England Vs Ukraine

[Edmund]

I wouldn't deny them the right to compete, that's the last thing I'd suggest. Your FA Cup analogy is a good one though as it is close to what I would suggest is a good solution. We don't deny the likes of Hinckley, Kingstonian et al the chance to compete. What we do is enter them at an earlier stage of the competition such as the preliminary qualifiers and give them a chance of fighting through to the third round, where they would have a chance of meeting Manchester United or Liverpool. Some don't make it. That's because they haven't been good enough against teams of similar stature, and if they aren't good enough against them, how will they fare against the giants of the game? Those that do have earned their right to compete, rather than being awarded it on the basis that it's simply eleven men who should be considered equal.

Fair point, but it easy to differentiate teams by leagues. How do you differentiate different nations from one another and who they should be playing?

[Guest Bilo]

That was my idea.

Finners seems to be adamant that Andorra will nick a cheeky away win in Paris at some point in the next two years.

Just noticed that having read through the thread.

I wan't trying to plagiarise, honest.

[Guest Bilo]

Fair point, but it easy to differentiate teams by leagues. How do you differentiate different nations from one another and who they should be playing?

In much the same way that UEFA determines seedings now. By FIFA ranking and performance in the previous set of qualifiers. It's doable to put teams into something resembling 'leagues' because UEFA already do so. When you see teams drawn from Pot 1, Pot 2 etc, that's based on the factors I've mentioned. I would suggest that all those from the bottom pot should be placed in a preliminary group with the top two qualifying for the next stage.

[Finnegan]

No I'm not directly comparing Andorra and Wales but I understand where they're coming from far more than any of you do, which is why I get so heated whenever this argument comes up.

I, like them, are resigned to the fact that my country will likely never qualify for a major tournament. I, like them, as resigned to having to take what joys I can out of seeing my team play. I didn't give a fuck whether we beat Germany or not tonight and truth be told I wouldn't even care if we go and lose to Azerbaijan.

But I was damn proud when those boys went out and battled for seventy odd minutes to keep the Germans at bay when we went over there. We made one of the best teams in the world look like absolute mugs. For over an hour they came at us and all that beat us was a moment of absolute momentary genius (take a bow, Piotr Trochowski, it was truly special.)

We didn't qualify in '04 (same as every other year I've spent money to go down) though I admit it was close. Our failure to qualify meant beating Italy was absolutely meaningless, but do I give a shit? Hell no. It was the single greatest moment of my sporting life - utterly trumped two Grand Slams, two League Cups and a number of promotions.

And should Lichenstein ever nab some fluke win against the Swiss or the Swedes or some other nation trotting in there unexpectant then I guarantee absolute bedlum.

Yes, these people are resigned to defeat (much the same as the Cheltenham fans that came here and were so revered a few weeks ago) but that won't stop them showing up and enjoying the opportunity to witness a higher level of sport on their home soil and it won't stop them taking pride in every clearance off the line, every time they come close and every minute they force by with the score at 0 - 0. There is so, so, so much you take for granted being an England (and even Leicester) fan.

That said. My absolute, number one problem with the constant suggestions to remove these teams? The fact nobody can really come up with a decent enough answer why. Other than some miserable, arrogant grumble about how it's one extra game the players (on their £1m contracts) have to play or how it's a waste of time. Well boo hoo. Football, especially international football, is about more than sport. It's about embracing opportunity and it's about making all nations equal in their opportunities around the world. And the day they take that away from the so-called minows will be the day I turn my back on the game.

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

In much the same way that UEFA determines seedings now. By FIFA ranking and performance in the previous set of qualifiers. It's doable to put teams into something resembling 'leagues' because UEFA already do so. When you see teams drawn from Pot 1, Pot 2 etc, that's based on the factors I've mentioned. I would suggest that all those from the bottom pot should be placed in a preliminary group with the top two qualifying for the next stage.

FIFA rankings are worked out in a weird fashion though.

[Finnegan]

FIFA rankings are worked out in a weird fashion though.

That I do agree with.

It's thing #25295323 that football can learn from rugby.

[Guest Bilo]

FIFA rankings are worked out in a weird fashion though.

