Cooper - In

[BigGibbo]

Although we appear to have no gameplan other than generally conservative football, several of our second string starting, and, up until yesterday, in game management being too little too late - one thing is for sure, this exact team would have been rock bottom with our attitude in the last 2 Rodgers seasons, so there is some credit in there for him somewhere... 

 

As long as he keeps failing upwards or sideways I can give the appearance of neutrality from here.

[murphy]

5 hours ago, J. James said:

Lol.. Exactly as l predicted in the pre match.. The haters will say that if we win it was down to the players not Cooper..

 

And if you're sure he's just lucky it MUST be true!

 

Congratulations you're the first of the haters.

Great win and I'll take the points however we can come by them.  My worry was that we were squandering winnable games under Cooper that we could ill afford (ie Palace and Everton) but two on the bounce buys him credit, but as you mock fans for saying this was down to the players and not Cooper, let me ask you which one of these options is most likely in your opinion:

 

A) Gameplan executed perfectly.  It was always meant to happen this way.

 

B) Poor set up, selection and formation again resulting in another heinous first half non-display, but rescued in the second half with tactical changes and subs.

 

C) Clueless Cooper bailed out by the players.

 

I reckon B) which shows he is still making the same mistakes, but the changes at least show some flexibility and give me some hope for the future, but if you agree, it is hardly grounds for a smugfest.

 

At least having conceded early we never saw the Cooper that camps in his own half cus that really makes rage 

[Vlad the Fox]

Most on here stated they would be happy with 17th at the end of the season.
 

What on earth did they expect 17th to look like? 
 

 

 

[dr.o.ball]

2 hours ago, foxfanazer said:

We're conceding the same goal every week though and it isn't being addressed. 

 

My point is we need to learn to play before we're behind as eventually we'll leave ourselves with too much to do. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve any credit by the way but we can't say we executed our game plan well yesterday 

I'm sort of agreeing with you to a point but winning is a game plan gone well, to me, but gone perfectly well is another thing altogether.

Arsenal look good, brilliant manager, great set pieces, with an absolute game plan and identity, but it didn't work against Bournemouth and being a man down is equivalent to being 2 goals down. Well executed Cooper no so much Arteta.

[les-tah]

I’m a little torn. Yesterday, Southampton seemed like a team similar to Kompany’s Burnley, where they’re insisting on playing total football with weaker players and getting found out. Cooper, on the other hand, is relying on his experience to grind out results and survive this season. I know which style I prefer and thats simply staying up, but it’s hard to watch. My question is: at what point does Cooper’s playing style come into play? Does it only work with better players is that what hes told Rudkin and Top - Survive this season then we can play football?

Edited 20 October 2024 by les-tah

[Dahnsouff]

2 hours ago, murphy said:

Great win and I'll take the points however we can come by them.  My worry was that we were squandering winnable games under Cooper that we could ill afford (ie Palace and Everton) but two on the bounce buys him credit, but as you mock fans for saying this was down to the players and not Cooper, let me ask you which one of these options is most likely in your opinion:

 

A) Gameplan executed perfectly.  It was always meant to happen this way.

 

B) Poor set up, selection and formation again resulting in another heinous first half non-display, but rescued in the second half with tactical changes and subs.

 

C) Clueless Cooper bailed out by the players.

 

I reckon B) which shows he is still making the same mistakes, but the changes at least show some flexibility and give me some hope for the future, but if you agree, it is hardly grounds for a smugfest.

 

At least having conceded early we never saw the Cooper that camps in his own half cus that really makes rage 

B is closest but too negative.

[murphy]

OK,:

 

B) poor sset up and selection again resulting in heinous first half non-display until... Over the brow of the hill here comes sir cooper on his white charger with his tactical masterplan to save the day and lead us to glory. 

 

[Dahnsouff]

Can we have it graphical novel form? Starting to sound quite exciting 

[Ted Maul]

Points on the board. We've had some luck but he's bought himself a bit of time to iron out the issues (though if we don't win one of the next 2 then the pressure will be on again).

[Fox1980]

1 hour ago, Vlad the Fox said:

Most on here stated they would be happy with 17th at the end of the season.
 

What on earth did they expect 17th to look like? 
 

