Absolute *** of our time Pt.MXXVI

[StanSP]

Not all terrorists are Muslims.

Not all Muslims are terrorists.

 

I don't see myself as an 'apologist'. I'm sure it won't be the first time I have to say that.

[Alf Bentley]

No of course, it's only the extremists, they make up a tiny percentage of muslims, the rest of them are all really nice. Some of my best friends are muslims. Christians commit atrocities too. You can't blame Muslims. All religions attract their fair share of nutjobs. Nothing unusual about Islam. Just the media only report when its a Muslim killing babies or chopping off people's heads in the street. When Christians do it the media doesn't mention it. Nothing wrong with Islam. Muslims are innocent. We should sympathise with them more, maybe give them more space in our country, give them free money and education, bend over backwards for them. Oh god please, they've done nothing wrong. I love Muslims! I hate white people! It's the whites what's to blame. We should punish ourselves. Ten, no twenty lashes, administered by a Muslim. I cant believe white people let this happen. Politicians should go to jail for not doing more to stop Muslims from continuously going on sick killing sprees. They can't help it! White people made them do it. It's just the media. White people kill kids with machine guns in shopping malls too. Happens all the time. Nothing wrong with Islam. Some of my best friends are Muslim. They are really nice. They haven't said anything about wanting to kill my kids so I know they're really good people.

 

There is a particular problem with Islamists (the minority with an extremist interpretation of Islam) at the moment. The causes of that problem need to be assessed and tackled - and the perpetrators of such outrages dealt with firmly under the law.

 

However, just about every religion, political viewpoint or race has indeed been used as an excuse for mayhem at some point:

- White Christian Irish & British killing one another in Ireland and England

- Black Hutus & Tutsis massacring one another in Rwanda

- Brown Indian Hindus, Sikhs & Muslims slaughtering one another (or being slaughtered by British imperialists)

- Serb Orthodox Christians massacring Bosnian Muslims in the Balkans

- Nazis gassing Jews in WW2

- Atheist communists slaughtering millions in the USSR & China

- Jewish Israelis and Muslim Palestinians committing atrocities against one another

- Islamists committing murderous outrages against British, American, Balian or Kenyan society

- Alienated American youths massacring people in American schools or shopping malls

- Recently there have even been Buddhist mobs conducting pogroms against the Muslim minority in Burma...Buddhists, ffs...what next, Lib Dem death squads and murderous pacifists?!?

 

I suppose the common factor is groups feeling that they can impose their own beliefs/status, which are more valid than the beliefs/status of others....that, and dealing with grievances by power, force or violence.

 

At the moment there's a particular problem with Islamists worldwide and a minority of youth attracted to their cause in this country. But they are indeed a small minority. In the future, that problem might again be caused by Christian fundamentalists or atheists, by racists, leftists or environmentalists, by English, Irish, Poles or Pakistanis

 

Tolerance of difference....negotiation/compromise over differences....but no tolerance of intolerance!

[Mark_w]

No of course, it's only the extremists, they make up a tiny percentage of muslims, the rest of them are all really nice. Some of my best friends are muslims. Christians commit atrocities too. You can't blame Muslims. All religions attract their fair share of nutjobs. Nothing unusual about Islam. Just the media only report when its a Muslim killing babies or chopping off people's heads in the street. When Christians do it the media doesn't mention it. Nothing wrong with Islam. Muslims are innocent. We should sympathise with them more, maybe give them more space in our country, give them free money and education, bend over backwards for them. Oh god please, they've done nothing wrong. I love Muslims! I hate white people! It's the whites what's to blame. We should punish ourselves. Ten, no twenty lashes, administered by a Muslim. I cant believe white people let this happen. Politicians should go to jail for not doing more to stop Muslims from continuously going on sick killing sprees. They can't help it! White people made them do it. It's just the media. White people kill kids with machine guns in shopping malls too. Happens all the time. Nothing wrong with Islam. Some of my best friends are Muslim. They are really nice. They haven't said anything about wanting to kill my kids so I know they're really good people.

