General News Thread

Voll Blau · 14 January

24 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

A more than cursory glance shows the reporting of what the Maccabi fans got up to in Amsterdam. I mean, all of the sources talking about it could be lying or exaggerating, but...

Add to that the local derby incident with Hapoel last November, and I'm not sure it's a massive stretch to say there might be an issue there.

Yep. People falling over themselves to get upset on behalf of people who they'd be applauding the police for banning from a football match if they were Polish, Italian, German or (especially) English.

This isn't exactly a rare occurrence in UEFA competitions. Plenty of away fans get banned by local authorities.

Edited 14 January by Voll Blau

Foxdiamond · 14 January

1 minute ago, Voll Blau said:

Yep. People falling over themselves to get upset on behalf of people who they'd be applauding the police for banning from a football match if they were Polish, Italian, German or (especially) England.

This isn't exactly a rare occurrence in UEFA competitions. Plenty of away fans get banned by local authorities.

Isn't the difference that politics was the issue rather than a common or garden hooligan problem?

leicsmac · 14 January

3 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

Well Mahmood has spoken and her comments are pretty damning. She says the police "overstated the threat posed by the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans, while understating the risk that was posed to the Israeli fans if they travelled to the area". She's also called the decision to ban Maccabi fans "grossly misguided" and said she no longer has confidence in Chief Constable Guildford. She also reckons she's going to restore the power of the home secretary to sack chief constables.

Which is all firstly fair to comment, and secondly does little to address the veracity of Maccabis recent history with unrest.

Like I said (or at least inferred) above, the ban certainly appears to be heavy-handed in this case but that doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist, that this was discriminatory all the way through and that local police departments shouldn't treat them similarly to other clubs with possibly problematic fan sections in the future.

1 minute ago, Voll Blau said:

Yep. People falling over themselves to get upset on behalf of people who they'd be applauding the police for banning from a football match if they were Polish, Italian, German or (especially) English.

This isn't exactly a rare occurrence in UEFA competitions. Plenty of away fans get banned by local authorities.

Hooligans are hooligans, if they've demonstrated that they are so. Where they're from and what their ideology is for doing it shouldn't be relevant.

ClaphamFox · 14 January

3 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Yep. People falling over themselves to get upset on behalf of people who they'd be applauding the police for banning from a football match if they were Polish, Italian, German or (especially) English.

This isn't exactly a rare occurrence in UEFA competitions. Plenty of away fans get banned by local authorities.

Ok then. Prior to the Maccabi ban, how many times has a UK police force banned fans of an overseas club from attending a UEFA game in this country? Your comment implies it is a regular occurrence, so I assume you can name a few examples.

And how on earth do you know how people who opposed this ban would react if fans of another club were banned? Have you asked them all?

Edited 14 January by ClaphamFox

Voll Blau · 14 January

26 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Isn't the difference that politics was the issue rather than a common or garden hooligan problem?

17 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

Ok then. Prior to the Maccabi Haifa ban, how many times has a UK police force banned fans of an overseas club from attending a UEFA game in this country? Your comment implies it is a regular occurrence, so I assume you can name a few examples.

And how on earth do you know how people who opposed this ban would react if fans of another club were banned? Have you asked them all?

Yes, I've asked them all. And they all agreed with me.

I said it's not uncommon across UEFA competitions, which it isn't. Authorities in Naples banned Eintracht Frankfurt not long ago, for example.

And, let's have it right, Maccabi's hools would have been thrilled to death at the prospect of a scrap with locals of any creed or colour in Birmingham. And yes, I asked them all. And they all agreed with me.

Stuntman_Mike · 14 January

4 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Yes, I've asked them all. And they all agreed with me.

I said it's not uncommon across UEFA competitions, which it isn't. Authorities in Naples banned Eintracht Frankfurt not long ago, for example.

And, let's have it right, Maccabi's hools would have been thrilled to death at the prospect of a scrap with locals of any creed or colour in Birmingham. And yes, I asked them all. And they all agreed with me.