 

 

I want to finish 17th but I want us to do it by winning every week 

[CrispinLA in Texas]

Got to give him abit of credit.... he's learning on the job 

[J. James]

11 hours ago, murphy said:

Great win and I'll take the points however we can come by them.  My worry was that we were squandering winnable games under Cooper that we could ill afford (ie Palace and Everton) but two on the bounce buys him credit, but as you mock fans for saying this was down to the players and not Cooper, let me ask you which one of these options is most likely in your opinion:

 

A) Gameplan executed perfectly.  It was always meant to happen this way.

 

B) Poor set up, selection and formation again resulting in another heinous first half non-display, but rescued in the second half with tactical changes and subs.

 

C) Clueless Cooper bailed out by the players.

 

I reckon B) which shows he is still making the same mistakes, but the changes at least show some flexibility and give me some hope for the future, but if you agree, it is hardly grounds for a smugfest.

 

At least having conceded early we never saw the Cooper that camps in his own half cus that really makes rage 

Lol.. So you believe that there are only 3 options which explain an incredibly complicated event such as 45 mins of football!

 

My whole point is that there can be no simple cause or remedy, it's not black or white, nothing is, everything is a shade of grey.

 

This is how l see it, Cooper is not a tactical genius nor is he a fool, like most he falls somewhere in between.

 

His team selection was good as most commented at the time, Fatawu was omitted for what ever reason but the general concensus was positive, from that point it's the players responsibility to perform - they plainly did not.

 

Half time and the chance for a manager to try to change things.

 

In this case things clearly changed.

 

If the manager is popular, he would be lauded as inspirational, a brilliant motivator who inspired his men to snatch a famous victory from the Jaws of defeat.

 

Or if like Cooper an unpopular manager with a small vocal minority, its luck, the players, the rain stopped or anything but his doing.

 

The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

Here are the facts.

 

1.He picked an attacking team

2. He picked questionable subs which many criticised, particularly Ayew, but did not use the dreadful Soumare.

3.The first half performance was shambolic.

4. The second half (generally regarded as a measure of the managers influence) was excellent.

5. His substitutions worked and changed the game.

6. The most criticised player scored the winner.

 

Now, you could say it was down to him that the first half was so bad, but then it was also down to him that the second half was better by a factor of 3 to 2, or both halves were down to the players.

 

But it is plainly ridiculous to blame him for the first half and credit the players for the second!

 

And that is what I'm calling out, one honest man posted that there is literally NOTHING Cooper could do change his opinion of him, l sincerely believe that is where the majority of the haters are but won't admit it.

 

Fair criticism is great, (many of those critical of his bench remarked that Iverson should be there not Ward - a measure of their knowledge in a nutshell, he's on loan to Stoke)

 

But what l find distasteful is the mindless, mob hatred based on nothing but assumptions, what someone suspects the players think or just plain fantasy.

 

You and others can speculate, quote opta data and bookies numbers till the cows come home but the only thing that matters is that we won again and he is doing the job he is paid for atm.

[Lako42]

Thread gets closed when he loses on purpose on Friday 

[Dahnsouff]

8 hours ago, Lako42 said:

Thread gets closed when he loses on purpose on Friday 

By that logic we should close "Cooper Out" after winning two in a row   

[murphy]

11 hours ago, J. James said:

Lol.. So you believe that there are only 3 options which explain an incredibly complicated event such as 45 mins of football!

 

No.  You have totally misunderstood.  Err... lol.

 

I was not attempting to explain every event in the game at all.  You mocked the guy that suggested the players carried the day despite Cooper and I agree that is likely unfair.  So I presented the other extreme, that the fact that we were dominated in the first half was all part of Cooper's ultimate master plan, again unlikely, which leaves the more likely option in which Cooper reacted to the situation with substitutions and change of shape, for which he deserves credit, but it still shows that he set us up poorly again and was exposed, thus it was hardly grounds for a smugfest/vindication on your part as we still have big problems.  That was all I was saying.

 

It leaves me conflicted as I still have grave concerns but you can't argue with two in two however it comes and the changes at least give me hope for the future that he might be learning.

 

Anyway, you misunderstood my original post so the rest of yours is largely redundant but it does show that you are doubling down on your assumption that Cooper is unpopular just because he is unpopular and not for of a multitude of very valid footballing reasons.  I have tried to explain that to you before but it seems that went straight over your head too.

