global consequences. If people think it "too big" for themselves then fair enough, but I don't see future generations looking so kindly upon them for the suffering such thought may inflict upon them

- Self-interest is innate to all organisms, yes. Overcoming that, at least when necessary, is how they (mostly) survive for longer than others.

[Lionator]

3 hours ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Oh yeh totally. You’d think after the events of 2016 these parties/causes would’ve hired some competent marketing and comms people. Apart from Starmers campaign, the others have just doubled down on their appalling tactics and infantile communication. ‘If you vote for *them* you have NO idea how bad life will get. I’m warning you!’ 

The Harris campaign has been the epitome of this. Celebs talking down to people while offering nothing other than “vote for me to save democracy”. 

[Lionator]

2 hours ago, Benguin said:

Don’t think you are digging at me personally but I would love to know if you are, what argument I haven’t accepted when provided with proof. That is fundamentally the definition of stupidity and I may not be the smartest in the room but I will always believe what the truth reveals. I would be willing to claim I have probably changed my views directly because of this at least at an above average rate and certainly considerably more than what can reasonably be inferred by some posters on here. 
 

I have gone full circle on a number of political and societal issues as an example:

 

originally believing immigration, particularly illegal is a cancer and now subscribing to a view on immigration that would be left of the likes of James Obrian

 

I have believed that religion is the biggest plague to society and that belief in God is the stupidest thing you can do to believing in God and realising the folly of not.

 

I have believed that Labour are the only party that should ever be trusted to run the country to believing they are the same as all the others, liars.

 

I have believed that climate change is a false flag and will change regardless of what we do to realising that it is a serious issue and will continue to create new challenges in our immediate future and be a significant problem for future generations.

 

My worldview, particularly with politics is more fickle than the average Leicester fans belief in some of the players. 
 

 

 

I’m glad you’ve been honest here. One thing I do disagree with though, OBrian is a pathetic centrist (and not the good type you get on here)! 
 

In politics the truth is subjective. You can conjure whatever state you want to support your arguments. Our whole economic models are built subjectively. There are little absolute truths. 

Edited 3 November 2024 by Lionator

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, Lionator said:

I’m glad you’ve been honest here. One thing I do disagree with though, OBrian is a pathetic centrist (and not the good type you get on here)! 
 

In politics the truth is subjective. You can conjure whatever state you want to support your arguments. Our whole economic models are built subjectively. There are little absolute truths. 

Absolutely so.

 

However, in other areas the same theory applied can have very, very negative results.

[Lionator]

25 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Absolutely so.

 

However, in other areas the same theory applied can have very, very negative results.

Absolutely. Climate change being the worst example. 

[The Horse's Mouth]

5 hours ago, Lionator said:

The Harris campaign has been the epitome of this. Celebs talking down to people while offering nothing other than “vote for me to save democracy”. 

This is bang on and it doesn’t hold much weight considering she ousted the most popular United States president in history