 

This thread is supposed to be ABOUT 'absolute ***** of our time', not for them. You're not supposed to post your dribble in here.

[purpleronnie]

Quite scary thinking how a Mumbai style attack could easily happen in the UK  anywhere.

[bovril]

 

Quite scary thinking how a Mumbai style attack could easily happen in the UK  anywhere.

 

 

True.

[Guest MattP]

Of course all Muslims aren't terrorists.

Sunni Muslims do seem to produce the most fcuked up people on the planet though, its actually hard to think the last time we went a few days without watching a group representing it massacring people.

A Mumbai style attack will happen here one day, no doubt.

For some strange reason we allow the Madrassas here to teach what they want, we allow Mosques like the one in East London to preach hatred every week that produces people like Leithwaite etc etc and we are scared to death to tackle it.

The only people who can stop it is the moderate Islamic community and from my experience down there they don't seem to want to. 9 months and counting now since the (no homosexuality/alcohol stickers) local rules were enforced.

I still find so so bizarre how a lot of atheists spendttheir life mocking every other faith but will absolutely defend Islam to the hilt.

It's never going to change now but inviting this cult on mass onto on shores will go down as the most stupid decision our politicians every made, just educate yourself by looking at every other country in the World that has taken Sunni Muslims in on mass.

[Alf Bentley]

Of course all Muslims aren't terrorists. [...]

For some strange reason we allow the Madrassas here to teach what they want, we allow Mosques like the one in East London to preach hatred every week that produces people like Leithwaite etc etc and we are scared to death to tackle it.

The only people who can stop it is the moderate Islamic community and from my experience down there they don't seem to want to. 9 months and counting now since the (no homosexuality/alcohol stickers) local rules were enforced.

I still find so so bizarre how a lot of atheists spendttheir life mocking every other faith but will absolutely defend Islam to the hilt. [...]

 

It's not just that "all Muslims aren't terrorists", it's that, like any community, the overwhelming majority are not terrorists. According to the City Council's figures from the 2011 census, there are 61,440 Muslims in Leicester (surprised me it was that high, I must admit). Whatever you or I might think of their views, the vast majority of those 61,440 are clearly living peaceful lives (Council link: http://www.leicester.gov.uk/your-council-services/council-and-democracy/city-statistics/religion/)

 

All schools should have a certain core curriculum, then freedom to choose around that - but not to promote hatred or intolerance. I'd not heard about these Muslim anti-gay or anti-booze crusades, but the East London Mosque has unequivocally condemned the individuals involved (1st link), confirmed by the BBC (2nd link), while a 3rd link suggests that these were the actions of the banned Al-Muhajiroun group / Muslims against Crusaders.  http://archive.eastlondonmosque.org.uk/news/390; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21142148; http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/01/21/east-london-citizens-abused-by-muslim-gang-shouting-bloody-fag/

Most Muslims (and some Christians - and a few atheists) oppose homosexuality and alcohol, but so long as it is just their personal code and they don't abuse or discriminate against others, they're entitled to hold their misguided views!

 

Presumably, you didn't hear about that, Matt? You don't express the frothing bile of Moosebreath, but if you're seeking to make an honest contribution, rather than to subtlely foment mistrust, you should check your facts or produce evidence before posting that the E. London Mosque "is preaching hatred", "local rules" are attacking homosexuality/alcohol and that moderate London Muslims don't want to confront extremists....all of which are contradicted by the Mosque's statement and other reports.

 

Atheists (and I am one) shouldn't spend their lives mocking anyone. They should challenge religious bigotry (Christian, Muslim or whatever) but should recognise that religion does a lot of good, as well as a lot of harm - and atheists are also capable of harm.

[Steven]

I still find so so bizarre how a lot of atheists spend their life mocking every other faith but will absolutely defend Islam to the hilt.