Not sure that one helped

st albans fox · 14 January

the Birmingham thing was inevitable

anyone who had actually followed what happened in Amsterdam knew that the report was fabricated. Hence the decision SAG made was bound to be flawed.

are MTV fans angels ? Absolutely not.
are they any worse than lots of clubs across Europe who have not been banned attending matches here ? Absolutely not

WMP were in an unenviable position where they knew that Israeli fans in that area for the game would be a target for some unpleasant elements of the local community. Even if they bused in those who had travelled from the airport and straight back again afterwards, that would be a difficult target to protect. Add in that uk based Israelis would likely attend and they were stuck between a rock and a hard place.

hence - conformation bias and they grabbed anything they could to back up their position.

the basic point here is that the Israeli fans simply couldn’t be protected but that isn’t something that either the police or govt can admit. So the chief constable will be the fall guy here - I suggest some local politicians are just as culpable.

ClaphamFox · 14 January

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

Yes, I've asked them all. And they all agreed with me.

I said it's not uncommon across UEFA competitions, which it isn't. Authorities in Naples banned Eintracht Frankfurt not long ago, for example.

And, let's have it right, Maccabi's hools would have been thrilled to death at the prospect of a scrap with locals of any creed or colour in Birmingham. And yes, I asked them all. And they all agreed with me.

Prior to Maccabi fans being banned, no UK police force had banned a foreign club's fans from attending a UEFA game in this country. So the decision by West Midlands police was completely unprecedented in the UK. Are you seriously suggesting that Maccabi fans posed a level of risk that demonstrably exceeded that posed by the fans of every other club that has visited these islands in the past? If so I'd love to see your evidence.

The fact is—as we all know—that the decision had nothing whatsoever to do with the threat of hooliganism from Maccabi Haifa fans. What actually happened was that West Midlands police decided on the ban after speaking to Muslims in the area but were aware that they couldn’t admit to this, so came up with the ruse of trying to blame it on the Maccabi fans instead. And because there was no evidence to justify the decision, they made some up.

It would have been better if they’d have been honest from the start and admitted that they were terrified of threats made by Islamic extremists and were not confident in their ability to guarantee the safety of Maccabi fans. Admitting this would have made them look weak and would have no doubt attracted a lot of criticism, but at least it would have spared them the indignity of being exposed as liars. Now they’ve been shown to be weak and dishonest.

The chief constable will almost certainly lose his job over this, as he should. But there needs to measures put in place to ensure that no UK police force acts like this again. It was a very serious mistake.

Edited 14 January by ClaphamFox

leicsmac · 14 January

15 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

the Birmingham thing was inevitable

anyone who had actually followed what happened in Amsterdam knew that the report was fabricated. Hence the decision SAG made was bound to be flawed.

are MTV fans angels ? Absolutely not.
are they any worse than lots of clubs across Europe who have not been banned attending matches here ? Absolutely not

WMP were in an unenviable position where they knew that Israeli fans in that area for the game would be a target for some unpleasant elements of the local community. Even if they bused in those who had travelled from the airport and straight back again afterwards, that would be a difficult target to protect. Add in that uk based Israelis would likely attend and they were stuck between a rock and a hard place.

hence - conformation bias and they grabbed anything they could to back up their position.

the basic point here is that the Israeli fans simply couldn’t be protected but that isn’t something that either the police or govt can admit. So the chief constable will be the fall guy here - I suggest some local politicians are just as culpable.

8 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

Prior to Maccabi fans being banned, no UK police force had banned a foreign club's fans from attending a UEFA game in this country. So the decision by West Midlands police was completely unprecedented in the UK. Are you seriously suggesting that Maccabi fans posed a level of risk that demonstrably exceeded that posed by the fans of every other club that has visited these islands in the past? If so I'd love to see your evidence.

The fact is—as we all know—that the decision had nothing whatsoever to do with the threat of hooliganism from Maccabi Haifa fans. What actually happened was that West Midlands police decided on the ban after speaking to Muslims in the area but were aware that they couldn’t admit to this, so came up with the ruse of trying to blame it on the Maccabi fans instead. And because there was no evidence to justify the decision, they made some up.