It has become a little more logical now though, we no longer see teams like Mexico as top 10 regulars, when they clearly aren't. The teams from the bottom pot I mentioned include the following:

Liechtenstein

Estonia

Malta

Luxembourg

Montenegro

Andorra

Faroe Islands

San Marino

Two groups of four, with the group winners going through to the qualifiers proper might work.

[Finnegan]

It has become a little more logical now though, we no longer see teams like Mexico as top 10 regulars, when they clearly aren't. The teams from the bottom pot I mentioned include the following:

Liechtenstein

Estonia

Malta

Luxembourg

Montenegro

Andorra

Faroe Islands

San Marino

Two groups of four, with the group winners going through to the qualifiers proper might work.

Montenegro have some decent players, they're only there because they're newly formed.

But again I ask the question... why? What on Earth makes you think this is necessary?

[Guest Bilo]

Montenegro have some decent players, they're only there because they're newly formed.

But again I ask the question... why? What on Earth makes you think this is necessary?

I take your point on Montenegro, they are something of a unique situation and would qualify easily. They would probably need to be looked at.

I've used the example of FA Cup, Champions League etc to state that entering teams at different stages of the competition according to their ability works. We don't see the champions of Andorra and Kazakhstan playing Barcelona and Manchester United because they have to qualify to do so. We don't see the likes of Harrogate Railway being drawn against Chelsea in the third round of the FA Cup for the same reason. In club football, if all eligible teams were to be entered at the same time, it would cause fixture chaos. With so many new nations in Europe since the qualifying system was devised (Yugoslavia alone has been replaced by five nations without mentioning the break-up of the USSR) groups now take nearly eighteen months to complete. Surely we should think about asking international teams to earn the right to compete in the same way we ask club teams to do so.

[shen]

That said. My absolute, number one problem with the constant suggestions to remove these teams? The fact nobody can really come up with a decent enough answer why. Other than some miserable, arrogant grumble about how it's one extra game the players (on their £1m contracts) have to play or how it's a waste of time. Well boo hoo. Football, especially international football, is about more than sport. It's about embracing opportunity and it's about making all nations equal in their opportunities around the world. And the day they take that away from the so-called minows will be the day I turn my back on the game.

So why haven't you yet, then? The Oceania qualifying setup has a preliminary round, and New Zealand first entered in the second round. Same thing in North and Central American group, with USA, Mexico, Jamaica, T&T etc. first entered in the second round. Even in the Asian and African group they have preliminaries. It's only in Europe and Latin America that all countries are on 'equal' footing...

[Finnegan]

So why haven't you yet, then? The Oceania qualifying setup has a preliminary round, and New Zealand first entered in the second round. Same thing in North and Central American group, with USA, Mexico, Jamaica, T&T etc. first entered in the second round. Even in the Asian and African group they have preliminaries. It's only in Europe and Latin America that all countries are on 'equal' footing...

True enough - but typically speaking Europe and South America are the main bastions of football and it's here it garners amongst the most passion and interest, that and my argument is as applicable to the Euros as to the World Cup.

And using the domestic example as a direct model for what should be done on the international scene is flawed due to the simply vaster numbers of teams on that stage. I only brought it up as a moral example and ultimately possibly not my best argument ever. We don't have the same problem for internationals, we don't have overcrowding of teams forming too many groups and not enough time to play these fixtures.

Else why would we be throwing in the extra friendlies here there and everywhere?

There isn't a problem here. Just a bunch of fans making the somewhat elitist assumption that these other countries would be better served (or would better serve) by being elsewhere. When Andorra, Lichenstein, Luxemburg and co' speak up and campaign for their removal from the EUROs or WC qualifying then I might see your point. The fact that they're not exactly frantically fighting for that sort of makes mine.

[Alexikokopops]

I'm just I'm just Finners from the block

[Finnegan]

I'm just I'm just Finners from the block

My ass is that good.

[Uncle Albert]

Gerrard on the left is a waste. Retire now Stevie.

[Joe.]

I was going to start a thread on this but since it's in here already, what the hell.

Finners, San Marino are a joke of a national football team. It's so pointless to play them it's actually embarassing. There are special tournaments for small island teams, so why don't they play in them instead?

They are never going to improve, and the fact that they've never won a competetive game speaks volumes for this. They've only ever won one game ever for god sake and that was in a friendly against Lichtenstein. How often do they get beaten in excess of 3 or 4 goals, even against so-called lesser nations?