 

I am sure all devout atheists like me mock all forms of religion.

[MooseBreath]

Occasional condemnation from the odd obscure Muslim community group leader doesn't mean that problems don't exist or that the community are really bothered. When I start to see action on a large scale then I might start to believe that these so called moderate Muslims are as against these atrocities as they should be. Until then, a few "ooh we don't agree with that, honest" statements are hardly going to redress the balance when every other day we're seeing Muslims committing abysmal crimes all over the world.

Edited 24 September 2013 by MooseBreath

[Steven]

Occasional condemnation from the odd obscure Muslim community group leader doesn't mean that problems don't exist or that the community are really bothered. When I start to see action on a large scale then I might start to believe that these so called moderate Muslims are as against these atrocities as they should be. Until then, a few "ooh we don't agree with that, honest" statements are hardly going to redress the balance when every other day we're seeing Muslims committing abysmal crimes all over the world.

Don't hold your breath. Have you seen widespread condemnation of Priests touching up small boys by Catholics? To challenge the behaviour of other believers is to undermine the faith system of all believers.

[Guest MattP]

It's not just that "all Muslims aren't terrorists", it's that, like any community, the overwhelming majority are not terrorists. According to the City Council's figures from the 2011 census, there are 61,440 Muslims in Leicester (surprised me it was that high, I must admit). Whatever you or I might think of their views, the vast majority of those 61,440 are clearly living peaceful lives (Council link: http://www.leicester.gov.uk/your-council-services/council-and-democracy/city-statistics/religion/)

 

All schools should have a certain core curriculum, then freedom to choose around that - but not to promote hatred or intolerance. I'd not heard about these Muslim anti-gay or anti-booze crusades, but the East London Mosque has unequivocally condemned the individuals involved (1st link), confirmed by the BBC (2nd link), while a 3rd link suggests that these were the actions of the banned Al-Muhajiroun group / Muslims against Crusaders.  http://archive.eastlondonmosque.org.uk/news/390; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21142148; http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/01/21/east-london-citizens-abused-by-muslim-gang-shouting-bloody-fag/

Most Muslims (and some Christians - and a few atheists) oppose homosexuality and alcohol, but so long as it is just their personal code and they don't abuse or discriminate against others, they're entitled to hold their misguided views!

 

Presumably, you didn't hear about that, Matt? You don't express the frothing bile of Moosebreath, but if you're seeking to make an honest contribution, rather than to subtlely foment mistrust, you should check your facts or produce evidence before posting that the E. London Mosque "is preaching hatred", "local rules" are attacking homosexuality/alcohol and that moderate London Muslims don't want to confront extremists....all of which are contradicted by the Mosque's statement and other reports.

 

Atheists (and I am one) shouldn't spend their lives mocking anyone. They should challenge religious bigotry (Christian, Muslim or whatever) but should recognise that religion does a lot of good, as well as a lot of harm - and atheists are also capable of harm.

 

Good post Alf. I hadn't seen the links and it's excellent they have tried to remove this, I can only go from personal experience though of being there and they haven't come to an abrupt end at all, I've seen them on numerous occasions around that area on over the last couple of years.

 

Actions speak louder than words and we need more of that from these self appoiinted groups, I remember the Saturday after the Lee Rigby murder about 200 Nigerians marched through Woolwich saying not in our name, wouldn't it have been great to see the same from the local mosque?

 

We've all seen the hatred being spewed out in a lot of the Madrassers on programs like Panarama and Dispatches and these places are still allowed to carry on, when they start to shut these down and prosecute the people involved I'll start to believe the Muslim community really wants to tackle it's problems, a few half arsed paragraphs isn't really cutting it at the minute.

[Alf Bentley]

I am sure all devout atheists like me mock all forms of religion.

 

That seems to be the dominant stance among younger atheists. As a fellow atheist, I disagree. We should argue our case, but what is mocking people going to achieve except create divisions and close minds? Maybe I'm just a soft old fart!