It would have been better if they’d have been honest from the start and admitted that they were terrified of threats made by Islamic extremists and were not confident in their ability to guarantee the safety of Maccabi Haifa fans. Admitting this would have made them look weak and would have no doubt attracted a lot of criticism, but at least it would have spared them the indignity of being exposed as liars. Now they’ve been shown to be weak and dishonest.

The chief constable will almost certainly lose his job over this, as he should. But there needs to measures put in place to ensure that no UK police force acts like this again. It was a very serious mistake.

With respect, these posts make it seem like the Maccabi fans are entirely blameless (despite the wallpaper and cracks statement about them being "no angels"), in spite of empirical evidence to the contrary.

Yes, this was a screw up. But I'm also hoping some common ground can be found and hold both that belief and the belief that local fuzz need to be aware of problematic elements within the Maccabi fanbase and (this is the important part) act accordingly to address it when they next roll into town, rather than being afraid of doing so because of what's happened here.

ClaphamFox · 14 January

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

With respect, these posts make it seem like the Maccabi fans are entirely blameless (despite the wallpaper and cracks statement about them being "no angels"), in spite of empirical evidence to the contrary.

Yes, this was a screw up. But I'm also hoping some common ground can be found and hold both that belief and the belief that local fuzz need to be aware of problematic elements within the Maccabi fanbase and (this is the important part) act accordingly to address it when they next roll into town, rather than being afraid of doing so because of what's happened here.

The point is that every season foreign clubs visit this country for UEFA competitions and bring with them fanbases that have historically shown themselves to be 'no angels'—many with far worse track records than Maccabi fans. Yet nobody ever seems to talk about banning them. So why were Maccabi fans singled out? They were singled out because of the threat to their safety by elements of the local Muslim population. The police did not want to admit this, so they tried to pin it on the 'risk' the Israeli fans posed, and did so in a very disingenuous way. Hence the flak they're getting now.

Edited 14 January by ClaphamFox

leicsmac · 14 January

1 minute ago, ClaphamFox said:

The point is that every season foreign clubs visit this country for UEFA competitions and bring with them fanbases that have historically shown themselves to be 'no angels'—many with far worse track records than Maccabi Haifa fans. Yet nobody ever seems to talk about banning them. So why were Maccabi Haifa fans singled out? They were singled out because of the threat to their safety by elements of the local Muslim population. The police did not want to admit this, so they tried to pin it on the 'risk' the Israeli fans posed, and did so in a very disingenuous way. Hence the flak they're getting now.

Which is a point I haven't personally argued against.

My point, in return, is that, with all that in mind, police departments in the UK shouldn't let the above make them treat that fanbase with kid gloves the next time they have a tie against an UK team.

Innovindil · 14 January

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Which is a point I haven't personally argued against.

My point, in return, is that, with all that in mind, police departments in the UK shouldn't let the above make them treat that fanbase with kid gloves the next time they have a tie against an UK team.

Hopefully our police leaders use their own brains, like they are paid handsomely to do, and not some third rate AI

leicsmac · 14 January

Just now, Innovindil said:

Hopefully our police leaders use their own brains, like they are paid handsomely to do, and not some third rate AI

Ain't that the damn truth.

st albans fox · 14 January

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Which is a point I haven't personally argued against.

My point, in return, is that, with all that in mind, police departments in the UK shouldn't let the above make them treat that fanbase with kid gloves the next time they have a tie against an UK team.

They police the event as they should do. however, this event was ‘un policeable ‘ but no one could admit that for lots of reasons

Mac - many fans sing about horrible stuff. They don’t get banned for it.

@ClaphamFox - it was maccabi tel aviv

if the authorities don’t address the elephant in the room here then they leave space for people like farage to step in.

leicsmac · 14 January

Just now, st albans fox said:

They police the event as they should do. however, this event was ‘un policeable ‘ but no one could admit that for lots of reasons

Mac - many fans sing about horrible stuff. They don’t get banned for it.

@ClaphamFox - it was maccabi tel aviv

if the authorities don’t address the elephant in the room here then they leave space for people like farage to step in.

See above, think my reply there covers this. I will add though that (again like others), the actions of some Maccabi fans goes a little bit beyond some controversial songs.

kenny · 14 January

14 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Which is a point I haven't personally argued against.

