General News Thread

[leicsmac]

20 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Now for something even more positive:

 

The Bayeux Tapestry will be shown in London starting this September for the first time in close to 950 years.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/when-the-bayeaux-tapestry-makes-its-historic-return-to-england-the-british-government-will-insure-it-for-more-than-1-billion-180987938/

Is that possibly the highest value item ever actually insured?

[st albans fox]

3 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

The historical context surrounding the rise of the Nazi party a hundred years ago bears no resemblance to the US today.

For a start, Weimar Germany was a democracy, albeit a fragile and short-lived one.

The US aren't a democracy, but a two-party democratic republic. Big difference.

 

Very simplified:

 

Germany had lost a war, and antisemitism been growing since the mid-19th century. The country was down on its knees financially (reparations) and the military wanted revenge ("Dolchstosslegende").

Hitler bore tons of resentment towards the Jews.

He found people who shared that sentiment.

Failed coup.

Kristallnacht.

Dictatorship. Uniparty.

Deportations.

Concentration Camps.

WWII.

The end.

 

Anyone putting Trump and Hitler on the same level is completely bonkers.

Who (a serious person, not the ultra left idiots with no history education)  has put trump and hitler on the same level ?

 

 

[danny.]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

Who (a serious person, not the ultra left idiots with no history education)  has put trump and hitler on the same level ?

 

 

I see it multiple times daily, along with fascist, racist and far/extreme right when people say anything to the right of the far left. I don’t think most people have a clue what they are even saying. 
 

[leicsmac]

27 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Who (a serious person, not the ultra left idiots with no history education)  has put trump and hitler on the same level ?

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, danny. said:

I see it multiple times daily, along with fascist, racist and far/extreme right when people say anything to the right of the far left. I don’t think most people have a clue what they are even saying. 
 

...which is then used as a convenient justification to avoid discussion/criticism of the very real bad stuff Trump and those who think like him are up to.

[danny.]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

...which is then used as a convenient justification to avoid discussion/criticism of the very real bad stuff Trump and those who think like him are up to.

well it's not really convenient, I think most people would prefer an adult conversion without the hyperbole.

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, danny. said:

well it's not really convenient, I think most people would prefer an adult conversion without the hyperbole.

Depends on the individual, clearly.

 

I would agree that most people would prefer reasoned conversation, but two observations on that:

 

- my own experience in science communication has taught me that a great many people, enough to affect policy in a democracy, don't accept reasoned explanation of consequences of poor decisions pointed out to them until those consequences are hitting them square in the face, by which time it's a bit late for them and often a lot of innocent sods they've taken along for the ride, the same may be true in other areas of policymaking

 

And 

 

- given that attempts at reasoned and adult conversation have led us to where we are now, I'm not entirely sure of that solely as a method of winning enough minds to guide policy in the way it needs to be guided to avoid much more unpleasant times. 

 

In principle, I'd be happy to agree entirely here. In practice... not so much. 

[danny.]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Depends on the individual, clearly.

 

I would agree that most people would prefer reasoned conversation, but two observations on that:

 

- my own experience in science communication has taught me that a great many people, enough to affect policy in a democracy, don't accept reasoned explanation of consequences of poor decisions pointed out to them until those consequences are hitting them square in the face, by which time it's a bit late for them and often a lot of innocent sods they've taken along for the ride, the same may be true in other areas of policymaking

 

And 

 

- given that attempts at reasoned and adult conversation have led us to where we are now, I'm not entirely sure of that solely as a method of winning enough minds to guide policy in the way it needs to be guided to avoid much more unpleasant times. 

 

In principle, I'd be happy to agree entirely here. In practice... not so much. 

I can confidently say what doesn't win minds, going around shouting everyone is a racist, fascist or Hitler. That was one of the main reasons we ended up leaving the EU.

[MC Prussian]

29 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

...which is then used as a convenient justification to avoid discussion/criticism of the very real bad stuff Trump and those who think like him are up to.

Can we start by agreeing on the fact that arguing Trump equals Hitler (or that Trump has Hitler tendencies, or any kind of this rhetoric) is absolutely moronic?

And it only comes from the left and/or people who just regurgitate what others have chewed on before them.

 

Imagine if I were to say Keir Starmer follows the Stalin handbook. Equally retarded.

[Sampson]

“We want reasoned non-hyperbolic conversation” whilst simultaneously going on about people being “anything right of far left” and “ultra left weirdos” seems pretty disingenuous to me ngl.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, danny. said:

I can confidently say what doesn't win minds, going around shouting everyone is a racist, fascist or Hitler. That was one of the main reasons we ended up leaving the EU.

Yep, and look at the mess that's caused by people who supposedly aren't "snowflakes" letting such words get to them. 

 

But anyhow, that aside, assuming this is true, what really is the answer? A lot of lives may hinge upon it, because it's the key to our species doing the right thing at the right time.