It does annoy me, though, when beliefs based on "faith" are given a higher status than beliefs based on reason.

 

But religions aren't only about factual beliefs disproved by science or about corrupt hierarchies (though that's a big part of them). They also encourage personally admirable and socially beneficial attitudes: "don't pass by on the other side when someone's in trouble"; "don't criticise the speck of dust in someone else's eye till you've sorted out the plank in your own"; "Do unto others as you'd have them do to you"; "Be humble"; "Don't screw people for loads of interest" etc. Some apply them, others don't.

 

One of our neighbours is a devout Catholic - and a Tory into the bargain - but she's a genuinely caring, tolerant woman, always looking to be helpful. I can think of some shallow, grasping, hypocritical atheists for whom I've got a lot less respect!

[Alf Bentley]

Good post Alf. I hadn't seen the links and it's excellent they have tried to remove this, I can only go from personal experience though of being there and they haven't come to an abrupt end at all, I've seen them on numerous occasions around that area on over the last couple of years.

 

Actions speak louder than words and we need more of that from these self appoiinted groups, I remember the Saturday after the Lee Rigby murder about 200 Nigerians marched through Woolwich saying not in our name, wouldn't it have been great to see the same from the local mosque?

 

We've all seen the hatred being spewed out in a lot of the Madrassers on programs like Panarama and Dispatches and these places are still allowed to carry on, when they start to shut these down and prosecute the people involved I'll start to believe the Muslim community really wants to tackle it's problems, a few half arsed paragraphs isn't really cutting it at the minute.

 

I don't have the knowledge of London to say whether they're doing enough there - though I noticed that, in the wake of the recent murders, the Leicester mosque had a memorial service that included the lad who was stabbed (not a Muslim, I presume) and that was open to all, which was a good gesture of cross-community openness.

 

It's always difficult for any religious or political group to control fanatical splinter groups. Beyond disowning their actions, what can they do? Expel them, maybe, but it might be more beneficial to be able to keep an eye on them. Yes, maybe they could have organised a march, but it's not as clear cut as when someone has been brutally murdered - most Muslims would agree that drinking and homosexuality are wrong, even if they didn't like the confrontational approach of the extremists. How many UKIP members would march to oppose UKIP extremists who had been verbally abusive to immigrants or MEPs?

 

You've got a stronger point about the madrassas. Some are fine, I'm sure, but local mosques / Islamic authorities should come down hard on any that are teaching extremism - and the police/CPS should be ready to bring charges for promoting hatred, too.

[Guest MattP]

I don't have the knowledge of London to say whether they're doing enough there - though I noticed that, in the wake of the recent murders, the Leicester mosque had a memorial service that included the lad who was stabbed (not a Muslim, I presume) and that was open to all, which was a good gesture of cross-community openness.

 

It's always difficult for any religious or political group to control fanatical splinter groups. Beyond disowning their actions, what can they do? Expel them, maybe, but it might be more beneficial to be able to keep an eye on them. Yes, maybe they could have organised a march, but it's not as clear cut as when someone has been brutally murdered - most Muslims would agree that drinking and homosexuality are wrong, even if they didn't like the confrontational approach of the extremists. How many UKIP members would march to oppose UKIP extremists who had been verbally abusive to immigrants or MEPs?

 

You've got a stronger point about the madrassas. Some are fine, I'm sure, but local mosques / Islamic authorities should come down hard on any that are teaching extremism - and the police/CPS should be ready to bring charges for promoting hatred, too.

 

I wouldn't march to to oppose UKIP extremists being abusive, I would march, fight and die to oppose UKIP extremists if they started chopping off the heads of innocent people in broad daylight or blowing up the Underground.

 

One of the lines you have mentioned is exactly why we will and have so many problems.

 

most Muslims would agree that drinking and homosexuality are wrong

 

I'm just finding it absolutely impossible to ever see Islam being able to go hand in hand with a tolerant Western society. I do hope I'm wrong, I really do.