My point, in return, is that, with all that in mind, police departments in the UK shouldn't let the above make them treat that fanbase with kid gloves the next time they have a tie against an UK team.

I think what's lost in this debate is how well our police dealt with the arseholes from Randers. They have a tough job to do, after all 15 of them got their asses kicked by Napoli fans, they showed Randers it was a one off.

Those families of women and small children couldn't deal with our mounted police and all they get is grief from UK fans about not being up to the job.

Foxdiamond · 14 January

1 hour ago, st albans fox said:

the Birmingham thing was inevitable

anyone who had actually followed what happened in Amsterdam knew that the report was fabricated. Hence the decision SAG made was bound to be flawed.

are MTV fans angels ? Absolutely not.
are they any worse than lots of clubs across Europe who have not been banned attending matches here ? Absolutely not

WMP were in an unenviable position where they knew that Israeli fans in that area for the game would be a target for some unpleasant elements of the local community. Even if they bused in those who had travelled from the airport and straight back again afterwards, that would be a difficult target to protect. Add in that uk based Israelis would likely attend and they were stuck between a rock and a hard place.

hence - conformation bias and they grabbed anything they could to back up their position.

the basic point here is that the Israeli fans simply couldn’t be protected but that isn’t something that either the police or govt can admit. So the chief constable will be the fall guy here - I suggest some local politicians are just as culpable.

This to me is the crux of the issue. Usually football hooligans are targeted by other football hooligans though of course innocent bystanders can be caught up. From my distant view it seems the threat was from the unsavoury elements in the area and beyond that had little to do with football

Spudulike · 14 January

The sacking of the West Midlands Police Constable should only be the start of removal of all of those involved in this debacle. It wasnt just his cover up and many others in senior positions need to be urgently investigated.

What a shamful performance by the member for Birmingham Perry Barr in the house this afternoon.

More exposure of UK Police forces to add to growing evidence of capture. Worrying.

Parafox · 14 January

Just cancel the game and the problem is solved.

It's not even an important match FFS.

leicsmac · 14 January

40 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

The sacking of the West Midlands Police Constable should only be the start of removal of all of those involved in this debacle. It wasnt just his cover up and many others in senior positions need to be urgently investigated.

What a shamful performance by the member for Birmingham Perry Barr in the house this afternoon.

More exposure of UK Police forces to add to growing evidence of capture. Worrying.

Well, that's certainly an interestingly conspiratorial way of framing the matter.

Spudulike · 14 January

24 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Well, that's certainly an interestingly conspiratorial way of framing the matter.

At what point is it no longer a conspiracy?

leicsmac · 14 January

2 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

At what point is it no longer a conspiracy?

I think what you mean is "at what point is it a confirmed conspiracy rather just Internet theory?" because if it becomes true it's still a conspiracy... but to answer the question, I reckon it hits that mark when there's statistical proof, that takes the form of empirical evidence from sources known and agreed to be trustworthy, that the party thought to benefit from the conspiracy are benefitting from it in a statistically significant fashion (eg. on a consistent repeated basis, over time).

Yes, that burden of proof is pretty high, but given the significance of what is being theorised, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

The Bear · 14 January

This is highly amusing.

Trump gives a speech at the Ford factory, and someone shouts out "pedophile protector" from the crowd. So Trump gives him the middle finger and mouths "fvck you" to him.

The White House defends Trump, and Ford have sacked the bloke who did it. But a GoFundMe has already raised $700,000 dollars for the sacked employee.

That's one way of getting a nice severance package!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62w8exgw1zo

Edited 14 January by The Bear

spacemunky · 15 January

6 hours ago, The Bear said:

This is highly amusing.

Trump gives a speech at the Ford factory, and someone shouts out "pedophile protector" from the crowd. So Trump gives him the middle finger and mouths "fvck you" to him.

The White House defends Trump, and Ford have sacked the bloke who did it. But a GoFundMe has already raised $700,000 dollars for the sacked employee.

That's one way of getting a nice severance package!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62w8exgw1zo

I'd donate to that!

leicsmac · 15 January

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7vdpy1l2vo

Interesting piece from the Beeb about a schism within the Afghan Taliban.

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