General News Thread

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Personally I’m just so so so sick of cultural and social issues that have little impact on the actual issues in this country being in the headlines constantly while the actual things that matter are degrading around us. 

There's something in that, too. 

 

Bigger problems are being overlooked, or even denied, in favour of whatever happens to be flavour of the month (or year) on social media. 

[Spudulike]

Interesting timing...

 

 

[leicsmac]

Oh, and as a general comment on what some folks believe to be the matter behind this talking point:

 

I really don't think any nation with nuclear weapons is in a position to say they're being too (italicised for emphasis) victimised, simply because they always have that very absolute option to address whoever might be victimising them. 

[st albans fox]

7 minutes ago, Samilktray said:

Whats the reaction to this on the continent when it happens? Can't imagine its anything like as OTT as this 

I doubt it’s anything like this 

But it’s usually the away fans being banned for their behaviour.  This seems to be based primarily upon the safety of the away fans not able to be guaranteed. 

[st albans fox]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Oh, and as a general comment on what some folks believe to be the matter behind this talking point:

 

I really don't think any nation with nuclear weapons is in a position to say they're being too (italicised for emphasis) victimised, simply because they always have that very absolute option to address whoever might be victimising them. 

That’s too philosophical for me Mac. Not totally clear what you mean but surely no country is using a nuclear weapon unless the actual existence of it is being unarguably called into question by an attack upon it. (Or it is attacked by a nuclear weapon itself) 

[Mickyblueeyes]

Weren’t Macabi Tel Aviv fans chanting anti Arab/and for the death of Palestinians in Amsterdam. Considered by many to be the second most racist fan base in Israel’s premier league ? 
 

Yeah, we should all be outraged. 

[st albans fox]

Just now, Mickyblueeyes said:

Weren’t Macabi Tel Aviv fans chanting anti Arab/and for the death of Palestinians in Amsterdam. Considered by many to be the second most racist fan base in Israel’s premier league ? 
 

Yeah, we should all be outraged. 

They do have form for some unpleasant anti Arab chants.  (has anyone studied unpleasant football fan chants from around the world ? there must be some grim ones - are clubs banned for them? ) 

 

it’s up to uefa to bring charges and bans upon clubs for their behaviour.  This is not that.  The police are stuck between a rock and a hard place here. 

 

 

[Spudulike]

6 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I doubt it’s anything like this 

But it’s usually the away fans being banned for their behaviour.  This seems to be based primarily upon the safety of the away fans not able to be guaranteed. 

This is based primarily on the appeasement of the violent mob rule that's shamed our cities. It's an admittance that authorities have lost control. 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

That’s too philosophical for me Mac. Not totally clear what you mean but surely no country is using a nuclear weapon unless the actual existence of it is being unarguably called into question by an attack upon it. (Or it is attacked by a nuclear weapon itself) 

Fair to say. 

 

I'm just giving something of a shrug to the idea that this all is somehow indicative of anything other than football policing, because in the field of sociopolitics, every nation with those weapons naturally has the ability to defend its interests and that of the people it has and is affiliated with.

 

Do agree with your comment immediately above that this is more a UEFA matter than anything else. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Spudulike said:

This is based primarily on the appeasement of the violent mob rule that's shamed our cities. It's an admittance that authorities have lost control. 

Fox News were clearly right about Birmingham then. Who knew?

[Samilktray]

10 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Weren’t Macabi Tel Aviv fans chanting anti Arab/and for the death of Palestinians in Amsterdam. Considered by many to be the second most racist fan base in Israel’s premier league ? 
 

Yeah, we should all be outraged. 

Sound like a lovely bunch!

[Spudulike]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Fox News were clearly right about Birmingham then. Who knew?

No idea. I never watch Fox News or any US news programmes. Birmingham, Alabama?

[Mickyblueeyes]

3 minutes ago, Samilktray said:

Sound like a lovely bunch!

Defending fellas who sing about kids being killed a bit of a red line for me. And painting them as victims. **** me. 

[Spudulike]

1 minute ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Defending fellas who sing about kids being killed a bit of a red line for me. And painting them as victims. **** me. 

Do you think that Celtic fans would've been banned in these circumstances?

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

No idea. I never watch Fox News or any US news programmes. Birmingham, Alabama?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-34317107

 

10 years ago, but I'm pretty sure the stance of that talking head or the viewership hasn't changed much positively in the meantime. 

[kenny]

15 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Weren’t Macabi Tel Aviv fans chanting anti Arab/and for the death of Palestinians in Amsterdam. Considered by many to be the second most racist fan base in Israel’s premier league ? 
 

Yeah, we should all be outraged. 

Correct. They also pulled down some Palestine flags.

 

The response from the 'Free Palestine' Whatsapp group was to organise a 'Jew Hunt'.

 

Sounds like there was 60 arrests, 10 of which were the Israeli football fans.

[Mickyblueeyes]

4 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

Do you think that Celtic fans would've been banned in these circumstances?

If Celtic fans were out there singing racist chants/death to someone/about kids dying. Ban them. However, defending fans who did do that because Celtic might not have been banned is a bit perverse in my opinion. 
 

Whether it comes from Celtic, Accrington Stanley, Kaiser Chiefs or Macabi, it’s still abhorrent. 
 