Edited 24 September 2013 by MattP

[Alf Bentley]

I wouldn't march to to oppose UKIP extremists being abusive, I would march, fight and die to oppose UKIP extremists if they started chopping off the heads of innocent people in broad daylight or blowing up the Underground.

 

One of the lines you have mentioned is exactly why we will and have so many problems.

 

"most Muslims would agree that drinking and homosexuality are wrong"

 

I'm just finding it absolutely impossible to ever see Islam being able to go hand in hand with a tolerant Western society. I do hope I'm wrong, I really do.

 

I may have misunderstood your point re. protest marches. You quoted the Nigerians who'd marched to protest against the Rigby killing, and I thought you were saying that the E. London Muslims should have had done likewise re. the anti-gay/booze patrols. Re-reading your comment, I suspect you were saying that the mosque should have organised a protest march disassociating themselves from the Rigby killing. If so and if they didn't do that, I agree with you. Can't remember what they did or didn't do.

 

Many Christians (and others) would also see homosexuality as immoral and the stricter sects would be anti-booze. I disagree with them - and with Muslims - on both points, but don't see a problem with it, providing that it is just how they choose to live their own lives. It does become a problem if extremists start confrontational anti-gay/booze patrols, or if individual Muslims or Christians discriminate against gay people or boozers in employment, business or whatever. The law would need to be enforced against that.

 

Hopefully, give it a generation, and the children of first-generation immigrants will become a bit more tolerant through contact with non-Muslims....another reason to ban all faith schools, to discourage segregation! Also makes promoting contact between different communities very important - neither multiculturalism nor forced assimilation, but "inter-culturalism" / mutual tolerance.

[Harry - LCFC]

It's not that different to what Western Christians did hundreds of years ago - murdered other people for differences in lifestyle. That doesn't happen anymore because people are educated here. It still happens over there because people are not.

 

I don't think you can blame any one religion for this kind of savage behaviour because all of them have inspired people to do this at some point but it's the lack of education that leads people to think they should 'defend' their beliefs in this way.

 

I don't blame Islam in Kenya specifically, I blame a lack of development in the country.

[Guest MattP]

It's not that different to what Western Christians did hundreds of years ago - murdered other people for differences in lifestyle. That doesn't happen anymore because people are educated here. It still happens over there because people are not.

 

I don't think you can blame any one religion for this kind of savage behaviour because all of them have inspired people to do this at some point but it's the lack of education that leads people to think they should 'defend' their beliefs in this way.

 

That's partly my point, we have spent a few hundred years removing that from our society, surely we should be trying to keep it that way?

 

 

Many Christians (and others) would also see homosexuality as immoral and the stricter sects would be anti-booze. I disagree with them - and with Muslims - on both points, but don't see a problem with it, providing that it is just how they choose to live their own lives. It does become a problem if extremists start confrontational anti-gay/booze patrols, or if individual Muslims or Christians discriminate against gay people or boozers in employment, business or whatever. The law would need to be enforced against that.

 

Hopefully, give it a generation, and the children of first-generation immigrants will become a bit more tolerant through contact with non-Muslims....another reason to ban all faith schools, to discourage segregation! Also makes promoting contact between different communities very important - neither multiculturalism nor forced assimilation, but "inter-culturalism" / mutual tolerance.

 

Well the law won't be used against Islamic venues will it, do you really think we'll ever see a gay wedding in a Mosque? Do you really think a camp guy would get a job at a Islamic solicitors, of course that's not going to happen and no laws will change that.

 

Think it's hopeful at best to say give it a generation when you still have so many religious schools about, they won't be teaching about tolerance of these people, again it's another argument but community integration is pretty hard when things most people do together to socialise can't be done by these people, ie gambling, drinking, going for breakfast, having a dog and so on etc etc I only come into contact with them if I play cricket or when I worked with them and even that was just whilst you were at it, no social gathering would go with it afterwards.