 

edit - btw Iversen is not at Stoke.  That was last season.   You really ought to have checked that before using it as a stick to beat others for the 'depth of their footballing knowledge'.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 October 2024 by murphy

[J. James]

9 hours ago, murphy said:

edit - btw Iversen is not at Stoke.  That was last season.   You really ought to have checked that before using it as a stick to beat others for the 'depth of their footballing knowledge'.  

Yeah, got this a bit wrong, l know he went out in January, l thought it was for this season too if we didn't sell him.

[Beachyboy]

On 20/10/2024 at 13:08, dr.o.ball said:

I'm sort of agreeing with you to a point but winning is a game plan gone well, to me, but gone perfectly well is another thing altogether.

Arsenal look good, brilliant manager, great set pieces, with an absolute game plan and identity, but it didn't work against Bournemouth and being a man down is equivalent to being 2 goals down. Well executed Cooper no so much Arteta.

Arsenal should have more or a chance of winning a game 1 player down against Bournemouth than we do 2 goals down against anyone. We haven't ever done it before Saturday in the premiership being 2 goals down at HT. The only 1 I could ever think of was the 3-2 Villa win in the league winning season, it was 1-0 at HT in that game.

[Beachyboy]

On 20/10/2024 at 13:44, Fox1980 said:

I want to finish 17th but I want us to do it by winning every week 

I think that's the plan, 17th for most goals conceded and try to win

[slymunn]

2 minutes ago, Beachyboy said:

Arsenal should have more or a chance of winning a game 1 player down against Bournemouth than we do 2 goals down against anyone. We haven't ever done it before Saturday in the premiership being 2 goals down at HT. The only 1 I could ever think of was the 3-2 Villa win in the league winning season, it was 1-0 at HT in that game.

Man united 5 3 we did. We was 2 0 after about 15 minutes.

 

It was the first time away from home we've won from two goals down. But done it a few times at home.

[Foxmeister]

I think I watched a different game to everyone else, we conceded 2 very poor goals in the first half but we were also quite enterprising in patches. I said to my brother, at half-time, that if we were ever going to win a game from 2-0 down it was today.

[Beachyboy]

4 minutes ago, slymunn said:

Man united 5 3 we did. We was 2 0 after about 15 minutes.

 

It was the first time away from home we've won from two goals down. But done it a few times at home.

These stats are a little flawed but the stat is being 2 goals down at HT, in the man utd game it was 2-1 at HT, they then scored in the second half to go 3-1 and we scored 4 after that

Edited 21 October 2024 by Beachyboy

[jim5000]

On 20/10/2024 at 14:22, CrispinLA in Texas said:

Got to give him abit of credit.... he's learning on the job 

Just what you want from a Premier League manager on £2m a year!

[BluethroughtheMiddle]

On 20/10/2024 at 11:58, Vlad the Fox said:

Most on here stated they would be happy with 17th at the end of the season.
 

What on earth did they expect 17th to look like? 
 

 

 

17th with someone like Pep in charge apparently. Then it would be ok?

[Detroit Blues]

This is going to be far from my most popular take - I'm Cooper Agnostic. I think his "system," whatever that is, and his player selections have been poor. But i will say that in every game, i got the feeling that his team was really fighting and competing. Even outgunned and out-coached, Leicester has at least put up a fight in every game this season. Perhaps that is a low bar, but after the relegation season, i won't discount how important that is.

 

If he can figure out the right players and tactics, then this team could potentially be mid-table and easily survive the season intact. If he can't, honestly, seeing what we are competing against in the rest of the Premier League, we still might just scrape by.

 

All that said, I think the thing that annoys me most the discussion of Steve Cooper, is how much baggage the "Cooper Out" crowd brings into it. Like, so many people are laying at his feet their disdain for the ownership, for Jon Rudkin, for the faults that led to relegation, and all this irrelevant crap that he has nothing to do with. We were miserable all of last year, complaining about Enzo, even when we won every week, and unsurprisingly that hasn't changed under Steve Cooper, now that we are not winning as often. 

 

There is plenty to blame Steve Cooper for, so i would just wish people would stick with the things he can actually control... like playing Ricardo

[trooky]

I'm not sure you would all be praising Cooper's substitutions if the penalty was awarded against Ayew for shirt pulling from the corner and we went 3-1 down.

 

Strange time to bring a player on defending a corner.

 

We were very lucky, a penalty would have been awarded 99 times out of a 100 for that incident.