 

5 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Can we start by agreeing on the fact that arguing Trump equals Hitler (or that Trump has Hitler tendencies, or any kind of this rhetoric) is absolutely moronic?

And it only comes from the left and/or people who just regurgitate what others have chewed on before them.

 

Imagine if I were to say Keir Starmer follows the Stalin handbook. Equally retarded.

I do think the Trump/Hitler comparisons are lazy, because there's numerous differences.

 

However, that should not in any way serve as distraction from the very real consequences of his actions, past, present and future. 

[leicsmac]

Also, none of this actually addresses the very real issue that the sentiment of self interest and Might Makes Right that drives people like Trump and his followers doesn't end anywhere good for them or for anyone else. 

 

It's in everyone's interest to find a way to address that. Sharpish, because the clock is ticking. 

[Sampson]

29 minutes ago, danny. said:

I can confidently say what doesn't win minds, going around shouting everyone is a racist, fascist or Hitler. That was one of the main reasons we ended up leaving the EU.

Nah, that’s complete revisionism imo. People kept making economic arguments for staying in the eu and were told “that’s project fear, you’re talking down to us and calling us idiots, we know what we’re voting for”, the mantra of leave voters was always that they knew what they were voting for, which I’m willing to take their word for, not that they were voting because people called them names, and if they were isn’t that the snowflake wokery they’re supposedly against?

 

Right wing populism 101 is basically to set up this catch 22 when they’re allowed to do everything they say people on the left and centre do and when the left or centre do the same thing they say “see that exactly why I’m voting for right wing populism”, you see it all the time especially with stuff like cancel culture and freedom of speech when they completely shut down and play the snowflake victim to anyone who doesn’t agree with them while claiming they’re trying to be cancelled themselves by snowflakes playing the victim.

Edited 5 January by Sampson

[worthosoriginals]

1 hour ago, danny. said:

I see it multiple times daily, along with fascist, racist and far/extreme right when people say anything to the right of the far left. I don’t think most people have a clue what they are even saying. 
 

Don't worry. Your darling farage will be along soon to put everything right  without troubles

[danny.]

1 hour ago, Sampson said:

“We want reasoned non-hyperbolic conversation” whilst simultaneously going on about people being “anything right of far left” and “ultra left weirdos” seems pretty disingenuous to me ngl.

Thats just been my experience talking to people (usually online), sentiments that are centre or even centre left are called right and far right by many on the left. You may have had different experiences but I can only go on what I have heard and seen.

I never said anything close to ultra left weirdos, so maybe that wasn't directed at me...

Edited 5 January by danny.

[danny.]

45 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Nah, that’s complete revisionism imo. People kept making economic arguments for staying in the eu and were told “that’s project fear, you’re talking down to us and calling us idiots, we know what we’re voting for”, the mantra of leave voters was always that they knew what they were voting for, which I’m willing to take their word for, not that they were voting because people called them names, and if they were isn’t that the snowflake wokery they’re supposedly against?

 

Right wing populism 101 is basically to set up this catch 22 when they’re allowed to do everything they say people on the left and centre do and when the left or centre do the same thing they say “see that exactly why I’m voting for right wing populism”, you see it all the time especially with stuff like cancel culture and freedom of speech when they completely shut down and play the snowflake victim to anyone who doesn’t agree with them while claiming they’re trying to be cancelled themselves by snowflakes playing the victim.

Nah, it happened. I was guilty of it myself (I was a pretty vocal Remainer), Leavers were largely called stupid, racists, xenophobes etc and it didn't make anyone listen or change their mind, they just stopped listening and doubled down on tribalism and existing beliefs. You haven't really replied to what I was arguing against or if you have you haven't really read it or you're just going off on a tangent. 

 

27 minutes ago, worthosoriginals said:

Don't worry. Your darling farage will be along soon to put everything right  without troubles

A great example of what I was saying earlier, just straight to some kind of weird personal attack with no substance or even bearing on reality.

[Tommy G]

6 hours ago, danny. said:

Nah, it happened. I was guilty of it myself (I was a pretty vocal Remainer), Leavers were largely called stupid, racists, xenophobes etc and it didn't make anyone listen or change their mind, they just stopped listening and doubled down on tribalism and existing beliefs. You haven't really replied to what I was arguing against or if you have you haven't really read it or you're just going off on a tangent. 

 

A great example of what I was saying earlier, just straight to some kind of weird personal attack with no substance or even bearing on reality.

Classic example of someone shoving Farage’s name out there because your view point isn’t left wing. 
 

News flash - not everyone who doesn’t agree with Starmer and his policies is some kind of Farage / Reform supporter. 
 

Such a lazy viewpoint by some people on here and I think Danny is right to defend himself when he’s quoted on stuff he didn’t even say!

Edited 6 January by Tommy G

[CornwallFox]

6 hours ago, danny. said:

Thats just been my experience talking to people (usually online), sentiments that are centre or even centre left are called right and far right by many on the left. You may have had different experiences but I can only go on what I have heard and seen.