 

On a seperate point how have so many Somalis actually ended up here? There are 400,000 of them that are in Europe and 250,000 have ended up in Britain? That doesn't seem a very even spread which should be expected given I imagine the vast majority are refugees?

 

How does that actually happen given we are the furthest away from the small West African coastal resort apart from Iceland? Any Ideas?

Edited 24 September 2013 by MattP

[Harry - LCFC]

That's partly my point, we have spent a few hundred years removing that from our society, surely we should be trying to keep it that way?

 

Yes, we should be tougher on 'big religion' where people think their faith should be used as a blueprint for how we lives our lives. I'm quite happy for individuals to have a more private faith where they feel comforted by believing in a God as long as they don't try to influence others with it.

 

I'd support a harder stance on grossly unacceptable behaviour but people will willingly drop these abhorrent ideas they get from religion if they're better educated.

[Guest MattP]

Yes, we should be tougher on 'big religion' where people think their faith should be used as a blueprint for how we lives our lives. I'm quite happy for individuals to have a more private faith where they feel comforted by believing in a God as long as they don't try to influence others with it.

 

I'd support a harder stance on grossly unacceptable behaviour but people will willingly drop these abhorrent ideas they get from religion if they're better educated.

 

I'd like to make all religion private, I get annoyed at not being able to walk near the clock centre without someone trying to get you to read their religious text.

 

Better education is a must, but we have no chance of that whilst faith schools are allowed to teach what they want.

[Alf Bentley]

Well the law won't be used against Islamic venues will it, do you really think we'll ever see a gay wedding in a Mosque? Do you really think a camp guy would get a job at a Islamic solicitors, of course that's not going to happen and no laws will change that.

 

Think it's hopeful at best to say give it a generation when you still have so many religious schools about, they won't be teaching about tolerance of these people, again it's another argument but community integration is pretty hard when things most people do together to socialise can't be done by these people, ie gambling, drinking, going for breakfast, having a dog and so on etc etc I only come into contact with them if I play cricket or when I worked with them and even that was just whilst you were at it, no social gathering would go with it afterwards.

 

On a seperate point how have so many Somalis actually ended up here? There are 400,000 of them that are in Europe and 250,000 have ended up in Britain? That doesn't seem a very even spread which should be expected given I imagine the vast majority are refugees?

 

How does that actually happen given we are the furthest away from the small West African coastal resort apart from Iceland? Any Ideas?

 

Must work, but quickly...

 

I'm sure there won't be gay marriages at mosques - or at most churches. An openly gay bloke currently wouldn't get a job at an orthodox Muslim workplace (or at many overtly Christian workplaces) and probably wouldn't want one. Would he get one at UKIP HQ, I wonder? I certainly wouldn't get a job at Tory HQ or you at Labour HQ, and rightly so, in both cases, as we wouldn't be committed to the ethos of the employer.....Where common sense becomes discrimination is a grey area...

 

Maybe Muslims will integrate more with time, maybe not. Just about every other immigrant group has (maybe not Orthodox Jews?), even if they keep some of their distinctive culture/beliefs. Certainly, getting rid of all faith schools (Muslim, Christian or whatever) would help. Kids should be taught about different beliefs and values (religious, humanist, political, philosophical), not indoctrinated in one. My daughter knows that I'm an atheist lefty, but I actively try to encourage her to think for herself, trying to be neutral about the beliefs of Christians, Tories etc - even pointing out their positives (well, I might draw the line at Tories!).

 

I've no idea whether your figure for Somalis is correct (source?); if so, it is surprising. I was astonished to see that the Muslim population of Leicester has doubled between the 2001 & 2011 censuses (source: city council site, quoting census data). I'd be interested to know what proportion came from where? Gujarati Indian Muslims? 2nd generation born here? Somalis? Others? 

Edited 25 September 2013 by Sir Alf Bentley

[Rincewind]

I'm not religious but all the Muslims I have come into contact with or heard about within the circles I move have been decent people and willing to work alongside other faith groups. Look at the drop in centres that are around the centre set up to provide meals for vulnerable people.

