General News

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

My favourite vegetable is definitely the aubergine (not technically a vegetable I know). Would be interested to hear foxestalkers' favourite vegetables. 

I could eat sweetcorn till it comes out my ears. Though depending on it's state it's defined as a vegetable (on the cob - best!) or dried it's a grain (obvs) though it's actually a fruit.

[SecretPro]

2 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

Did you watch it?

If so, was there any surprising findings?

I watched it, nothing really surprising but there is certainly an issue when it comes to the beyond reasonable doubt bit. Circumstantial evidence rarely leads to a conviction in most crimes, let alone serial killers.

[SecretPro]

34 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

From what I could see he was also a racist inciting violence, I wouldn’t call that being a silly old man. For reference, wasn’t there a JSO organiser jailed for 5 years a while back? I didn’t see many people upset about that. 

5 years for having a zoom call about maybe blocking a motorway to highlight the biggest crisis facing the world today. Get called the unwashed and told to rot off. 

 

Incite riots, destruction and racial hatred for no apparent reason whatsoever, just a silly old man mate.

Edited 21 October 2024 by SecretPro

[bovril]

11 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

I could eat sweetcorn till it comes out my ears. Though depending on it's state it's defined as a vegetable (on the cob - best!) or dried it's a grain (obvs) though it's actually a fruit.

I feel like nothing's just a vegetable anymore. You have all these woke sub categories like legumes now.

[SecretPro]

My desert island veg is cauliflower. 

 

 

 

Especially in Gobi Manchurian guise from Mithas 

Edited 21 October 2024 by SecretPro

[bovril]

16 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

My desert island veg is cauliflower. 

 

 

 

Especially in Gobi Manchurian guise from Mithas 

Cauliflower cheese is such a cosy dish

[Zear0]

48 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

I could eat sweetcorn till it comes out my ears. Though depending on it's state it's defined as a vegetable (on the cob - best!) or dried it's a grain (obvs) though it's actually a fruit.

Don't usually find consumed sweetcorn coming out of that orifice...

[kenny]

3 hours ago, Dunge said:

Curries and chilli are out for me. And mushrooms. But egg fried rice sounds like something I could look into.

Start by reducing the meat content of your meals by lacing in lentils into existing recipes. Red or green lentils are cheap and inoffensive. Chickpeas and tinned beans eg borlotti, cannellini, butter are cheap bulk for meals.

 

Also choose smaller better quality cuts of meat then have larger sides of veggies. The end result across a week is the same as having a couple of meat free days.

 

Edited 21 October 2024 by kenny

[StanSP]

9 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

Yeah, I agree. The sentences dished out are deterrent and about maintaining public order. 

 

Just not convinced that's right or fair. 

 

Put it like this,.if I was directly responsible for sending to prison a silly old man who got carried away whilst waving placard about NASA and thr deep state, I'd feel a bit sheepish tonight

Did he have any previous criminal history? Sometimes that can influence sentencing, too, as well as the actual crime he was tried for. 

[nnfox]

9 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

His sentence wasn't about individual justice. It was political.

 

His crime under ordinary circumstances might attract a suspended sentence or community order. 2 years 8 months imprisonment was grotesquely disproportionate to the crime. 

It wasn't political in the sense of playing the game of politics.  It was the government acting how a government should act.  The first job of any government is to keep our borders secure from foreign military invasion and the second job is to maintain law and order.  Without those two things, literally nothing else matters.  So when there is widespread disorder like we saw, the wheels of government start to turn to return order to the streets.  In this case, that was swift and harsh justice, but guess what - it worked!  When people see that people were getting arrested, charged and then thrown in jail for two or three years the next day, all of a sudden people weren't so brave.

 

A wise man once said "Chat sh*t, get banged". Oh, how true.

[Trav Le Bleu]

12 minutes ago, nnfox said:

It wasn't political in the sense of playing the game of politics.  It was the government acting how a government should act.  The first job of any government is to keep our borders secure from foreign military invasion and the second job is to maintain law and order.  Without those two things, literally nothing else matters.  So when there is widespread disorder like we saw, the wheels of government start to turn to return order to the streets.  In this case, that was swift and harsh justice, but guess what - it worked!  When people see that people were getting arrested, charged and then thrown in jail for two or three years the next day, all of a sudden people weren't so brave.

 

A wise man once said "Chat sh*t, get banged". Oh, how true.

So basically... JV4PM?

[Jon the Hat]

9 hours ago, SecretPro said:

I watched it, nothing really surprising but there is certainly an issue when it comes to the beyond reasonable doubt bit. Circumstantial evidence rarely leads to a conviction in most crimes, let alone serial killers.

That isn't really true though is it?  The phrase is misunderstood, I think.  If you were the only person able to commit a crime, and a crime certainly occurred then circumstantial evidence is damning.