I never said anything close to ultra left weirdos, so maybe that wasn't directed at me...

At the moment though there is a lot of discourse on the right that would have always been considered far right. Swathes of the reform platform are almost identical to BNP policies. But apparently nobody is supposed to talk about these things being far right. 

[CornwallFox]

4 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

Classic example of someone shoving Farage’s name out there because your view point isn’t left wing. 
 

News flash - not everyone who doesn’t agree with Starmer and his policies is some kind of Farage / Reform supporter. 
 

Such a lazy viewpoint by some people on here and I think Danny is right to edge defend himself when he’s quoted on stuff he didn’t even say!

This is probably fair.

Reform and the Tories imitating reform (let alone labour imitating them at times) has taken over what we see in the media so the political conversation ATM does feel very all or nothing.

[Tommy G]

1 minute ago, CornwallFox said:

This is probably fair.

Reform and the Tories imitating reform (let alone labour imitating them at times) has taken over what we see in the media so the political conversation ATM does feel very all or nothing.

There are a lot of people, certainly that I know, who are “right wing” but aren’t racist, Union Jack shagging or freedom of speech warriors. It’s frustrating that you get put in the far right bucket immediately if you aren’t in camp Starmer - it has got easier in the past 12 months because Starmer and Labour have become so universally unpopular. 

[leicsmac]

45 minutes ago, CornwallFox said:

This is probably fair.

Reform and the Tories imitating reform (let alone labour imitating them at times) has taken over what we see in the media so the political conversation ATM does feel very all or nothing.

 

40 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

There are a lot of people, certainly that I know, who are “right wing” but aren’t racist, Union Jack shagging or freedom of speech warriors. It’s frustrating that you get put in the far right bucket immediately if you aren’t in camp Starmer - it has got easier in the past 12 months because Starmer and Labour have become so universally unpopular. 

Also think it's something of a consequence of both the FPTP system (that tends to force pretty dichotomous outcomes) and modern society in general where online discourse is very tribal. 

 

The above being said, there are a few issues that are very "black and white" and where if you don't endorse one point of view, you are giving tacit support for the other and the consequences that result from it. Not everything has a large amount of nuance, some issues are very simple in their understanding, process and logical outcomes. 

[bovril]

10 hours ago, danny. said:

I can confidently say what doesn't win minds, going around shouting everyone is a racist, fascist or Hitler. That was one of the main reasons we ended up leaving the EU.

iirc communism and fascism was invoked much more by leavers in relation to the EU

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

iirc communism and fascism was invoked much more by leavers in relation to the EU

Your experience of anything will depend on what you let yourself be exposed to, or actively seek.

[danny.]

3 hours ago, Tommy G said:

Classic example of someone shoving Farage’s name out there because your view point isn’t left wing. 
 

News flash - not everyone who doesn’t agree with Starmer and his policies is some kind of Farage / Reform supporter. 
 

Such a lazy viewpoint by some people on here and I think Danny is right to defend himself when he’s quoted on stuff he didn’t even say!

Repeating what someone else said or told you to think is a lot easier than reading what people say and thinking about it. 

[danny.]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

iirc communism and fascism was invoked much more by leavers in relation to the EU

Not that I can remember or find anything through a Google search this morning. Loads of references to calling leavers fascists though. I never mentioned communism. 

[Finnegan]

12 hours ago, danny. said:

I see it multiple times daily, along with fascist, racist and far/extreme right when people say anything to the right of the far left. I don’t think most people have a clue what they are even saying. 
 

 

We aren't really still at a point where people outside the United States are still defending Donald Trump, are we? 

 

Playing Top Trumps (pun genuinely unintended but uncharacteristically enjoyable) with psychopathic rulers is pointless. The situational context is different for Pol Pot, Putin, Hitler, Stalin, all the way back to Nero. 

 

Is Pinochet more or less evil than Mugabe or Amin based on his basic stats? 

 

Quite obviously, Donald Trump doesn't have the same means or opportunity that some of history's most murderous dictators have had to kill millions and millions of people, commit genocide and invade an entire continent. The world is very different and he's the leader of a very different country. 

 

But I think by this point it's fairly evident that he has no conscience and is capable and motivated to do and say anything that will advance his own wealth and power. I don't think he's as profoundly ideological as Adolf Hitler but given Hitler is recent history's most prominent far right bogeyman and Donald Trump is increasingly a far right bogeyman, it's pretty obvious people are going to compare the two. 

 

It isn't meant to be a literal comparison, if you find yourself trying to "well actually" in defence of The Donald, you're either missing the point and a bit of obvious contextual hyperbole or you're... well. Of questionable intent. 

 

In your case Danny, I suspect the former. Unfortunately, the guy St Albans is quoting and replying to left the forum last time around after outting himself as quite resoundingly and uncomfortably bigoted in some of his personal beliefs. 

 

Lovely to see you back, Alex.