The World Cup qualifying is a competetive event, and San Marino being part of it makes it somewhat of a mockery. Let's be honest, they're only good for the comedy value.

[Fox92]

Not a bad performance, generally boring in some cases, and David Beckham coming on – disgrace.

Why has he gained more caps that Bobby Moore Moore played 90 minutes all the time when Beckham comes on for 10/20 minutes and gains one

He did nothing either apart from take a poor free kick and corner and if everyone bullies Oakley’s, Beckhams are worse! We gained nothing on the right when he replaced Lennon.

In George Bests’ words: Beckham cannot tackle, head the ball, kick it with his left for and generally doesn’t score enough goals – other than that he is alright.

[Corky]

Not a bad performance, generally boring in some cases, and David Beckham coming on – disgrace.

Why has he gained more caps that Bobby Moore Moore played 90 minutes all the time when Beckham comes on for 10/20 minutes and gains one

He did nothing either apart from take a poor free kick and corner and if everyone bullies Oakley’s, Beckhams are worse! We gained nothing on the right when he replaced Lennon.

In George Bests’ words: Beckham cannot tackle, head the ball, kick it with his left for and generally doesn’t score enough goals – other than that he is alright.

Believe me, I'm not a great fan of Beckham's at all, but last night he sent in the free-kick for the second goal, so he deserves credit for that.

[Alexikokopops]

Not a bad performance, generally boring in some cases, and David Beckham coming on – disgrace.

Why has he gained more caps that Bobby Moore Moore played 90 minutes all the time when Beckham comes on for 10/20 minutes and gains one

He did nothing either apart from take a poor free kick and corner and if everyone bullies Oakley’s, Beckhams are worse! We gained nothing on the right when he replaced Lennon.

In George Bests’ words: Beckham cannot tackle, head the ball, kick it with his left for and generally doesn’t score enough goals – other than that he is alright.

His free kick lead to the winner you cockwand. I don't see why peopel are getting annoyed about Beckham beating Bobby Moore's record. Bobby Moore is remembered as an excellent player and inspirational captain who lead England to World Cup Glory. No one would know he'd held the record if the papers hadn't gone on about it every single time Beckham's name was mentioned.

[StanSP]

His free kick lead to the winner you cockwand. I don't see why peopel are getting annoyed about Beckham beating Bobby Moore's record. Bobby Moore is remembered as an excellent player and inspirational captain who lead England to World Cup Glory. No one would know he'd held the record if the papers hadn't gone on about it every single time Beckham's name was mentioned.

Agreed .

I hate when people moan about Beckham. He's actually quite a talented player and I think people are swung by the media's opinion.

[James.]

I love Beckham.

[Dr The Singh]

I love Beckham.

I love Victoria Beckham!!!

[welck12]

His free kick lead to the winner you cockwand. I don't see why peopel are getting annoyed about Beckham beating Bobby Moore's record. Bobby Moore is remembered as an excellent player and inspirational captain who lead England to World Cup Glory. No one would know he'd held the record if the papers hadn't gone on about it every single time Beckham's name was mentioned.

Or itv mentioning it every 5 seconds as well.

He's a good player, and deserves to be in the current squad on current performances, capello wouldnt have it any other way simple as that

[Matt]

I also didn't agree with what Capello said about Crouch - "He isn't ideal, but the best we have".

TBH I don't mind Crouch think he is slagged off far more than he deserves.

[welck12]

I also didn't agree with what Capello said about Crouch - "He isn't ideal, but the best we have".

TBH I don't mind Crouch think he is slagged off far more than he deserves.

Gotta agree there as well. Not a huge fan of the guy, but when called upon he always seems to do a job

[dandannieldanok]

Strange game, was very much a case of two average teams cancelling each other out. Neither keeper really had many saves to make at all. Ukraine were what I expected, solid and unspectacular but England really struggled to create anything. Some pretty substandard individual performances, most notably Ashley Cole who seems to have forgotten how to pass.

As for Crouch, you cannot argue with his impressive international goal ratio. It slightly pissed me off that so many people on here groaned at his selection, and also Capello's coldness towards him. I would chose Crouch ahead of Heskey, C Cole and Bent every time. I had to laugh every time the commentator made reference to Heskey's pace to get him in behind, must be watching a different player or 10 year old replays.