TBH I don't see them as good Muslims just good people.If you take out all the bad and fantasy aspects of religion killings prejudice homophobia slavery miracles invisible friend you are left with a decent code on how to live your life and a very thin holy book.

Saw a quote which went something like, If there is no Heaven then I will be happy that I have led a good life, If there is I hope that if there is a God he will be benevolent enough to appreciate how I have lived my life and allow me in despite not believing.

[MooseBreath]

It's not that different to what Western Christians did hundreds of years ago - murdered other people for differences in lifestyle. That doesn't happen anymore because people are educated here. It still happens over there because people are not.

I don't think you can blame any one religion for this kind of savage behaviour because all of them have inspired people to do this at some point but it's the lack of education that leads people to think they should 'defend' their beliefs in this way.

I don't blame Islam in Kenya specifically, I blame a lack of development in the country.

You can't blame Kenyan or Somalian education when some of the perpetrators are western born and bred. Examples of western educated terrorists abound, so I don't really agree that improving education is the answer.

[Guest MattP]

I've no idea whether your figure for Somalis is correct (source?); if so, it is surprising. I was astonished to see that the Muslim population of Leicester has doubled between the 2001 & 2011 censuses (source: city council site, quoting census data). I'd be interested to know what proportion came from where? Gujarati Indian Muslims? 2nd generation born here? Somalis? Others? 

 

The Times yesterday.

 

States here "between 100,000-200,000" - though let's face it after ten years of Labour and what was revealed by their own people about they got upto regarding immigration the figure could be anything in reality.

 

http://www.iom.int/cms/en/sites/iom/home/news-and-views/press-briefing-notes/pbn-2013/pbn-listing/iom-maps-uk-diasporas-to-engage.html

You can't blame Kenyan or Somalian education when some of the perpetrators are western born and bred.

 

Great point.

 

At least these guys (and gals) are actually going out there though rather than committing the massacres here.

[Alf Bentley]

You can't blame Kenyan or Somalian education when some of the perpetrators are western born and bred. Examples of western educated terrorists abound, so I don't really agree that improving education is the answer.

 

I agree with this point. A broad and balanced education should help (partly why I oppose faith schools), as should meaningful contact with other racial/religious groups.

 

However, that's not enough. Young people, in particular, want a role and a status in society. Membership of extremist / terrorist groups can offer that to some people. Some will mature and move on, but if they are a bit narrow / obsessive in nature and either easily led or clever, but immoral or self-focussed, they may be in it long-term. We've seen that right back to groups like the IRA, UDA or Baader-Meinhof, well before the jihadist surge.

 

In the 90s, I spent a few months in the Spanish Basque Country and saw how ETA preyed on the young unemployed (of whom there were plenty, then as now), offering them a purpose and a status that would "earn them respect". I don't know how you deal with that, beyond helping young people to get into work/training and to pursue beneficial or harmless leisure activities (community work, sport, DJing, whatever), as society, communities and generations are more fragmented these days... 

[Alf Bentley]

The Times yesterday.

 

States here "between 100,000-200,000" - though let's face it after ten years of Labour and what was revealed by their own people about they got upto regarding immigration the figure could be anything in reality.

 

http://www.iom.int/cms/en/sites/iom/home/news-and-views/press-briefing-notes/pbn-2013/pbn-listing/iom-maps-uk-diasporas-to-engage.html

 

The 2011 census (i.e. politically neutral source, after Labour had left govt) reports that, in England & Wales, there were 86,000 people who spoke Somali as their main language: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_297002.pdf

 

That doesn't include the under-3s, Scotland/N.Ireland or people who failed to complete the census (though I think they might adjust data to allow for the latter). That suggests the true figure may well be over 100,000, but probably nowhere near 200,000....still a lot, even if it is a small percentage of the population (0.2% of population)