 

[Mickyblueeyes]

4 minutes ago, kenny said:

Correct. They also pulled down some Palestine flags.

 

The response from the 'Free Palestine' Whatsapp group was to organise a 'Jew Hunt'.

 

Sounds like there was 60 arrests, 10 of which were the Israeli football fans.

Ban them all. 

[Sampson]

53 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Personally I’m just so so so sick of cultural and social issues that have little impact on the actual issues in this country being in the headlines constantly while the actual things that matter are degrading around us. 

To get on Bovril's train, it's just the ultimate result of the Americanisation of British and European politics. Because, unlike the rest of the world, America never had a socialist movement and so its divisions were just cultural ones rather than economic debates about the private sector vs the public sector and how much control and intervention the state get into politics. And it's a very sort of reality tv style of politics rather than discussing economic theory

 

And so now because of social media and even before that I also think the success of US tv shows with its very American and black-and-white cultural politics like South Park played a role in it. I think Sarah Palin was a big turning point because she got so much coverage online and on the comedy panel shows in the UK back in the day for her very American cultural views that really were extremely unknown in the UK or European politics at the time, stuff like abortion was just never actual political issues in the UK and now I hear very Americanised arguments for the opposition of it and campaign groups outside abortion clinics that just never would've existed in the UK a generation ago.

 

A big obvious example of it is how you see people call liberals "lefties" in the UK nowadays which would've been unheard of in the UK 25 years ago as Liberalism was always about freedom from the state and generally very pro-markets and private enterprise and liberals always used to be considered centrists or right of centre here (John Major and Tony Blair were probably the ultimate liberal PMs in post-war UK politics and they was always considered centre or right of centre back in the day in the UK whenever people were polled).

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, kenny said:

Correct. They also pulled down some Palestine flags.

 

The response from the 'Free Palestine' Whatsapp group was to organise a 'Jew Hunt'.

 

Sounds like there was 60 arrests, 10 of which were the Israeli football fans.

For clarity, the Jew hunt was pre organised. The aggro and unpleasant chanting from MTA creates a background of ‘two sides to this’ for those who want to debate it.   
 

I can only assume that WMP have intelligence that something similar is possible in Birmingham. 

[Spudulike]

1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

If Celtic fans were out there singing racist chants/death to someone/about kids dying. Ban them. However, defending fans who did do that because Celtic might not have been banned is a bit perverse in my opinion. 
 

Whether it comes from Celtic, Accrington Stanley, Kaiser Chiefs or Macabi, it’s still abhorrent. 
 

 

Have you seen the vile racist stuff that's chanted and displayed every match at Celtic Park? Some of them must be sick. Not defending any group of fans, I'll call it out where ever it comes from.

 

My guess is Celtic fans wouldn't be banned and perhaps even welcomed by some in Birmingham.

[leicsmac]

46 minutes ago, Sampson said:

To get on Bovril's train, it's just the ultimate result of the Americanisation of British and European politics. Because, unlike the rest of the world, America never had a socialist movement and so its divisions were just cultural ones rather than economic debates about the private sector vs the public sector and how much control and intervention the state get into politics. And it's a very sort of reality tv style of politics rather than discussing economic theory

 

And so now because of social media and even before that I also think the success of US tv shows with its very American and black-and-white cultural politics like South Park played a role in it. I think Sarah Palin was a big turning point because she got so much coverage online and on the comedy panel shows in the UK back in the day for her very American cultural views that really were extremely unknown in the UK or European politics at the time, stuff like abortion was just never actual political issues in the UK and now I hear very Americanised arguments for the opposition of it and campaign groups outside abortion clinics that just never would've existed in the UK a generation ago.

 

A big obvious example of it is how you see people call liberals "lefties" in the UK nowadays which would've been unheard of in the UK 25 years ago as Liberalism was always about freedom from the state and generally very pro-markets and private enterprise and liberals always used to be considered centrists or right of centre here (John Major and Tony Blair were probably the ultimate liberal PMs in post-war UK politics and they was always considered centre or right of centre back in the day in the UK whenever people were polled).

And all the time, this culture war rubbish gets treated as if it's the most important concern while other concerns are getting ready to mess everyone up good.

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, Spudulike said:

This is based primarily on the appeasement of the violent mob rule that's shamed our cities. It's an admittance that authorities have lost control. 

Not a lot different from the late 80s really. 

[bovril]

'culture war' stuff around e.g identity, traditions etc does matter to people though. I don't think these things are whipped up by populists to distract from real issues, just that for a lot of people economic concerns are not necessarily the most important thing. Like as little as I give a shit about some racist Israelis being banned from a football game, it is obviously more important to me that many of our cities are potential tinder boxes of inter ethnic and religious conflicts than stuff like GDP and inflation. 

[Foxdiamond]

21 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

Have you seen the vile racist stuff that's chanted and displayed every match at Celtic Park? Some of them must be sick. Not defending any group of fans, I'll call it out where ever it comes from.

 

My guess is Celtic fans wouldn't be banned and perhaps even welcomed by some in Birmingham.

I would think the fans should be closely policed but the added problem is those wishing to attack the fans. You can argue the fans should be allowed for sporting reasons but trouble dealt with as you expect with any fixture. The added dimension is those that wish to exploit the presence of people they don't like. Should these set the agenda of who can visit our cities. A tricky one