[SecretPro]

48 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

That isn't really true though is it?  The phrase is misunderstood, I think.  If you were the only person able to commit a crime, and a crime certainly occurred then circumstantial evidence is damning.

Perhaps, I don't know, I've only worked in the justice system for 20 years. 

 

Relatively speaking, especially for the more serious crimes, CCTV and forensic evidence are key in my experience. 

 

This was a very high profile crime, it was never not going to make it to the Courts and when it does, that's half the battle won. I see far more investigations dropped by the CPS where common sense screams guilty through lack of solid evidence than I do see actually prosecuted. That's the nature of the judicial thresholds in this country. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way claiming Letby is innocent, far from it, but there are elements of the evidence in this case that I don't think would or could have been relied on in a less high profile case.

Edited 22 October 2024 by SecretPro

[Lionator]

12 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

His sentence wasn't about individual justice. It was political.

 

His crime under ordinary circumstances might attract a suspended sentence or community order. 2 years 8 months imprisonment was grotesquely disproportionate to the crime. 

He intimidated and threatened people and caused a very high level of trauma. I for one would not like a justice system where people don’t get sent to prison on the basis that they may end up harming themselves once inside, as nobody would ever be sent to prison. 

[Lionator]

The Martyn Blake/Chris Kaba case is an interesting one. From what we know I think the jury came to the correct decision. In an ideal world he wouldn’t have been shot but we don’t live in that world in those particular circumstances.

 

In terms of the wider picture, I think it would be damaging to tie this case into a systemic discrimination argument (which is a very real problem such as in the Bianca Williams case), the individual factors are so strong that this was a murderous man in a desperate headspace. 

Edited 22 October 2024 by Lionator

[Wymsey]

Would've the case outcome been different had the deceased been white?

[Otis]

33 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

Would've the case outcome been different had the deceased been white?

Doubt it, because it wasn't a  racist killing. 

[Lionator]

33 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

Would've the case outcome been different had the deceased been white?

We’ll never know for lots of reasons. I would like to think no but you can never tell. From the evidence in the public domain, it subjectively is not murder even if he shouldn't have been killed. 

[Torquay Gunner]

38 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

Would've the case outcome been different had the deceased been white?

I strongly suspect yes.  It was only last year a report (commissioned by the Met themselves) branded the force institutionally racist, misogynistic and homophobic.  

[Pliskin]

https://news.sky.com/story/chris-kaba-was-core-member-of-gang-and-gunman-in-nightclub-shooting-days-before-he-was-killed-by-police-13234555

 

 

[nnfox]

49 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

https://news.sky.com/story/chris-kaba-was-core-member-of-gang-and-gunman-in-nightclub-shooting-days-before-he-was-killed-by-police-13234555

 

 

Interesting.  The family never mentioned anything about this.

[Lionator]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I find refusal to engage on certain topics that are important but might be awkward to explain a position on (as per last page) offensive.

 

 

 

 

Interesting diversity of opinion on this one then.

Chuffed that I’m in the centre ground on this one 🤣

 

2 hours ago, Torquay Gunner said:

I strongly suspect yes.  It was only last year a report (commissioned by the Met themselves) branded the force institutionally racist, misogynistic and homophobic.  

Just because it is all of those things, which it is, doesn’t mean that it’s applicable in this case outcomes. I would imagine that they knew this man was not to be messed around with. But we’ll never 100% know for sure whether unconscious bias played on the police officers mind, but that doesn’t mean he should be convicted for murder. So it’s really a different argument. 

[Guest TamworthFoxes]

1 minute ago, nnfox said:

Interesting.  The family never mentioned anything about this.

The family allegedly tried to extend the injunction so this information couldn’t be shared after the trial either.

Doesnt fit in with the innocent family man shot on a routine stop narrative.

The biggest disgrace in this is the fact the CPS charged him and ran trial. 
I hope he sues the Met and CPS for as much as possible and never has to work again.

[LiberalFox]

I know it won't happen but I'd rather sensitive matters like the Kaba death were handled with respect for all parties as far as possible. 

 

The fact it went to court would mean the CPS believed there was a realistic prospect of a conviction for murder. 

 

I think I'd be interested to hear from people with expert knowledge. 

[Pliskin]

12 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

I know it won't happen but I'd rather sensitive matters like the Kaba death were handled with respect for all parties as far as possible. 

 

The fact it went to court would mean the CPS believed there was a realistic prospect of a conviction for murder. 

 

I think I'd be interested to hear from people with expert knowledge. 

This would be impossible. Because for murder there has to be proof of a pre planned intent. For which there was not. In my opinion, it was basically a scenario of passing the book. Neither the IOPC nor the CPS wanted to make a decision due to the potential public backlash, so they’ve let it go to court for a jury to decide.